Edge: Tinkerer (Updated)

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:54 am

The below has been updated regarding cybernetics, range, and ammunition capacity upgrades. For prior discussion on the edge, please see this link (which is now locked, to avoid confusion).

Tinkerer [Iconic]
Requirements: MARS, Combat Cyborg, or Glitter Boy Pilot, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d8+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d8+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or the second Scientific Knowledge skill used to qualify for the Edge, which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 3 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades, provided no Minor Upgrade may be taken more than twice), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

Minor Upgrades

Adding a Minor Upgrade to a device costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 4d6 hours.

+1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
+1 damage to a weapon.
+2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
+1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
Halve the weight of the item (quarter if taken twice).
Apply a mundane Trapping to the device (silver, fire, electricity, etc.)
Apply a tech Trapping to the device (laser, ion, plasma, etc.)
+2 to Stealth checks in a single environment such as urban or woodlands (body armor only, can be taken once for each environment but switching takes an action)
+1 embedded Toughness to a suit of body armor
Add Full Environmental Protection to a suit of body armor.
Reduce a Strength Minimum of armor or weapon by one die type.
+1 to Pace for a suit of body armor.
+2 AP to a weapon (Special: may only be taken once).
+20% to Range of a weapon, rounded up.
+25% to the shot capacity of a weapon.
Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM

Major Upgrades
Installation takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below).

Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge. No Edges requiring an Arcane Background. Edge Rank may not exceed the Rank of the Tinkerer installing the upgrade.)
+1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
Add an upgrade that emulates a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Special: For anything with a strain rating over 1 on the following list, the item costs an additional Minor Upgrade slot. Many cybernetic options are already represented by other Upgrades, and so only the following are allowed with this option: internal life support, secret compartment, ranged data system, targeting eye, audio package, core electronics package, environmental sensors, optics package, signal booster, aquatic mode, booster jets for armor or boots, climbing package, or the ultimate walking tool package. If the system is not integrated into an item with an existing power source, a battery pack must be added, adding a further 5 lbs. to the weight of the device. Battery life is generally 96 hours of continuous use before needing to be recharged (taking 2 hours at any power source). Prerequisites for cybernetic systems added this way must still be met, either by other Upgrades or by cybernetics installed in the user. (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic, 150% of the cost of the cybernetic system, plus 10,000 credits for battery pack, if applicable).
Add an embedded personal weapon or gear to a device. For every twenty pounds (round down) add one die type to the device's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the device.
+50% to Range of a weapon, rounded up (can only be added once)
+50% to shot capacity of a weapon (can only be added once)
Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies)

Post by **Freemage** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:10 am

I'm obviously the odd-man out at this point. I still believe that the pre-req cyberware should be required, so voted Needs Work.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:44 am

This is an example of a PA from Northern Gun 2, built using these rules. Note, this is not how I would normally do this, but it is a way to showcase the limitations of the amount of slots and why requiring prerequisites is punitive in the extreme. I wanted the Expanded Detection and Security Array, but it was limiting adding two iconic features, the bonuses to climb and stealth.

Night Reaper Light Power Armor

Provides +7 M.D.C. Armor and +2 Toughness
Full Environment Protection
Grants the wearer d12+2 Strength and +2 Pace.
The armor, while powered, ignores the d8 Strength Minimum for physical actions but not arcane skill
The suit is restricted to 96 hours of continuous use before needing to be recharged (taking 2 hours at any power source).
This light power armor also provides basic communications (5-mile range) and a full sensor suite with HUD (Heads Up Display) readouts, granting =4 to all sight based Notice checks and +2 on all other Notice checks and incorporating 360 degree radar, thermal imaging, and night vision; optics enhancement with 50× magnification and audio pickups that can catch whispers at 100 yards; and onboard combat computers and targeting systems that offset up to −2 Shooting penalties and can be calibrated to prevent friendly fire.
Climb Grippers: The palm of the hands, each finger and the boots of the Night Reaper armor have small, extendible and retractable spikes designed to help the wearer scale walls and climb surfaces (walls, towers, trees, cliff facings, etc.). The spikes are much too tiny and short to be used as a weapon, but they do provide +1 to Climbing checks.
Soft Soles and Stealth Features: The soles of this light power armor are rubber treads, providing extra grip against most surfaces (the gripper spikes above, above, extend through small holes in the rubber soles). The rubber also cushions footsteps to make the footfalls much quieter and sneaking around possible without the loud, heavy clunks and clanks of most other power armor. Moreover, fabric and padding is laid over and between armor plates to soften the sounds of all movement. This provides +1 to stealth.

Build Info

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:01 am

Voted needs work. I totally get that you don't want TW to access this, but I think you need to go the route of who can access this instead. Probably MARS operators and Psi-operators? Flat out saying TW cannot take just in not how SW and SR edges are written.

Good to see the range and capacity stuff added in... Man percentages look weird. How would 5 ( for both capacity and range) look for the minor and 10 for the major look? My only really problem is if you can do this kind of thing with vehicle weapons those two increments become next to useless.

Curious, for the cybernetic options do you need to meet the prerequist cybernetic as well?

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:19 am

Valid on the range thing, but as mentioned it becomes useless for vehicle weapon ranges

Also, as for cybernetics, it’s needlessly punitive to require prereqs. They are equivalent systems that do a similar job. A laser dot system on a rifle that reduces range based penalties does NOT need optics. For the power armor I did, it did. Application and trappings matter more than arbitrary prereqs.

As for the edge, TWs should not have all the flipping tools!!! If you make it MARs only, characters like Billy Borg in the 99s can’t get it and it is 100% concept appropriate.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:23 am

High Command wrote:Valid on the range thing, but as mentioned it becomes useless for vehicle weapon ranges

Also, as for cybernetics, it’s needlessly punitive to require prereqs. They are equivalent systems that do a similar job. A laser dot system on a rifle that reduces range based penalties does NOT need optics. For the power armor I did, it did. Application and trappings matter more than arbitrary prereqs.

As for the edge, TWs should not have all the flipping tools!!! If you make it MARs only, characters like Billy Borg in the 99s can’t get it and it is 100% concept appropriate.

I really don't know what to tell you man. Edges are built with requirements. Look at the iconics, they specifically state who can take the edge, not who cannot. I am pretty sure this is iconic to the operator and psi-operator yes?

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:24 am

I went with percentages over points for range because the points were tough to apply broadly: a 5 point boost (for example) seems big on a pistol but entirely inconsequential on a rifle.

Power Drain is limited to non-Weird Scientists, but I see your point. I personally don't want to limit this to any particular collection of frameworks (a Glitter Boy pilot with a lot of points in science and repair could be handy with this Edge, for example). I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

As written, the Cybernetics don't require prerequisites. They aren't true cybernetics, and the increased cost, battery requirement, and limited number of upgrading slots help to balance that.

Edit: Power Drain = Soul Drain.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:30 am

Pursuit wrote:I went with percentages over points for range because the points were tough to apply broadly: a 5 point boost (for example) seems big on a pistol but entirely inconsequential on a rifle.

Power Drain is limited to non-Weird Scientists, but I see your point. I personally don't want to limit this to any particular collection of frameworks (a Glitter Boy pilot with a lot of points in science and repair could be handy with this Edge, for example). I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

As written, the Cybernetics don't require prerequisites. They aren't true cybernetics, and the increased cost, battery requirement, and limited number of upgrading slots help to balance that.

Edit: Power Drain = Soul Drain.

I am not really sure why a TW could not take it. By definition they could be super scientists with their arcane background weird science. Sure they use and understand magic, but why couldn't they understand pure super science as well?

Could we please try it without restricting TW and maybe change the major capacity to 50%?

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:38 am

As much as I don't like it, Jon is right. This covers Rogue Scientist, Psi-Operators, Operators, and CS Tech Officers easily. So:

Tinkerer [Iconic]
Requirements: MARS, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Code: Select all

[b][size=150]Tinkerer[/size][/b] [Iconic]
[u]Requirements[/u]: MARS, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:39 am

oh is one other scientific knowledge, kn science? Or is it also kn engineering, kn electronics? but definitely not kn arcana?

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:48 am

Pender Lumkiss wrote:oh is one other scientific knowledge, kn science? Or is it also kn engineering, kn electronics? but definitely not kn arcana?

Any science based knowledge skill will work. Electronics would work as a subset of K (Science). I keft the wording as-is per the replies on the other thread, but can change it to clarify if helpful.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:49 am

Pursuit wrote:
Pender Lumkiss wrote:oh is one other scientific knowledge, kn science? Or is it also kn engineering, kn electronics? but definitely not kn arcana?
Any science based knowledge skill will work. Electronics would work as a subset of K (Science). I keft the wording as-is per the results on the other thread.

I only ask, because there is no kn physics, kn chemistry, kn geology... There is just kn science.

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:50 am

High Command wrote:As much as I don't like it, Jon is right. This covers Rogue Scientist, Psi-Operators, Operators, and CS Tech Officers easily. So:

Tinkerer [Iconic]
Requirements: MARS, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.
Code: Select all
[b][size=150]Tinkerer[/size][/b] [Iconic]
[u]Requirements[/u]: MARS, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

I really want to keep this open to other frameworks (Billy Borg comes to mind). Is there a way to reconcile this that wouldn't exclude them?

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:52 am

Pender Lumkiss wrote:
Pursuit wrote:
Pender Lumkiss wrote:oh is one other scientific knowledge, kn science? Or is it also kn engineering, kn electronics? but definitely not kn arcana?
Any science based knowledge skill will work. Electronics would work as a subset of K (Science). I keft the wording as-is per the results on the other thread.
I only ask, because there is no kn physics, kn chemistry, kn geology... There is just kn science.

Sure there are. You can choose a more specialized knowledge if you want. Heck, SWD specifically uses an example about K biology vs K science on page 25.

Post by **Radecliffe** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:07 pm

Well, as to access the Upgrade Iconic edge includes both MARS and Borgs so there is precedent if desired.

As to knowledge skills that goes back to the core book.

Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer's Edition pp 25 wrote:Knowledge is a catch-all skill that must have a focus of some sort, such as Knowledge (Occult) or Knowledge (Science). The player can choose the focus of his character’s knowledge, which might reflect his background and education. The skill can be taken multiple times with different focuses to reflect different areas of expertise. An archaeologist, for example, should have Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Archaeology). General focuses such as Knowledge (Science) are acceptable, but the GM should give a bonus to a character who has a focus more relevant to a particular task, such as using Knowledge (Biology) to identify a plant or animal. Some Common Knowledge focuses are: Area Knowledge, Battle (used in Mass Battles, see Savage Worlds page 106), Computers, Electronics, History, Journalism, various languages, Law, Medicine (though actually caring for someone is the Healing skill), or Science.

Now if you are arguing the entry in the TLPG overwrites this and there is only Knowledge(Science) I certainly don't have a problem with that. i do think there are some characters out there that have skills like Knowledge(Biology) or Knowledge(Physics) that should be allowed to qualify regardless.

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:16 pm

Radecliffe wrote:Well, as to access the Upgrade Iconic edge includes both MARS and Borgs so there is precedent if desired.

Good point. I've got borgs and GB pilots on my wish list. With those and MARS, I might be there.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 pm

Pursuit wrote:
Radecliffe wrote:Well, as to access the Upgrade Iconic edge includes both MARS and Borgs so there is precedent if desired.
Good point. I've got borgs and GB pilots on my wish list. With those and MARS, I might be there.

Thats fine too. MARS, Borg, and GB

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 pm

I will go ahead and say I will blanket approve anything proposed. Because I do not feel any of them have been break the game broken and the minutia of repeating views is not worth reading 10 more times.

please lets make the pain end.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:28 pm

so?

Tinkerer [Iconic]
Requirements: MARS or Glitter Boy or Combat Cyborg, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Code: Select all

[b][size=150]Tinkerer[/size][/b] [Iconic]
[u]Requirements[/u]: MARS or Glitter Boy or Combat Cyborg, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:29 pm

What about a Glitter Boy or Cyborg would make them have access to this iconic edge?

Neither one is iconic for being a super technician. That is literally what MARS is for.

Edit: Note I still approve just to get this thing done with so I can make my Drone with Tinkerer to be Ndreare's sidekick.

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:34 pm

RFT wrote:What about a Glitter Boy or Cyborg would make them have access to this iconic edge?

Those IFs are supremely tech based, and it makes sense (to me) that they could be extremely gifted with it (and by way of support for this idea, they gave the Glitter Boy Pilot Mr. Fix-It in Savage Foes).

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:35 pm

High Command wrote:so?

Tinkerer [Iconic]
Requirements: MARS or Glitter Boy or Combat Cyborg, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.
Code: Select all
[b][size=150]Tinkerer[/size][/b] [Iconic]
[u]Requirements[/u]: MARS or Glitter Boy or Combat Cyborg, Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This tinkerer may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Updated.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:37 pm

Pursuit wrote:
RFT wrote:What about a Glitter Boy or Cyborg would make them have access to this iconic edge?
Those IFs are supremely tech based, and it makes sense (to me) that they could be extremely gifted with it (and by way of support for this idea, they gave the Glitter Boy Pilot Mr. Fix-It in Savage Foes).

Not buying it, but still approving it.

TW cannot do this, but some glorified power armor jock can?

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:43 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:Could we please try it without restricting TW and maybe change the major capacity to 50%?

Updated capacity.

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:00 pm

Updated language regarding the knowledge skill to avoid possible confusion.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:08 pm

Looking pretty good. Does anyone think the knowledge skills are a bit too low? I get that the edge is Tinker, not master crafter or engineer, but what the character can do is more than just some minor modifications. Scholar requires the kn to be at least a d8, this seems to be a pretty honcho edge in terms of what it can do. Any thoughts about making the kn skills a d10?

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:09 pm

And updated to clarify Rank of the Edges. Hopefully we are now close?

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:10 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:Looking pretty good. Does anyone think the knowledge skills are a bit too low? I get that the edge is Tinker, not master crafter or engineer, but what the character can do is more than just some minor modifications. Scholar requires the kn to be at least a d8, this seems to be a pretty honcho edge in terms of what it can do. Any thoughts about making the kn skills a d10?

I based the requirements on the Gadgeteer Edge. I could maybe be talked into a d8, but d10 is darn high, especially for three skills.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:13 pm

Pursuit wrote:
Pender Lumkiss wrote:Looking pretty good. Does anyone think the knowledge skills are a bit too low? I get that the edge is Tinker, not master crafter or engineer, but what the character can do is more than just some minor modifications. Scholar requires the kn to be at least a d8, this seems to be a pretty honcho edge in terms of what it can do. Any thoughts about making the kn skills a d10?
I based the requirements on the Gadgeteer Edge. I could maybe be talked into a d8, but d10 is darn high, especially for three skills.

When the words Techie savant are in their I don't expect a d6 in kn skills. Lets roll out the d8s.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:17 pm

There's a reason I took out the word techie-savant in my version, and replace it with "tinkerer".

That said, let's get it done so we can approve it. d8s

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:19 pm

High Command wrote:There's a reason I took out the word techie-savant in my version, and replace it with "tinkerer".

That said, let's get it done so we can approve it. d8s

I didn't catch that.

Ok, d8s.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:30 pm

changed to approve. Looks really fun!

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:31 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:changed to approve. Looks really fun!

Woot!

Post by **Radecliffe** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:26 pm

The range and shot capacity should probably be a one time limitation. Unless boom guns with a range of 2500" (+150% range) is ok?

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:34 pm

Radecliffe wrote:The range and shot capacity should probably be a one time limitation. Unless boom guns with a range of 2500" (+150% range) is ok?

As a note, no matter how it was approved or how many EP, i would never allow modification of the GB/Boom Gun in a game I am running.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:52 pm

RFT wrote:As a note, no matter how it was approved or how many EP, i would never allow modification of the GB/Boom Gun in a game I am running.

I kinda agree with this lol

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:00 pm

High Command wrote:
RFT wrote:As a note, no matter how it was approved or how many EP, i would never allow modification of the GB/Boom Gun in a game I am running.
I kinda agree with this lol

Oh, gosh. Yeah, no.

Post by **Corrigon** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:22 pm

But more damage, bigger blast radius.

Post by **Pursuit** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:47 pm

Corrigon wrote:But more damage, bigger blast radius.

Stop that.

For what it's worth, this particular case would probably be covered by the "needs GM approval beforehand" bit.

Post by **Freemage** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:11 pm

The notion that the extra cost of the mods somehow balances out the pre-reqs is, I'm sorry, just flat-out wrong.

Once again, the hard numbers:

Cyberware Crack-Shot Suite: Optics Package + Targeting Eye + One Level of RDS: 92,000 Cr and 3 Strain

Tinkerer Crack-Shot Suite: Targeting Eye + One Level of RDS + Alertness Edge: 48,000 Cr and 3 Mod Slots

You don't even have to stick this on your armor--put it on the gun as a scope, and you can mod your armor with whatever you want (for the example suit above, I'd suggest the Thief Edge, and an additional +2 to both Climbing and Stealth. That additional 40,000 Cr for the mods barely pushes the total mod cost (for both the crack-shot combo and the ninja combo) to higher than just the Cybernetic crack-shot set up, and makes the armor infinitely more effective at the stuff it is supposed to be iconic for.

For the remaining functionality of the Optics Package, you can use a videocamera to take home movies if you want. The true value of the Optics Package is that it is the gateway to two of the best Cybernetics in the game (note that it's fully 150% of the value of the Auditory Package, which gives equivalent bonuses on hearing-based things, but has no gateway function).

The existence of this bypass immediately makes the Targeting and RDS cybernetics obsolete, since this is both cheaper and less invasive (not to mention being useable by cyber-resistant races). Anyone who gets those two mods as cyberware in a setting with this rule is a chump.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:55 pm

<= Chump

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:07 am

Sparky wrote:<= Chump

Are you saying your character would go for the cybernetic eye package even if the tinkerer version was available to be slapped onto a gun or suit of armor? Because I have to ask, "Why?"

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:13 am

I got to say I understand both sides to this. Why not try to play it as close to rules as written? I know it might not make sense logically to require prerequisite cybernetics, but thats how the rules are set up. I realize you are not technically putting in cybernetics, just additions that are using the cybernetics for the mechanics, but it is still effectively the same thing.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:22 am

Specifically to answer one question I've seen several variations on:

The RDS and the Targeting Eye aren't just a matter of placing a reticule over the target. They're specifically designed to work with the enhanced visual capabilities of the Optics Package--zoom (magnification), and hyper-clarity (+2 visual notice) being key there. The whole of the system is working literally faster than the human eye can manage. A targeting eye mod without some sort of equivalent visual enhancement to the optics package is called a "site", and it's already at the end of your gun barrel. Would the RDS be meant to be able to stack with the standard Integrated Scope that comes on weapons? Because if so, that would also argue that the extra visual acuity is needed.

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:16 am

Freemage wrote:
Sparky wrote:<= Chump
Are you saying your character would go for the cybernetic eye package even if the tinkerer version was available to be slapped onto a gun or suit of armor? Because I have to ask, "Why?"

Partly because I get benefits from the prerequisite cybernetics that I actually want.

If I put the cybernetic stuff in my armor (or scope or whatever) means I can't use those slots for something else!

Using this system adding the targeting eye system would use up all three major slots available to the item. That seems overly punitive to me.

The targeting eye in particular is actually a little worse than the bonus you can get from the body armor HJ table where most of the other mods are coming from. Result 16-17 gives body armor a +2 to all ranged attacks, period. There is no calibration round. 99% of the time the systems would funcion identically. If, however, the guy with the HJ version had to pick a weapon up off the ground he could start shooting immediately while the person with the cybernetic emulated targeting system would have to spend a round calibrating before getting the bonus. The targeting system also only applies to shooting rolls while the HJ version also includes throwing attacks given that version includes all range attacks. So basing the system on the targeting eye is actually a step back from where it could have gone.

I think that is the important term too. These are systems that emulate cybernetic systems rather than cybernetic systems themselves and many of the effects can for the most part be simulated more or less in other ways besides cybernetics. Using the cybernetic gear just gives everyone an easy frame of reference.

Personally, though I was just has happy with Tinkerer before they started adding in the cybernetic stuff. But if it is going to be in there I'd prefer it to be in a usable form even if I don't end up using that particular part.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:40 am

Except that this would actually stack on top of the HJ table results, so using those as a comparison is a moot point, whether it's as cyberware or a Tinkerer mod.

We're discussing opportunity costs when talking about the mod slots--but the 3 Strain is also an opportunity cost, against a hard total that can't be swapped around at will. You'd be far better off using three strain for (for instance) Cy-Wi Reflexes and a Skill port chip. that'll give you +4DT--which means that if you're already at d12, you can get to a d12+4 shooting, and then drop this mod on your armor to get d12+6. Use the mods to the gun to add more shooting bonuses, and a d12+10 is well within reach.

Actually, here's a question--can cybernetics themselves be modded by this? Could you mod out a weapon, then install it as normal cyberware, to get the best of all worlds?

Post by **Corrigon** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:45 am

As a related question, do the HJ rolls count towards mod totals?

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:35 am

Corrigon wrote:As a related question, do the HJ rolls count towards mod totals?

HJ is it's own animal and would not count against upgrade slots.

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:45 am

Freemage wrote:Actually, here's a question--can cybernetics themselves be modded by this? Could you mod out a weapon, then install it as normal cyberware, to get the best of all worlds?

I think the answer to this one is "maybe". Sticking one of these tinkered with weapons into your body would probably take one heck of a cyber-doc (easier to mess up a heavily customized ion blaster than a stock model from NG, which should probably apply a penalty to the surgery) and, once installed, it would be harder to repair (that -2 isn't just for show). From there, it's probably up to the GM and the player to figure out what makes sense, but it should require some solid role playing.

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:53 am

Freemage wrote:Specifically to answer one question I've seen several variations on:

The RDS and the Targeting Eye aren't just a matter of placing a reticule over the target. They're specifically designed to work with the enhanced visual capabilities of the Optics Package--zoom (magnification), and hyper-clarity (+2 visual notice) being key there. The whole of the system is working literally faster than the human eye can manage. A targeting eye mod without some sort of equivalent visual enhancement to the optics package is called a "site", and it's already at the end of your gun barrel. Would the RDS be meant to be able to stack with the standard Integrated Scope that comes on weapons? Because if so, that would also argue that the extra visual acuity is needed.

You can get several weapons with scopes that negate 2 points of range penalties already, so I see the RDS as less of a concern; if a scope can work on a JA-9, it should be able to work on another rifle, too.

As far as the targeting eye, what if we just drop it from the list? If you want to boost your Shooting, use a Minor slot for a +1 or a Major for a die type increase.

Would that ease some of your concerns?

Edit: Re-reading your post, I see your question about scopes. I saw the RDS as more of a scope already, personally, and would probably not stack them. Again, if it's a sticking point, I'm in favor of dropping it and letting people just install scopes from the SPC or SFC or whichever companion they're in, or just install ones that match the Juicer weapon (and Coalition) built in scopes.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:28 am

If it's allowed to drop a modded weapon into a cyber-weapon slot, remember that the Upgrade Edge is a thing. Buy the weapon, use the Edge, bypass all those messy rolls--that's the whole point of the Edge.

Note that the RDS can have two levels, so it clearly can go beyond the level of a scope.

As for eliminating the targeting eye, it would solve the problem sort-of, since that's literally half of the things on the list that even have a prerequisite. At which point, I REALLY don't see why just keeping the pre-reqs would be an issue in comparison to cutting it entirely.

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:37 am

Freemage wrote:If it's allowed to drop a modded weapon into a cyber-weapon slot, remember that the Upgrade Edge is a thing. Buy the weapon, use the Edge, bypass all those messy rolls--that's the whole point of the Edge.

Note that the RDS can have two levels, so it clearly can go beyond the level of a scope.

As for eliminating the targeting eye, it would solve the problem sort-of, since that's literally half of the things on the list that even have a prerequisite. At which point, I REALLY don't see why just keeping the pre-reqs would be an issue in comparison to cutting it entirely.

I just offered to drop both the targeting eye and RDS, for the record, but I guess if adding prerequisites gets you there instead, it's 6 of one. HC, your thoughts? Let folks increase shooting via existing mods and deal with range via scopes?

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:13 am

Pursuit wrote:
Freemage wrote:If it's allowed to drop a modded weapon into a cyber-weapon slot, remember that the Upgrade Edge is a thing. Buy the weapon, use the Edge, bypass all those messy rolls--that's the whole point of the Edge.

Note that the RDS can have two levels, so it clearly can go beyond the level of a scope.

As for eliminating the targeting eye, it would solve the problem sort-of, since that's literally half of the things on the list that even have a prerequisite. At which point, I REALLY don't see why just keeping the pre-reqs would be an issue in comparison to cutting it entirely.
I just offered to drop both the targeting eye and RDS, for the record, but I guess if adding prerequisites gets you there instead, it's 6 of one. HC, your thoughts? Let folks increase shooting via existing mods and deal with range via scopes?

Ok, how about we add in the pre-req language and add a Major Upgrade scope option.

Insofar as it applies, I also would not require the Core Electronics Package as a prereq for anything that already has a computer built in (some body armor suits, for example, or an actual field computer).

I will admit that I don’t feel as strongly about the cybernetics as some others, so I’m wiling to defer. But if we can make the Edge something more people are happy with without forcing major revisions, I think that’s worthwhile.

Post by **High Command** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:40 am

There are no scopes that can be purchased in core SR rules. Period. Show me one. There are some we can extrapolate from SFC, the entries in the weapons table, and Classic, but not ACTUAL scopes you can separately purchase. What I can purchase is the TW optics band which gives me access to multiple powers if I am a AB user. What I can buy is the Infrared Distancing Binoculars. I used Optics and RDS to approximate some of the features of power armor onto my light power armor concept. but I could just as easily trap RDS as a laser dot system that automatically reads distance and provides a visual cue to where the rifle is pointing. Its 100% valid and there are NO optics involved aside from the pointing laser itself. Note, this is a feature of the Infrared Distancing Binoculars too. The only kicker is, they lack the -2 to shooting penalties. I'm sorry, but you're being WAY too punitive over a perceived imbalance. Create something broken and I'll consider it, but absent a creation that showcases this being broken, I will not accept it. The slots are TOO limited. You give up too much for it to be truly broken.

In fact one creation I might build with that mod in mind would be a version of the Naruni Plasma Sniper Rifle. I take a NG-E4A, with the RDS trapped as a targeting laser (one major), Increase Range by 50% (one major), Rock and Roll, Trapped as a deployable bipod (one major) and +2 to shooting (2 Minors)

I have a plasma rifle with 3d10+3 damage, ROF 3 with no autofire penalty, as long as I stay put, range of 45/90/180, +2 to shooting, and eliminating 2 points of range or other shooting penalties. Is this powerful? Sure, but it's also DAMN expensive and can just as easily be used by the GM as the player. I can also do almost all of it completely intrinsic to a character, so its not game breaking, and more to the point, the like bonuses would not stack. You don't get benefit from the same type of bonus twice. Just because I have a deployable bipod granting Rock and Roll, and I have Rock and Roll, it does not follow that I somehow get an improved version of Rock and Roll. I just get Rock and Roll. If I am using that rifle with a suit of power armor that has the equivalent of RDS or a cybernetic shooter with RDS, they don't get both.

As for targeting eye, sure, remove it. Its a fair point you can get +1 to shooting with minor mods.

As for HJ taking up these mods? No, they wouldn't. But that is true of one being modded by TW as well, if its being done in game. So that is a straw-man argument, at best.

Can cybernetics themselves be modded? I would not allow it. I might allow modified weapon to be implanted, but that is a very different conversation. And it would involve penalties for the implanting cyber-doc, who unless its a PC will not generally be a wild card.

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:49 am

High Command wrote:There are no scopes that can be purchased in core SR rules. Period. Show me one. There are some we can extrapolate from SFC, the entries in the weapons table, and Classic, but not ACTUAL scopes you can separately purchase. What I can purchase is the TW optics band which gives me access to multiple powers if I am a AB user. What I can buy is the Infrared Distancing Binoculars. I used Optics and RDS to approximate some of the features of power armor onto my light power armor concept. but I could just as easily trap RDS as a laser dot system that automatically reads distance and provides a visual cue to where the rifle is pointing. Its 100% valid and there are NO optics involved aside from the pointing laser itself. Note, this is a feature of the Infrared Distancing Binoculars too. The only kicker is, they lack the -2 to shooting penalties. I'm sorry, but you're being WAY too punitive over a perceived imbalance. Create something broken and I'll consider it, but absent a creation that showcases this being broken, I will not accept it. The slots are TOO limited. You give up too much for it to be truly broken.

In fact one creation I might build with that mod in mind would be a version of the Naruni Plasma Sniper Rifle. I take a NG-E4A, with the RDS trapped as a targeting laser (one major), Increase Range by 50% (one major), Rock and Roll, Trapped as a deployable bipod (one major) and +2 to shooting (2 Minors)

I have a plasma rifle with 3d10+3 damage, ROF 3 with no autofire penalty, as long as I stay put, range of 45/90/180, +2 to shooting, and eliminating 2 points of range or other shooting penalties. Is this powerful? Sure, but it's also DAMN expensive and can just as easily be used by the GM as the player. I can also do almost all of it completely intrinsic to a character, so its not game breaking, and more to the point, the like bonuses would not stack. You don't get benefit from the same type of bonus twice. Just because I have a deployable bipod granting Rock and Roll, and I have Rock and Roll, it does not follow that I somehow get an improved version of Rock and Roll. I just get Rock and Roll. If I am using that rifle with a suit of power armor that has the equivalent of RDS or a cybernetic shooter with RDS, they don't get both.

As for targeting eye, sure, remove it. Its a fair point you can get +1 to shooting with minor mods.

As for HJ taking up these mods? No, they wouldn't. But that is true of one being modded by TW as well, if its being done in game. So that is a straw-man argument, at best.

Can cybernetics themselves be modded? I would not allow it. I might allow modified weapon to be implanted, but that is a very different conversation. And it would involve penalties for the implanting cyber-doc, who unless its a PC will not generally be a wild card.

As far as scopes go, I was suggesting that we add a scope option to the upgrade list, not that you could already get one.

That said, Freemage, do you see a point where you would be comfortable supporting the Edge with the targeting eye removed but without the pre-reqs? If there isn’t a compromise that works for both you and HC, then there isn’t one and that’s fine, too. At this point, I don’t want to make a ton more changes (we have filled up two threads on just this Edge, and that’s not counting all the other conversations about similar rules/edges!)

Post by **High Command** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:21 am

Here, just put in that cybernetic systems need pre-reqs. I've got scopes handled below. Just get it done for god's sake.

There are the scopes in SFC. We'll just use them. I split the modifiable entry into two separate entries. I added these to the armory. They are literally out of SFC, so it's balanced. I removed the bit about Extreme ranges, since those rules are not Core. Personally I'd make them Minor, but whatever everyone else says will work. If someone wants to include them, they can use the integrated gear option. Or simply bolt it onto the rifle with a repair roll. I priced them as per Rifts pricing, like so much else in TLPG.

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:50 am

High Command wrote:Here, just put in that cybernetic systems need pre-reqs. I've got scopes handled below. Just get it done for god's sake.

There are the scopes in SFC. We'll just use them. I split the modifiable entry into two separate entries. I added these to the armory. They are literally out of SFC, so it's balanced. I removed the bit about Extreme ranges, since those rules are not Core. Personally I'd make them Minor, but whatever everyone else says will work. If someone wants to include them, they can use the integrated gear option. Or simply bolt it onto the rifle with a repair roll.

Ok, there we go. Prereqs are in. Freemage, does this move you from “needs work” to “approved”?

And, if so, is 5 GMs saying “yay” enough to close debate on this?

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:42 am

I find pre-reqs too punitive to make the emulation of cybernetic systems useful, as HC says there aren't enough slots, but that function was not what I wanted Tinkerer for anyway. The rest of it is pretty damn awesome in my opinion. I appreciate all the effort that has gone into this.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:28 pm

I totally am fine with SFC scopes being approved at the x10 price conversion. I don't even consider that to be a Mod, actually, it's just a thing you buy and attach to a gun, per the rules. A scope would STACK with an emulated RDS, since they're different pieces of equipment, actually (meaning that with two levels of RDS emulation, plus a Scope, you're at 6 points of penalties gone).

And yes, at that point, I'm good. Will change my vote posthaste.

Post by **Pursuit** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:31 pm

Freemage wrote:I totally am fine with SFC scopes being approved at the x10 price conversion. I don't even consider that to be a Mod, actually, it's just a thing you buy and attach to a gun, per the rules. A scope would STACK with an emulated RDS, since they're different pieces of equipment, actually (meaning that with two levels of RDS emulation, plus a Scope, you're at 6 points of penalties gone).

And yes, at that point, I'm good. Will change my vote posthaste.

Great!

Yeah, I left scopes off the list, but HC put them in the armory if anyone wants to buy them.

Post by **High Command** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:46 pm

For the record I used Rifts prices, which are still substantial

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:01 pm

seems like this can be moved yes?

Post by **High Command** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:49 pm

Moved with minor edits (phrasing and splitting it into rules and an edge)

Rules: http://savagerifts.com/sr/viewtopic.php ... 899#p28899

and

Edge: http://savagerifts.com/sr/viewtopic.php ... 901#p28901

GMs Vote Please