Bandito Arms Weapons, Armor, and Equipment

Post by **High Command** » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:48 pm

Catalog here: http://savagerifts.com/sr/viewtopic.php ... 710#p26705

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Post by **High Command** » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:48 pm

Sidearms

BigBore Weapons[/size][/u][/b][/center]

BigBore BB-2 "Holdout" Derringer

Uses the BigBore "Revolver" Round.
Range: 5/10/20
Damage: 2d6+4, MD, AP: 0
ROF: 1
Shots: 2
Weight: 1 lbs.
Cost: 4,500
Notes: Uses the BigBore "Revolver" Round, BigBore Knockdown, Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d6
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 137-138

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BigBore BB-4 "Magnum" revolver

Uses the BigBore "Shotgun" Round.
Range: 8/16/32
Damage: 3d6+4, MD, AP: 0
ROF: 1, Revolver
Shots: 4
Weight: 4 lbs.
Cost: 12,000
Notes: Uses the BigBore "Shotgun" Round, BigBore Knockdown, Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d8
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 138

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Bandito BB-6 BigBore Revolver

Uses the BigBore "Revolver" Round.
Range: 8/16/32
Damage: 2d6+4, MD, AP: 0
ROF: 1, Revolver
Shots: 6
Weight: 4 lbs.
Cost: 6,500
Notes: Uses the BigBore "Revolver" Round, BigBore Knockdown, Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d6
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 174

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BigBore "Buccaneer" Breech-Lock Pistol

Uses the BigBore "Revolver" Round.
Range: 8/16/32
Damage: 2d6+4, MD, AP: 0
ROF: 1
Shots: 1
Weight: 3 lbs.
Cost: 2,500
Notes: Uses the BigBore "Revolver" Round, BigBore Knockdown, Intimidating Weapon
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 138

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Laser Weapons Bandito LP-1W Laser Pistol

Range: 15/30/60
Damage: 2d6+1, AP: 2
ROF: 1, Revolver
Shots: 20
Weight: 2 lbs.
Cost: 20,000
Notes:
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 173-174

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LP-2W Laser Pistol

Range: 18/36/72
Damage: 2d6, AP 2
RoF: 1
Shots: 18 shots from a standard short E-Clip, 36 shots with a long E-Clip.
Weight: 2 lbs.
Notes: Semi-Auto, +1 to Shooting rolls.
Cost: 17,000 credits.
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 145

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LP-3D Dual-Shot Laser Pistol

Range: 18/36/72
Damage: 2d6+1, AP 2
RoF: 2, Semi-Auto, 3RB
Shots: 18 single shots from a standard short E-Clip, 36 with a long E-Clip.
Weight: 3 lbs
Cost: 17,000 credits.
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 145

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LP-5D Laser Pulse Pistol

Range: 12/24/48
Damage: 2d6+1, AP 2
RoF: 3, 3RB
Shots: 18 single shots from a standard short E-Clip, 36 with a long E-Clip.
Weight: 4 lbs
Cost: 24,000 credits.
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 145-146

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Ion Weapons

Bandito IP-10 Ion Pistol

Range: 10/20/40
Damage: 1–3d6, AP —
ROF: 1, Revolver
Shots: 12
Weight: 3 lbs.
Cost: 12,000
Notes:
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 173-174

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IP- 12D Ion Pistol

Range: 10/20/40
Damage: 1-3d6
RoF: 1, Semi-Automatic
Shots: 10 shots from a standard short E-Clip, 20 shots with a long E-Clip.
Weight: 3 lbs.
Notes: Reduce non-vision based penalties to hit by 1.
Cost: 10000
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 144-145

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IP-15P Heavy Ion Pistol

Range: 12/24/48
Damage: 1–3d6+1
RoF: 1
Shots: 8 shots from a standard short E-Clip, 16 shots with a long E-Clip.
Weight: 4
Cost: 15,000
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 145

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Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:48 pm

BigBore Weapons
Bandit BigBore "Mule" Sawed-Off

Bandit BigBore "BB Long-Barrel" Shotgun

BigBore "Privateer" Breech-Lock Musket

BigBore "Homesteader" Light Shotgun

BigBore "Last Stand" Scattergun

Range: 5/10/20
Damage: 3d8, MD, SBT, AP: 0
ROF: 1
Shots: 1; Requires five BigBore Shotgun rounds for one full load. Anything less treat as a ROF 2, 3, or 4 attack against one target. This also incurs a -2 penalty in addition to the autofire penalty due to the unbalanced firing profile.
Weight: 20 lbs.
Cost: 20,500 credits
Notes: Uses the BigBore "Shotgun" Round, BigBore Knockdown, Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d10
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 139-140

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BigBore "Lawman" Automatic Shotgun

BigBore "Barking Dog" Sub machine-Gun

BigBore "Universal" Variable Assault Rifle

Laser Weapons
LR-7D Laser Rifle - NG-L5 - 21500

LPR-9M Laser Pulse Rifle - Wilk' s 457 - 30,500 credits.

LR-10P-VLE Variable Light Frequency Laser Rifle - Wilk's 557 VFALR "Chameleon." - 28,500 credits.

Ion Weapons
IPR-16D Ion Pulse Rifle - NG-IP7 Ion Pulse Rifle - 24000

Post by **High Command** » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:49 pm

BigBore Weapons BigBore "Room Sweeper" Belt-Fed Shotgun

BigBore "Fire Hose" SAW - Squad Assault Weapon

Bandit 5000 "Big Bear" BigBore Rail Gun

Range: 75/150/300
Damage: 3d6, MD, AP: 0
ROF: 2 (measured in 3-round bursts)
Shots: Standard Ammo Drum Backpack: 20 3-round bursts. A Cyborg Ammo Drum backpack holds 80 3-round bursts, but weighs an additional 22 pounds (10 kg). The E-Clip can fire 160 bursts before needing to be replaced.
Weight: 25 lbs.
Cost: 50,000 credits
Notes: Uses the BigBore "Revolver" Round, BigBore Knockdown, Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d10
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 175-176

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Bandit 5050 "Papa Bear" Enhanced BigBore Medium Rail Gun

Range: 75/150/300
Damage: 4d6, MD, AP: 0
ROF: 2 (measured in 3-round bursts)
Shots: Standard Ammo Drum Backpack: 60 3-round bursts. A Cyborg Ammo Drum backpack holds 80 3-round bursts. The E-Clip can fire 160 bursts before needing to be replaced.
Weight: Gun 27 lbs, including the weight of the E-Clip. Standard ammo pack (180 rounds) weighs 42 lbs ( 19 kg). The cyborg ammo pack (240 rounds) weighs 64 lbs (28.8 kg).
Cost: 65,500 credits
Notes: Uses the BigBore "Shotgun" Round, BigBore Knockdown, Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d12, Snapfire
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 142-143

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Bandit 5070 BigBore "Big Dog" Automated Sentry Gun

Flechette Weapons
Bandit 5500 "Cactus Juicer" Flechette Rail Gun

Range: 75/150/300
Damage: 3d8, MD, AP: 4, SBT
ROF: 2 (measured in 6-round bursts)
Shots: 7 6-round bursts; A large, backpack ammo drum holds 30 6-round bursts, but weighs an additional 30 pounds (13.6 kg). The E-Clip can fire 160 bursts.
Weight: 30 lbs.
Cost: 58,000
Notes: Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d12
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg.176

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RG-14-LX "Baby Boom Gun" Light, Rapid Acceleration Electromagnetic Rail Gun

This amazing weapon is a scaled down version of the original, made of inferior (read normal MDC) materials, and firing the infamous flechette canister at subsonic speeds. While loud (it can be heard a mile away or more, depending on ambient sound levels), it does not have the range, power, or collateral damage of the original. Still it has its uses as a cannon of some power.

Range: 100/200/400
Damage: 3d8+4, AP 10, SBT, Mega Damage
ROF: 1 (see Digging In)
Digging In: If not mounted on a vehicle of significant bulk, can only be fired in a prone position; Getting into position to fire, known as digging in, is an action. Firing the Baby Boom Gun without these measures knocks the shooter 1d6" back and prone, leaving the character Shaken. Once dug in, the character cannot move and can only fire to the front and sides (180 degrees). Digging in makes the shooter an easier target, attackers gain a +2 to attack rolls against the character while dug in.
Shots: 100
Weight: Baby Boom Gun: 350 lbs (1 57.5 kg), plus ammo. Self Feeding Ammo Canister: 55 lbs (24.7 kg).
Cost: 550,500 credits for the Baby Boom Gun. An empty ammo canister costs 10,000 credits. Uses traditional Boom Gun canister shells.
Notes: Intimidating Weapon, Mods: 3
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 148-149

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Explosive Weapons
Bandit 6000 Grenade Launcher

Range: 60/120/240
Damage: Grenade
RoF: 1
Shots: 12; an additional 50 grenades are packed into the ammo-drum.
Weight: Gun: 40 lbs, plus the grenade drum, 20 lbs. — can be used with or without the drum (grenades must be hand loaded one at a time without the drum)
Cost: 100,000 credits
Notes: Intimidating Weapon, Min Str d10
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 176

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RPM-6X Skyhammer Rocket-Propelled Mortar

MM-16 "Coffin" Pepperbox Man-Portable Multiple Mini-Missile Launcher

Plasma Weapons
PE-33 Plasma Ejector

Range: 24/48/96
Damage: 3d10, AP —
RoF: 1
Shots: 12
Weight: 15 lbs
Cost: 33,000 credits.
Notes: Min Str d8, Mega Damage.
Reference: Rifts® Black Market Sourcebook. pg. 147

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Post by **High Command** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:23 am

Power Armor

Post by **High Command** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:41 am

Robot Vehicles

Post by **High Command** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:56 pm

Vehicles

Bandito Arms RH-1002B Robot Riding Horse
The Mustang is a robot horse with the same basic shape and size of the wild Mustang. They are tough and reliable, with good speed and cargo capacity. The only difference between the Mustang and the Pinto is the color of its fake hide.
Robot Riding horses are medium sized Robots that manage a good compromise between speed and carrying capacity.
Agility d8, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d12+2, Vigor d8
Skills: Fighting d4, Notice d8+2, Survival d6
Pace: 12 (Acc/TS 10/50); Parry: 4; Toughness: 17 (8)
Special Abilities

All-Terrain: Ignores penalties for rough terrain, and each inch counts as 1.5” instead of 2”
Armor +8: High strength alloy, M.D.C.
Handling: Riders gain +2 on all Riding checks.
Kick: Str, Mega Damage.
Sensor Suite: Power Armor sensors and communication, including 360 radar, thermal imaging, night vision, HUD, and +2 to Notice checks.
Environmental Weakness (Electricity): Robots suffer +4 damage from electrical attacks.
Nuclear Power Pack - Robot does not need to be recharged for 15 years
Size +2: Based on the mustangs of old, these robot horses are of a strong, compact model.
Travel Speed: Use the Acc/TS for overland speeds; use pace for combat

---------------------------------------------

Bandito Arms RH-1004D Robot War Horse
The War Horse is a robot with a stocky build, thick legs, extra armor and a basic shape that the average, nonhorse person would consider a Clydesdale. It is designed for hard work and combat. It is especially popular among Cyber-Knights and the 1st Cavalry.
Attributes: Agility d8, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d12+5, Vigor d12
Skills: Fighting d8, Notice d8+2, Survival d6
Pace: 12 (Acc/TS 10/50); Parry: 6; Toughness: 20 (10)
Special Abilities:

All-Terrain: Ignores penalties for rough terrain, and each inch counts as 1.5” instead of 2”
Armor +10: High strength alloy, M.D.C.
Handling: Riders gain +2 on all Riding checks.
Kick: Str+d6, Mega Damage.
Sensor Suite: Power Armor sensors and communication, including 360 radar, thermal imagine, night vision, HUD, and +2 to Notice checks.
Size +2: Based on the mustangs of old, these robot horses are of a strong, compact model.
Travel Speed: Use the Acc/TS for overland speeds; use pace for combat

OOC Comments

Bandito G-10-SX “Shadow Boy”: The Shadow Boy is built with the exact same design and dimensions as the iconic Glitter Boy, but with lower quality materials. Originally, the engineers at Bandito Arms thought they might paint this armor silver and pass it off as a Glitter Boy to green pilots and suckers, but they ultimately decided to go in a different direction. Instead, they leaned into the fact that the armor has only a “shadow” of the Glitter Boy’s power by painting it black and equipping it with Bandito Arms’ own Baby Boom Gun. The Baby Boom Gun fires the same flechettes as the Boom Gun, but at a much lower speed and shorter range, and for significantly reduced damage. Without the need to deploy pylons and elaborate stabilization features to fire, the Shadow Boy is much more mobile than its more famous progenitor, using a version of the Glitter Boy’s rocket stabilizers as rocket boosters to leap around the battlefield. (460 lb, 1,200,000 credits)

Bandito G-10-SX: Size 3, +12 M.D.C. Armor, +3 Toughness, Strength d12+4, Pace 12 (Run 2d10)
Notes: Jet Boosters (Jump 20” horizontal, 10” vertical)
Weapons:
- Baby Boom Gun (stats of a Medium Rail Gun, shoulder-mounted in the same style as the Glitter Boy’s Boom Gun, but with ROF 1 and a SBT)
- Light laser in right forearm
- Plasma ejector in left forearm (use stats for NG-E4)
- Retractable Vibro-Swords in each arm

Design Notes: This is a re-skin of the Samson Power Armor, which I think works quite nicely (the Samson is the same size as the Glitter Boy, but has an appropriately lesser Armor rating). I opted for the Medium Rail Gun for the Baby Boom Gun, sacrificing ROF for a SBT in order to more closely mirror how the Boom Gun works. This is about as close a ratio as I could get to the full Boom Gun (which is somewhere between 2x and 3x as powerful as the Baby Boom Gun in original-recipe Rifts). And because it is physically mounted to the armor, the Baby Boom Gun doesn’t follow the typical rules for a handheld vehicle weapon. It can’t be swapped out, though, so if a Shadow Boy pilot opted to carry some other weapon, he couldn’t use it and the Baby Boom Gun at the same time (and most Shadow Boy pilots wouldn’t bother). I upped the price over the Samson by 300,000 credits to account for (1) the light laser on the right forearm being insanely expensive (200,000), (2) full vibro-swords instead of just knuckle blades, and (3) scarcity; Shadow Boys are less common, so there’s a markup.

Post by **Radecliffe** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:33 pm

SR uses the prices from classic Rifts in most cases so if there is a price tag in the original source material I'd just use that. Same for wt. and height too. I know I've seen the stats for the Shadow Boy in PR somewhere but damned if I can remember where.

Post by **Daniel** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:41 pm

Page 163 Rifts Black Market

The Black Company had one of these....until the CS destroyed it!

Shadow Boy

Shadow Boy Power Armor

With the limited success of the "Baby Boom Gun," the Bandito researchers turned their attention once more to the plans for the USA- G10 Chromium Guardsman, or Glitter Boy as it is known today. With its complete plans and schematics in their possession, they sponsored reproducing the Glitter Boy out of some other M.D.C. material, spraying it silver and pawning the resulting inferior armor off to would-be Glitter Boy Pilots, greenhorns and losers unable to tell the real thing from a fake. However, it was decided that such an inferior product and obvious deception would bring a terrible backlash on the Black Market, so the idea was scrapped. Furthermore, conventional armor cannot handle the boom of the Boom Gun, and the Black Market cannot make the dense, laser resistant armor, so they can't make a poor man's Glitter Boy that lasts more than a few minutes in combat; its own Boom Gun inflicting damage to the power armor and the pilot inside. One day, one of the researchers came up with a simple, new idea. What if they made a Glitter Boy out of inferior material, gave it the Baby Boom Gun and some different weapons and features, painted it black so there could be no confusing it with "the" Glitter Boy, and sold it as something entirely new and different, under a different name. The fact that it still resembled a Glitter Boy would give the armor a sense of heroic history and the iconic Glitter Boy "vibe" that should appeal to power armor pilots, meres and adventurers, and the Black Market could sell it for a fraction of the cost of a real Glitter Boy. After much debate, that' s what Bandito Arms did, and it has been their hottest-selling new power armor since the release of the Bandito Arms SAMAS. The marketing team thought the name "Shadow Boy" was appropriate and humorous, as its power level is a "shadow" of the Glitter Boy' s. The Shadow Boy is made from the exact same design and molds as the traditional Glitter Boy, but with a lighter, inferior M.D.C. armor. This armor can NOT reflect lasers (takes full damage from them), and in place of the big Boom Gun, it uses the Baby Boom Gun mounted on the exact shoulder housing as the traditional Boom Gun. With the extra support of the shoulder mounting, the power armor has sufficient strength to fire the Baby Boom Gun without the anti-sway pylons and recoil dampening thrusters. As a result, the anti-sway pylons were liminated, clearing space in the design for something new. In the space left in the legs, the Bandito engineers installed a pair of powerful jump jet thrusters. On the back, they left the Glitter Boy Recoil Suppression System, which now functions as another jump jet system that propels the Shadow Boy a good distance, especially with a running start. The jets in the back augmented by the jump jets in the lower legs enable the Shadow Boy to perform jet-assisted leaps and bounding high speed travel like that performed by the Triax T-21 Terrain Hopper. The Shadow Boy might be thought of as the faster, bounding cousin to the USA-GIO Glitter Boy, twice removed. It all works surprisingly well, though the Shadow Boy is a bit top and front heavy when leaping with the Baby Boom Gun extended forward in a firing position. The armor is much more balanced when the weapon is in its stowed position behind the right shoulder. In addition to the Baby Boom Gun are a number of additional backup weapons to add some flexibility and versatility to the Shadow Boy. A compact variable laser is mounted on the .right forearm, a forearm plasma ejector is built into the left forearm, and each arm has a retractable/extendable Vibro-Sword that slides out from a housing on the forearm. The Shadow Boy operates on the battlefield in a very different way from a traditional Glitter Boy, running, jumping, bobbing and weaving as it goes. It can certainly stand its ground like a Glitter Boy too, but this is not an effective use of the power armor. As its name suggests, the Shadow Boy can hide in the shadows or use the darkness of night to mount its attacks or strike from an ambush point. It can also leap from rooftop to rooftop, sniping at the enemy or using hit and run tactics. The best Shadow Boy pilots are always on the move, sneaky and above all, fight smart.

Statistical Data
Height: 10 feet, 5 inches (3. 1 m).
Width: 4 feet, 4 inches ( 1 .3 m).
Length: 4 feet ( 1 .2 m).
Weight: A little less than one ton fully loaded.
Physical Strength: Equal to Robot P.S. of 30.
Cargo: Minimal storage space; a one foot (0.3 m) compartment and storage for a rifle, pistol, survival knife and first aid kit.
Power System: Nuclear; average energy life is 25 years.
Cost: 12 million credits.

Jarvis Ursus · Post by **Jarvis Ursus** » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:20 am

For my home game I did some conversions of some of the BigBore weapons. I made an attempt to link them to Triax explosive rounds and the Northern Gun shotgun type weapons for consistency and because Palladium is all over the place when it comes to conventional weapons doing MD. Once you convert (re-trap) the ammo, its relatively simple to convert most of the weapons. My Vampire Kingdom home game rules spoilered below where I also did some TW anti-vamp weapons:

OOC Comments

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:55 pm

The power armors in Savage Rifts are considerably cheaper than in Palladium; at $1.2m, the Shadow Boy is already one of the most expensive out there.

Honestly, though, I would anticipate anybody playing one of these would get it at character creation, making price less of an issue.

Post by **Radecliffe** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:29 pm

Hardin wrote:The power armors in Savage Rifts are considerably cheaper than in Palladium; at $1.2m, the Shadow Boy is already one of the most expensive out there.

Honestly, though, I would anticipate anybody playing one of these would get it at character creation, making price less of an issue.

Other than armor this Shadow Boy is heads and shoulders better than any other Power Armor available (not counting the GB of course.) I'd actually make it even more expensive or eve not put a price tag on it and only make it available via adventuring.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:40 pm

Radecliffe wrote:
Hardin wrote:The power armors in Savage Rifts are considerably cheaper than in Palladium; at $1.2m, the Shadow Boy is already one of the most expensive out there.

Honestly, though, I would anticipate anybody playing one of these would get it at character creation, making price less of an issue.

Other than armor this Shadow Boy is heads and shoulders better than any other Power Armor available (not counting the GB of course.) I'd actually make it even more expensive or eve not put a price tag on it and only make it available via adventuring.

That’s not an unfair criticism. I would add that the only other similar armor is really the Samson (the others all fill some other niche), and the Shadow Boy is certainly (I think) better than the Samson. I think the increase in price over the Samson reflects that, but I’m not opposed to raising it or restricting acquisition somehow. As I said, I imagine most players who opt for one of these will do so at character creation anyway.

Post by **Radecliffe** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:36 pm

Now that I think of it though the Shadow Boy is technically illegal if the Baby Boom Gun is the equivalent of a medium rail gun. A size 3 PA with strength of d12+4 would have to wield a 4 mod weapon with both hands because it would be the max size it could wield. It would not be able to wield it on one arm like that.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:44 pm

Radecliffe wrote:Now that I think of it though the Shadow Boy is technically illegal if the Baby Boom Gun is the equivalent of a medium rail gun. A size 3 PA with strength of d12+4 would have to wield a 4 mod weapon with both hands because it would be the max size it could wield. It would not be able to wield it on one arm like that.

Right you are. I accounted for this in the design notes as best I could:

I opted for the Medium Rail Gun for the Baby Boom Gun, sacrificing ROF for a SBT in order to more closely mirror how the Boom Gun works. This is about as close a ratio as I could get to the full Boom Gun (which is somewhere between 2x and 3x as powerful as the Baby Boom Gun in original-recipe Rifts). And because it is physically mounted to the armor, the Baby Boom Gun doesn’t follow the typical rules for a handheld vehicle weapon. It can’t be swapped out, though, so if a Shadow Boy pilot opted to carry some other weapon, he couldn’t use it and the Baby Boom Gun at the same time (and most Shadow Boy pilots wouldn’t bother).

Basically, if the Glitterboy can carry the mother of all rail guns on that shoulder mount, the Shadow Boy should be able to handle a Medium Rail Gun with some modifications (sacrificing ROF, limiting versatility, etc.).

Post by **Radecliffe** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:29 am

If the Shadow Boy is approved then I hope that Power Armor pilots get the option to swap out for this if they choose. As far as I'm concerned this is equal or far superior in every respect to the Samson.

Post by **Radecliffe** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:44 am

Given that SFoNA stats big bore weapons as shotguns that do MD I wonder if that is the way to go for the shotguns though give slugs the ability to knockdown targets.

Buckshot 1-3d6 MD
Slugs 2d10 MD and add Knockdown

For pistols just use the Desert Eagle as the base (2d8), make the damage MD, make it a revolver and add Knockdown?

The TX-50 could serve as the base for the Rail Gun in the same manner.

Knockdown: On a successful attack the target must make a Strength roll or be knocked prone. On a raise roll Strength at -2.

Then it would just be a matter of determining the minimum strength values.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:10 am

Radecliffe wrote:Given that SFoNA stats big bore weapons as shotguns that do MD I wonder if that is the way to go for the shotguns though give slugs the ability to knockdown targets.

Buckshot 1-3d6 MD
Slugs 2d10 MD and add Knockdown

For pistols just use the Desert Eagle as the base (2d8), make the damage MD, make it a revolver and add Knockdown?

The TX-50 could serve as the base for the Rail Gun in the same manner.

Knockdown: On a successful attack the target must make a Strength roll or be knocked prone. On a raise roll Strength at -2.

Then it would just be a matter of determining the minimum strength values.

I like this approach, but I might drop the damage of the slugs a little. I think this is the right track, though.

Post by **Radecliffe** » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:57 am

Well I figured to start with the base SW shotgun which does 2d10 with no AP when firing slugs. Average damage would be 11 with 0 AP so it's not going to scare anyone in heavy armor too much.

Also remember that these guns will have minimum strength restrictions and a relatively short range (12/24/48 if using standard shotgun ranges) so if possible I'd rather not mess with the damage unless something else gets tweaked to compensate.

Will that make them better than a standard shotgun? Yes, but that's kind of the point.

I could see reducing the damage die type by one (2d8) in order to increase the knockdown effect though. Increase the penalty to avoid being knocked prone to -2 and -4 on a raise for example.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:04 am

Big Bore rounds are micro grenades that impact the target and then explode, doing a minor amount of damage and massive knockdown (minimal shrapnel, lots of powder/explosives). They are not buckshot or slug weapons, and DEFINITELY don't do as much damage as d10s or d8s. The knockdown is awesome though. Size would add to the strength roll (and replace the klunky way Classic did knockdown)

Post by **Radecliffe** » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:34 am

High Command wrote:Big Bore rounds are micro grenades that impact the target and then explode, doing a minor amount of damage and massive knockdown (minimal shrapnel, lots of powder/explosives). They are not buckshot or slug weapons, and DEFINITELY don't do as much damage as d10s or d8s. The knockdown is awesome though. Size would add to the strength roll (and replace the klunky way Classic did knockdown)

Fair enough. I did see size being a modifier for knockdown. So how about this. Big Bore Shotguns can fire standard shotgun shells just like a normal shotgun (1-3d6, use shotgun rules) which are not MD. Big Bore rounds do 2d4 (pistol) or 4d4 (shotgun) MD and do Knockdown. Without AP would this damage be fair? Rail guns could do the same damage as shot guns but with better range and a higher RoF. For Knockdown I figure either the target makes a roll for each successful hit or one roll modified by the number of hits. So if you shoot someone three times with a Big Bore Rail Gun and hit all three times it is either three rolls as normal or one roll at an additional -2.

Knockdown: On a successful attack the target must make a Strength roll modified by their Size modifier or be knocked prone. On a raise make the Strength roll with an additional -2 modifier.

Post by **High Command** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:08 am

New Keywords
Intimidating Weapon
When using intimidation, Bandito BigBore weapons are almost always the most intimidating weapon on the battlefield and receive +2 to intimidation as per the Test of Wills rules. See SWD page 86 for details and exceptions. This does not apply to any other Bandito weapons.
BigBore Knockdown
If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength, at -2 on a raise, or is knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A critical failure pushes the target 1”. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. See SWD page 85 for details on Push, Knockdown, and Prone.
BigBore Cartridge Prices

BigBore "Revolver" Rounds - Cost: 80 credits per round or 10,000 credits for a gross (box of 144 rounds).
2d4 Mega Damage, BigBore Knockdown, AP 0
BigBore "Shotgun" Shells - Cost: 120 credits per BB shotgun shell or 16,000 credits for a gross (box of 144 shells).
3d4 Mega Damage, BigBore Knockdown, AP 0
- Most guns in the BigBore "Shotgun Series" that use the BB shotgun shells can also fire conventional and silver shotgun shells.
Traditional Shotgun Shells - Cost: Buckshot shells cost 1 credit per shell. Slug shots cost 8 credits for 5 shells. They are both sold in boxes of 50 and 100. A box of 50 shells weighs 8 lbs.
Silver Shotgun Shells - Cost: 200 credits per buckshot round; 400 credits per silver-coated solid slug. These do full damage to creatures vulnerable to silver.

Post by **Tribe of One** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:06 am

It seems silly that a Mega Damage futuristic shotgun round would do less damage than a conventional shotgun.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:34 am

Not sure about the purpose of 2d4 -2 for the revolver rounds. 2d4 is already the weakest damage of any weapon in the game right now MD or not.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:36 am

Fizzwaite Zipwidget wrote:Not sure about the purpose of 2d4 -2 for the revolver rounds. 2d4 is already the weakest damage of any weapon in the game right now MD or not.

I think 2d4 would be fine without the -2. Most of the time, the rounds would still just do knockdown (especially against the armor we see in SR), but every now and then will surprise you and shake someone or cause a wound.

Post by **High Command** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:52 pm

The micro-grenades that are Big Bore rounds are actually mostly powder and very little shell (for shrapnel). The shell is what causes the damage, the powder causes the explosion that causes the knockback. They are actually a riot round developed pre-rifts for use with juicers, crazies, and borgs.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:58 pm

High Command wrote:The micro-grenades that are Big Bore rounds are actually mostly powder and very little shell (for shrapnel). The shell is what causes the damage, the powder causes the explosion that causes the knockback. They are actually a riot round developed pre-rifts for use with juicers, crazies, and borgs.

Hmm. I still think 2d4 likely works for this. That’s less damage than a bow and arrow.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:21 pm

Okay, if they're meant to be a Riot Round... maybe make them do Non-lethal to armored targets? I mean, it's just a thought. Would be potentially dangerous to unarmored types, of course, which makes sense.

Post by **High Command** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:04 pm

The US Military in the Golden Age wasn't that touchy feely. I guess they thought it was okay to inflict a little pain with their riot response. And they are meant for Juicers and Crazies, so you have to be a bit more....direct with them.
And I made it 2d4, look above

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:14 pm

High Command wrote:The US Military in the Golden Age wasn't that touchy feely. I guess they thought it was okay to inflict a little pain with their riot response. And they are meant for Juicers and Crazies, so you have to be a bit more....direct with them.
And I made it 2d4, look above

So you did! I like it. Let’s get the guns approved and get shootin’!

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:35 pm

I like the knockdown, I like the i like domination bonus. I am not sure about the damage. What is the value of including it and making it is so specific? Why not just blanket state damage dice is reduced a die type?

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:41 pm

I am looking at the BB6, and thinking it would make sense for it to have a slightly longer range then the BB4. Maybe 10/20/40 instead of 8/16/32, to account for the longer barrel and more appropriately sized ammo.

Post by **High Command** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:48 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:I like the knockdown, I like the i like domination bonus. I am not sure about the damage. What is the value of including it and making it is so specific? Why not just blanket state damage dice is reduced a die type?

Because they are basically grenades with no blast template. Each round is basically a shotgun shell that shoots a small micro-grenade. The pistol rounds are just really small shotgun rounds. The only real difference is range, payload, and stability. The Str Min is due to the kick of the round, not the weight of the weapon.

Hardin wrote:I am looking at the BB6, and thinking it would make sense for it to have a slightly longer range then the BB4. Maybe 10/20/40 instead of 8/16/32, to account for the longer barrel and more appropriately sized ammo.

The Shotgun round has a more powerful shot shell in it, and is able to go further because of it. The smaller shell needs the longer barrel to be more stable over the distance

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:57 pm

Stands to reason.

Also, I just noticed my shadow boy conversion went missing. Did that get moved or deleted?

Post by **Freemage** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:20 pm

So, I started out with the two non-BigBore weapons and... they came up a little short. Both the Laser Pistol and the Ion Pistol have equivalents in the TLPG which are mechanically identical (or even superior) AND cost less.

High Command wrote:Sidearms Bandito LP1 Laser Pistol

Range: 15/30/60
Damage: 2d6, AP: 2
ROF: 1
Shots: 20
Weight: 2 lbs.
Cost: 20,000
Notes:
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 173-174

Okay, by the stats, this is just a poor man's Wilk's 320 (Damage, AP, Shots and Weight all match; the Wilk's has better range and an explicit Semi-Auto trait, meaning it's got double-tap). And the Wilk's is 9K cheaper.

Bandito IP-10 Ion Pistol

Range: 10/20/40
Damage: 1–3d6, AP —
ROF: 1
Shots: 12
Weight: 3 lbs.
Cost: 12,000
Notes:
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 173-174

Comparison Point: NG-56. Again, same stats, but the NG model is 7K less and lighter weight.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:52 pm

Freemage wrote:So, I started out with the two non-BigBore weapons and... they came up a little short. Both the Laser Pistol and the Ion Pistol have equivalents in the TLPG which are mechanically identical (or even superior) AND cost less.

High Command wrote:Sidearms Bandito LP1 Laser Pistol

Range: 15/30/60
Damage: 2d6, AP: 2
ROF: 1
Shots: 20
Weight: 2 lbs.
Cost: 20,000
Notes:
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 173-174
Okay, by the stats, this is just a poor man's Wilk's 320 (Damage, AP, Shots and Weight all match; the Wilk's has better range and an explicit Semi-Auto trait, meaning it's got double-tap). And the Wilk's is 9K cheaper.

Bandito IP-10 Ion Pistol

Range: 10/20/40
Damage: 1–3d6, AP —
ROF: 1
Shots: 12
Weight: 3 lbs.
Cost: 12,000
Notes:
Reference: Rifts® World Book New West. pg. 173-174
Comparison Point: NG-56. Again, same stats, but the NG model is 7K less and lighter weight.

My recollection may be off, but I think this mimics how it was done in original recipe; Wilk’s was typically cheaper and mechanically superior to the Bandito stuff.

Post by **High Command** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:50 pm

For those two iconic Bandito energy weapons, I gave them the Revolver Keyword (see above). For all the others, I just made sure their stats and prices were more in line with the ones they copy. Also see the K series (which is not, I should add on ANY store shelves as a Bandito product). It'd be like a Coalition CP-30 Pulse Pistol available for sale; but if you look at the serial number it has a k at the end. Note that sidearms are now 100% complete. Holy crap that's a lot of guns.

The Shadowboy is currently sitting in the Robot vehicles post, until I can move it.

Post by **Freemage** » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:53 pm

Hardin wrote:

My recollection may be off, but I think this mimics how it was done in original recipe; Wilk’s was typically cheaper and mechanically superior to the Bandito stuff.

Hm... the issue then becomes "Why would a player want them?" I suggested the edit that gave them the option to Fan the Hammer, because it left the base use at the same level originally posted, but in the hands of a true expert (ie, someone who can reliably get a +2 (Ion) or +4 (Laser) to their Shooting rolls), the weapons become fine instruments. Grunts would prefer the more reliable NG/Wilk's gear, while folks who were born with a gun in their hands would find the Bandito variants very attractive.

Post by **Tribe of One** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:28 pm

I guess at the most basic level, I'm opposed to including worthless options -- and guns that cost more but do the same or worse damage are worthless options.

"But that's how it was in Palladium Rifts" is no more a reasonable argument for crap weapons than it is for OP weapons -- in that respect, Bandito and Naruni are just two ends of Siembieda's "Balanced game design is a dirty word" spectrum. So if we're not going to give the Bandito stuff (including BigBore) enough advantages to make them a viable (not necessarily superior in all situations, but some) option, then what's the point?

As is, I'm not convinced the BigBore weapons are viable, with basically zero chance of wounding anyone, ever, short of a miraculous series of Aces, and the knockdown is too unreliable to be worthwhile when you could just carry a better gun and kill the opponent instead of pushing him around. It's a gimmick weapon, I guess. Were it me, I'd give them the same damage as ion weapons, with the knockdown effect instead of the +2 to hit. Maaaaaaybe even cut them down to the damage of conventional weapons (2d8 for the pistols, like a DEagle, and 3d6 for a shortgun), if you're gonna keep them cheap.

And the Bandito stuff needs something to set it apart from existing options, even if the something is just being cheaper. Just because Kevin S. doesn't understand math doesn't mean we can't apply a little common sense.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:26 pm

As a note the fact that cost is unrelated to damage is a real life issue as well.
Anyone who gets into ballistics at all can tell you that. And loading at home will give you higher quality rounds almost everytime.

As to Bandito big bore rounds I would up the damage a bit in most cases to be at least a die type better than real world equivalent. For knock down, I would rephrase your the Push maneuver reworded to use Damage for the Push roll. This will make it good enough to be useful.

And in the hands of an expert amazingly useful. As their damage will usually have a raise.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:28 pm

To be fair a weapon that uses d4's for damage can be wildly unpredictable so I wouldn't say they can't do decent damage. However, I do have to agree that when it comes to translating the Big Bore weapon it is still important that they are viable. In PR armor is ablative so blasting someone enough times even with a mediocre weapon will get through and if you are repeatedly knocking the target down at the same time then bonus.

In SR armor and how it takes damage works a lot different and that difference should be taken into account when stating a weapon I think. Leaving it at 2d4 and 3d4 for damage could work but it might be a good idea to find out if anyone would be interesting in using them at that damage level.

Post by **High Command** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:17 pm

Alright, after some number and concept crunching with Pender, plus your criticisms Tribe, I've got a revision. It constitutes a major revision in what I have here, and I'm not 100% sure its warranted, but Pender did call it right when he called my attention to the flavor text of the weapon. "The advantages to the BigBore handgun is its knock down power, damage yield, and intimidation factor." Now the weapon only does1d6 MD, but I got caught in the Palladium trap. I see that and know instinctively that is the same damage as a Wilks 320. The shotgun isn't much better at 2d4. That's a C-18. Both of those do 2d6 in SR (with AP 2 because they are lasers).

But it turns out I was comparing it to the wrong guns. They are being compared to traditional pistols and shotguns. On a Classic Rifts scale, 1d6 MD is an incredible increase from 4d6 SDC. 1d6 MD is 100d6 SDC. Of course that measure is no longer valid, but it does give me a point of reference. So we look up the Peacemaker (2d6+1) and the Shotgun (1-3d6). Pender suggested +2 or +4 to represent the "improved damage yield." So delivering on the flavor of the weapon (and not its stats), that puts the pistol at 2d6+4. For the shotgun, it's important to note that BigBore rounds lose no potency at range. So I'll just use the max 3d6 damage for the shotgun (and not the insanity that would be 2d10+4 if I based off the solid slug) and add the +4 to it as well. This makes this the new entry for damage.

BigBore Cartridge Prices

BigBore "Revolver" Rounds - Cost: 80 credits per round or 10,000 credits for a gross (box of 144 rounds).
2d6+4 Mega Damage, BigBore Knockdown, AP 0
- - Most guns in the BigBore "Revolver Series" that use the BB shotgun shells can also fire conventional and silver .410 caliber shotgun shells.
- Traditional Shotgun Shells (Buckshot: 1-3d4 damage; Slug: 2d8 damage) - Cost: Buckshot shells cost 1 credit per shell. Slug shots cost 8 credits for 5 shells. They are both sold in boxes of 50 and 100. A box of 50 shells weighs 8 lbs.
- Silver Shotgun Shells - Cost: 150 credits per buckshot round; 300 credits per silver-coated solid slug. These do full damage to creatures vulnerable to silver.
BigBore "Shotgun" Shells - Cost: 120 credits per BB shotgun shell or 16,000 credits for a gross (box of 144 shells).
3d6+4 Mega Damage, BigBore Knockdown, AP 0
- - Most guns in the BigBore "Shotgun Series" that use the BB shotgun shells can also fire conventional and silver 12 gauge shotgun shells.
- Traditional Shotgun Shells - Cost: Buckshot shells cost 1 credit per shell. Slug shots cost 8 credits for 5 shells. They are both sold in boxes of 50 and 100. A box of 50 shells weighs 8 lbs.
- Silver Shotgun Shells - Cost: 200 credits per buckshot round; 400 credits per silver-coated solid slug. These do full damage to creatures vulnerable to silver.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Knockdown is another key factor. I thought I had it whooped by using a modified pummel test. Do I need to change it with the increased damage?

Current wording, for reference:
BigBore Knockdown

BigBore "Revolver" Rounds: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength, at -2 on a raise, or is knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A critical failure pushes the target 1”. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. See SWD page 85 for details on Push, Knockdown, and Prone.
BigBore "Shotgun" Shells: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength at -1, at -3 on a raise, or is knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A critical failure pushes the target 2”. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. See SWD page 85 for details on Push, Knockdown, and Prone.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Intimidation I at least got handled.

Post by **Freemage** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:39 pm

I think the Knockdown is a nice factor, now, and the damage looks about right. (Right now, the KD is a decent bet against mooks, less likely to work against Wild Cards, which feels 'right' to me. If we set it against damage, per Rob's suggestion, then it would be almost a certainty against mooks, and pretty damned likely against Wild Cards, which would be fine if the damage were at the original numbers, but with this damage would be overkill.)

Post by **High Command** » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:47 pm

One thing Pender suggested was making it so you had to roll a raise to stay standing, be knocked prone on a success, and prone and pushed an inch on failure, 2 inches on critical failure. That would be the revolver round. Kinda like poison where success is not enough.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:18 am

As someone who loved the old BB weapons in Palladium and who is ready to playtest these, I'm a fan of the upped damage. I also like Pender's suggestion that you'd need a raise to stay standing; thematically, it makes sense that it would take quite the effort to stay standing if one of these hits you. And if they were designed for juicers and crazies, a straight up Strength test isn't much of a challenge.

Post by **High Command** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:16 am

The Pender-Revision® would look something like this:

BigBore Knockdown

BigBore "Revolver" Rounds: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice), at -2 on a raise. If the target succeeds with a raise, nothing happens. On a success, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A failure pushes the target 1” and knocks them prone. A critical failure pushes the target 2" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The ame page also has information on the effects of Prone.
BigBore "Shotgun" Shells: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice) at -1, and at -3 on a raise. If the target succeeds with a raise, nothing happens. On a success, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A failure pushes the target 2” and knocks them prone. A critical failure pushes the target 3" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:32 am

I dunno, I think this is a Strength test through and through. Agility is more for avoiding damage. If getting up cost an action I could see giving a agility roll to get back up but it's just 2" of movement.

P.S. It is really annoying I can't post to the item validation forum using my Radecliffe account.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:23 am

Fizzwaite Zipwidget wrote:I dunno, I think this is a Strength test through and through. Agility is more for avoiding damage. If getting up cost an action I could see giving a agility roll to get back up but it's just 2" of movement.

P.S. It is really annoying I can't post to the item validation forum using my Radecliffe account.

The PR fluff would lead me to beleive it is about maintaining your balance. What it comes down to is that bigbore weapons, have knockdown( and knockback), increased damage yeild(compared to what is open for debate), and are intimidating.

As a side note: the PR rules would have the contest be an oppose shooting vs whatever you consider balance. If I had it my way, I would keep the opposed roll. Make it shooting vs agility or str. It is a nice little throwback to how PR ran it.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:38 am

Pender Lumkiss wrote:
Fizzwaite Zipwidget wrote:I dunno, I think this is a Strength test through and through. Agility is more for avoiding damage. If getting up cost an action I could see giving a agility roll to get back up but it's just 2" of movement.

P.S. It is really annoying I can't post to the item validation forum using my Radecliffe account.
The PR fluff would lead me to beleive it is about maintaining your balance. What it comes down to is that bigbore weapons, have knockdown( and knockback), increased damage yeild(compared to what is open for debate), and are intimidating.

I get that but in this case I don't see agility helping you. It does not help with pummel or shield bash or any other knock down maneuver that I'm aware of. It's really a matter of is the target strong enough to counter the force trying to knock them down. It doesn't make sense from a physics point of view. Now if physics made the maneuver more cumbersome I'd say screw physics but I don't see that being an issue either.

Post by **Freemage** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:16 am

Well, we could split the difference.... (Edits in Red)

High Command wrote:The Pender-Revision® would look something like this:

BigBore Knockdown
BigBore "Revolver" Rounds: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice), at -2 on a raise. If the target succeeds with a raise (with either Attribute), nothing happens. On a success with a Strength roll, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage; on a success with an Agility roll, they are pushed 1". A failure pushes the target 1” and knocks them prone. A critical failure pushes the target 2" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The ame page also has information on the effects of Prone.

BigBore "Shotgun" Shells: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice) at -1, and at -3 on a raise. If the target succeeds with a raise (with either Attribute), nothing happens. On a success with a Strength roll, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage; on a success with an Agility roll, they are pushed 1". A critical failure pushes the target 3" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.

The idea here would be that if you attempt to resist with Strength and get a success, you are still off-balance and tip over, but were braced enough to avoid getting knocked back. If you attempt to resist with an Agility roll and get a success, you're still forced back, but retain your footing by rolling with the blow or just keeping your feet underneath you. It's only on a fail/critfail that you suffer both effects.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:26 am

If the GM's want to go this way then ok. It seems to me, however, that Agility is more prevalent than Strength meaning this shrinks the niche for this weapon considerably in my opinion. A 1" push in melee is significant but in ranged combat it is fairly inconsequential. It certainly wouldn't make the BigBore useless in my opinion but I'm not sure it would be useful enough to warrant spending the extra resources on such a weapon.

Post by **High Command** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 am

I could see that Freemage. I'm amenable. I'm also of the same opinion as Fizz, I should note. I included the Agility option because Pender loves it so much and it was a Pender-Revision®.

It's important to note that BigBore weapons end to be the Close Quarters Battle Specialist weapon of choice. In large part because it does push and knock prone. Inside 3" prone take a -2 from ranged attacks. For a gunslinger or shotgun specialist, that knockdown is an amazing option. have a bayonet mounted on a BigBore and you have the potential for a nasty double action. Stab and shoot, rise repeat.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:57 pm

High Command wrote: ®....

Oh no! We are turning into Palladium® Rifts® forums!

Post by **Tribe of One** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:57 pm

High Command wrote:BigBore Cartridge Prices
BigBore "Revolver" Rounds - Cost: 80 credits per round or 10,000 credits for a gross (box of 144 rounds).
2d6+4 Mega Damage, BigBore Knockdown, AP 0
Most guns in the BigBore "Revolver Series" that use the BB shotgun shells can also fire conventional and silver .410 caliber shotgun shells.

Traditional Shotgun Shells (Buckshot: 1-3d4 damage; Slug: 2d8 damage) - Cost: Buckshot shells cost 1 credit per shell. Slug shots cost 8 credits for 5 shells. They are both sold in boxes of 50 and 100. A box of 50 shells weighs 8 lbs.

Silver Shotgun Shells - Cost: 150 credits per buckshot round; 300 credits per silver-coated solid slug. These do full damage to creatures vulnerable to silver.

BigBore "Shotgun" Shells - Cost: 120 credits per BB shotgun shell or 16,000 credits for a gross (box of 144 shells).
3d6+4 Mega Damage, BigBore Knockdown, AP 0
Most guns in the BigBore "Shotgun Series" that use the BB shotgun shells can also fire conventional and silver 12 gauge shotgun shells.

Traditional Shotgun Shells - Cost: Buckshot shells cost 1 credit per shell. Slug shots cost 8 credits for 5 shells. They are both sold in boxes of 50 and 100. A box of 50 shells weighs 8 lbs.

Silver Shotgun Shells - Cost: 200 credits per buckshot round; 400 credits per silver-coated solid slug. These do full damage to creatures vulnerable to silver.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Knockdown is another key factor. I thought I had it whooped by using a modified pummel test. Do I need to change it with the increased damage?

Current wording, for reference:
BigBore Knockdown
BigBore "Revolver" Rounds: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength, at -2 on a raise, or is knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A critical failure pushes the target 1”. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. See SWD page 85 for details on Push, Knockdown, and Prone.

BigBore "Shotgun" Shells: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength at -1, at -3 on a raise, or is knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A critical failure pushes the target 2”. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. See SWD page 85 for details on Push, Knockdown, and Prone.

All of this looks good to me, and seems to hit the sweet spot where some characters would want it some of the time, but all characters would not want it all of the time. For vamp hunters, etc, the versatility of ammunition types would be a big selling point.

I'm not sold on the Pender-vision. Choosing between Strength and Agility seems too fiddly, and requiring a Raise to avoid Knockdown is pretty nasty, considering you also have a -2 if the shooter got a raise.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:04 pm

I'd be ok with lowering the Strength check to a Success to stay standing. That's when you go with Rapid Attack and blast the varmint six times to knock him down. I'd like to see the shotgun get Semi-Auto if it doesn't already.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:45 pm

Hey hey... official Pender version would be shooting vs agility. Failure knocked down, pushed back 1", and shaken. Success you are just shaken, raise nothing happens.

That is just me translating the flavor text of the bigbore into SW.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:09 pm

I don't get that at all from the flavor text. Getting hit by a big bore is like getting hit by a sledgehammer. It is a sudden, brutal application of kinetic (scientific term, not game term) force applied to a small area of your body. There is no stumble, stumble, keep you feet. Either you are strong enough to resist the force applied against you or you go flying.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:21 pm

This is what High Command had me read.

The BigBore is a large revolver that fires high explosive shells. The "bullets" could be considered small grenades. The advantages to the BigBore handgun is its knock down power, damage yield, and intimidation factor. It is just plain scary to look down the business end of the BigBore. The BB-6 is an intimidating weapon, and has a horror factor of 10 when pointed in someone's face. A strength of 14 or better is required to shoot the BB-6 (those with a weaker P.S. are -2 to strike even with an aimed shot, and -6 when shooting wild); a P.S. 17 is needed to fire it one handed. 1D6 M.D. per round/bullet, plus human and human-sized D-bees who are shot must roll a 20 sided die to maintain their footing. This balance roll must equal or surpass the attacker's roll to strike. A successful roll means the character feels like he's been kicked by a mule, but remains standing and suffers no penalties, except he loses initiative if he had it. A failed roll means the victim is knocked off his feet, falls back onto the ground (fall back 1D4 feet), loses initiative (if he had it) and loses one melee attack/action! Even characters in
M.D.C. body armor will be knocked down, however, those in power armor, full conversion cyborgs, robots, giants, supernatural beings and creatures of magic (demons, metamorphed dragons, etc.) are not.

If it is something else I appologize. It says right their a balance roll. To me balance would be more agility, but if strength makes sense go strength.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:36 am

Pender Lumkiss wrote:This is what High Command had me read.

The BigBore is a large revolver that fires high explosive shells. The "bullets" could be considered small grenades. The advantages to the BigBore handgun is its knock down power, damage yield, and intimidation factor. It is just plain scary to look down the business end of the BigBore. The BB-6 is an intimidating weapon, and has a horror factor of 10 when pointed in someone's face. A strength of 14 or better is required to shoot the BB-6 (those with a weaker P.S. are -2 to strike even with an aimed shot, and -6 when shooting wild); a P.S. 17 is needed to fire it one handed. 1D6 M.D. per round/bullet, plus human and human-sized D-bees who are shot must roll a 20 sided die to maintain their footing. This balance roll must equal or surpass the attacker's roll to strike. A successful roll means the character feels like he's been kicked by a mule, but remains standing and suffers no penalties, except he loses initiative if he had it. A failed roll means the victim is knocked off his feet, falls back onto the ground (fall back 1D4 feet), loses initiative (if he had it) and loses one melee attack/action! Even characters in
M.D.C. body armor will be knocked down, however, those in power armor, full conversion cyborgs, robots, giants, supernatural beings and creatures of magic (demons, metamorphed dragons, etc.) are not.

If it is something else I appologize. It says right their a balance roll. To me balance would be more agility, but if strength makes sense go strength.

I think agility = balance is a reasonable conclusion. Given the way mechanics work for similar maneuvers in SW, though (havoc, shield bash), I think a Strength test is more consistent with the SW game mechanics.

That said, I love the idea that you'd need a raise to stay standing. These things were designed to knock down juicers, y'all. Juicers, who START with a d8 in Strength. Even with the "raise to stay standing," juicers are going to resist a decent amount of the time.

If we're worried about the -2 to Strength test on a raise combined with the "need a raise to stay upright", I could see doing away with the former in favor of the latter. Or maybe adding additional push back distance (an extra inch?) if they fail the Strength test against a shot with a raise.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:17 am

Pender Lumkiss wrote:This is what High Command had me read.

The BigBore is a large revolver that fires high explosive shells. The "bullets" could be considered small grenades. The advantages to the BigBore handgun is its knock down power, damage yield, and intimidation factor. It is just plain scary to look down the business end of the BigBore. The BB-6 is an intimidating weapon, and has a horror factor of 10 when pointed in someone's face. A strength of 14 or better is required to shoot the BB-6 (those with a weaker P.S. are -2 to strike even with an aimed shot, and -6 when shooting wild); a P.S. 17 is needed to fire it one handed. 1D6 M.D. per round/bullet, plus human and human-sized D-bees who are shot must roll a 20 sided die to maintain their footing. This balance roll must equal or surpass the attacker's roll to strike. A successful roll means the character feels like he's been kicked by a mule, but remains standing and suffers no penalties, except he loses initiative if he had it. A failed roll means the victim is knocked off his feet, falls back onto the ground (fall back 1D4 feet), loses initiative (if he had it) and loses one melee attack/action! Even characters in
M.D.C. body armor will be knocked down, however, those in power armor, full conversion cyborgs, robots, giants, supernatural beings and creatures of magic (demons, metamorphed dragons, etc.) are not.

If it is something else I appologize. It says right their a balance roll. To me balance would be more agility, but if strength makes sense go strength.

Ok, I had not seen this passage. I wonder which Bandito Arms reference it is in. Maybe I just missed it. I understand the reasoning for using agility but I still don't agree. The bottom line is the ability to choose between two different stats makes it too easy to avoid the effect. As a strength check odds are decent that you can get a knock down though it is still a niche weapon. Add agility and the odds are one of those stats are going to be above average or a lot above average and now that niche shrinks a lot. I don't see how I'm going to want to spend a ton of money on ammo that will have a low probability of damaging an armored target and now also is unlikely to give me a tactical advantage. Others may see that differently but that's my two cents.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:46 am

Its a fair point. I like shooting vs whatever trait roll more than traitroll tn 4

Post by **Freemage** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:18 am

So we seem to have several variations under consideration:

Resistance Method

Target rolls Strength
Target rolls Agility
Target's Choice of Agility or Strength

Resistance Difficulty

Roll vs. TN 4, resist on a success
Roll vs. TN 4, need a Raise to completely ignore
Roll vs. Attacker's Shooting, resist on a success
Roll vs. Attacker's Shooting, need a Raise to completely ignore

Most trained shooters have a d10 or d12, and typically have modifiers they can bring to bear. I'm good with opposed roll if and only if we also have choice of Agility or Strength for Method.

If it's locked in as only one of those (regardless of which it is), it should be one of the TN 4 options.

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Post by **Fizzwaite Zipwidget** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:32 am

Freemage wrote:So we seem to have several variations under consideration:
Most trained shooters have a d10 or d12, and typically have modifiers they can bring to bear. I'm good with opposed roll if and only if we also have choice of Agility or Strength for Method.

If it's locked in as only one of those (regardless of which it is), it should be one of the TN 4 options.

I agree that if it has to be either or then an opposed roll is the best option. The only viable option in my opinion.

Though I think if it's going to be agility then it still should be an opposed roll.

For strength I'm good with a TN of 4.

Outside of melee range I don't see the push back option as a big deal so I don't have a strong preference on the level of success needed to avoid being knocked down. I want the ability to be good but not TOO good.

Post by **Freemage** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:47 am

Fizzwaite Zipwidget wrote:
Freemage wrote:So we seem to have several variations under consideration:
Most trained shooters have a d10 or d12, and typically have modifiers they can bring to bear. I'm good with opposed roll if and only if we also have choice of Agility or Strength for Method.

If it's locked in as only one of those (regardless of which it is), it should be one of the TN 4 options.
I agree that if it has to be either or then an opposed roll is the best option. The only viable option in my opinion.

Though I think if it's going to be agility then it still should be an opposed roll.

For strength I'm good with a TN of 4.

Outside of melee range I don't see the push back option as a big deal so I don't have a strong preference on the level of success needed to avoid being knocked down. I want the ability to be good but not TOO good.

I think my three preferences are:

Choice => Opposed Roll (even with choice, I'd say Success required, unless the rounds really are meant to knock down 80% of the people they hit, even among the PC population).
Agility => TN 4, Raise required
Strength => TN 4, Success required

Fizzwaite Zipwidget · Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:49 am

Freemage wrote:
Fizzwaite Zipwidget wrote:
Freemage wrote:So we seem to have several variations under consideration:
Most trained shooters have a d10 or d12, and typically have modifiers they can bring to bear. I'm good with opposed roll if and only if we also have choice of Agility or Strength for Method.

If it's locked in as only one of those (regardless of which it is), it should be one of the TN 4 options.
I agree that if it has to be either or then an opposed roll is the best option. The only viable option in my opinion.

Though I think if it's going to be agility then it still should be an opposed roll.

For strength I'm good with a TN of 4.

Outside of melee range I don't see the push back option as a big deal so I don't have a strong preference on the level of success needed to avoid being knocked down. I want the ability to be good but not TOO good.
I think my three preferences are:

Choice => Opposed Roll (even with choice, I'd say Success required, unless the rounds really are meant to knock down 80% of the people they hit, even among the PC population).
Agility => TN 4, Raise required
Strength => TN 4, Success required

I'd be ok with one of those options.

Post by **High Command** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:34 pm

As for the difficulty level of stay standing, that passage is from the damage of the BB-6 Revolver. The target rolls a d20, with no modifiers, against the strike bonus of the shooter and a d20 roll (+1 to +11 or so usually). So it's a hard roll that amounts to luck and grit leaving you standing. It really is meant to slow down and put down anyone hit by it. Losing initiative in Palladium is a harsh and effective way to put you at an extreme disadvantage. You go from setting the tone to reacting. Especially if you happen to be dodge gunfire or spending your action getting up.

My top two are here, in order. If we can come to a consensus, I'm good with that.
1. Agility => TN 4, Raise required
2. Choice => Opposed Roll (even with choice, I'd say Success required, unless the rounds really are meant to knock down 80% of the people they hit, even among the PC population).

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:27 pm

High Command wrote:As for the difficulty level of stay standing, that passage is from the damage of the BB-6 Revolver. The target rolls a d20, with no modifiers, against the strike bonus of the shooter and a d20 roll (+1 to +11 or so usually). So it's a hard roll that amounts to luck and grit leaving you standing. It really is meant to slow down and put down anyone hit by it. Losing initiative in Palladium is a harsh and effective way to put you at an extreme disadvantage. You go from setting the tone to reacting. Especially if you happen to be dodge gunfire or spending your action getting up.

My top two are here, in order. If we can come to a consensus, I'm good with that.
1. Agility => TN 4, Raise required
2. Choice => Opposed Roll (even with choice, I'd say Success required, unless the rounds really are meant to knock down 80% of the people they hit, even among the PC population).

I am in favor of targets Choice and a penalty of -2 or even a Raise required to me is preferable, but not a hanging point. For reference, here are the odds for such rolls. Remember if the player chooses, then you are most likely shooting versus a d8 or higher.
Wild Card Percentages

d4 is a 62.5% chance of success and 19.3% chance of a raise
d6 is a 75.0% chance of success and a 25.9% chance of a raise
d8 is an 81.2% chance of success and a 24.6% chance of a raise
d10 is an 85.0% chance of success and a 39.8% chance of a raise
d12 is an 87.5% chance of success and a 49.7% chance of a raise

Post by **Freemage** » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:07 pm

Okay, with the further clarification of how difficult it's meant to be--I'm voting Target's Choice, Opposed roll, Raise Required to fully ignore (I'm okay with either the original split-outcome for a success, or my later, admittedly more complicated, 'success outcome based on chosen Attribute' method).

Post by **High Command** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:23 am

Revision based on embracing opposed rolls and choice of resisting stats.

BigBore Knockdown

BigBore "Revolver" Rounds: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice) versus the shooting roll of the attacker. If the target succeeds with a raise, nothing happens. On a success, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A failure pushes the target 1” and knocks them prone. A critical failure pushes the target 2" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.
BigBore "Shotgun" Shells: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice) versus the shooting roll of the attacker at -1. If the target succeeds with a raise, nothing happens. On a success, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A failure pushes the target 2” and knocks them prone. A critical failure pushes the target 3" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.

Post by **Freemage** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:09 am

Approve of the new wording.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:54 am

High Command wrote:Revision based on embracing opposed rolls and choice of resisting stats.

BigBore Knockdown
BigBore "Revolver" Rounds: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice) versus the shooting roll of the attacker. If the target succeeds with a raise, nothing happens. On a success, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A failure pushes the target 1” and knocks them prone. A critical failure pushes the target 2" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.

BigBore "Shotgun" Shells: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength or Agility (target's choice) versus the shooting roll of the attacker at -1. If the target succeeds with a raise, nothing happens. On a success, they are knocked prone, in addition to any damage. A failure pushes the target 2” and knocks them prone. A critical failure pushes the target 3" and knocks them prone. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.

I approve this.

PS: I would hate to get shot by it.

Post by **Tribe of One** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:56 am

I'm not a fan of the "target's choice" of Traits to roll -- I think it's simpler and more logical to just use Strength -- but I'm okay with being outvoted on that.

What IS a deal-breaker for me is requiring a Raise on an opposed check to avoid being knocked prone. As Rob notes, on a straight check, someone rolling a d8 is going to fail and get knocked down 75 percent of the time, and someone with a d12 will get knocked down 50 percent of the time. As an opposed roll vs. Shooting that's going to be considerably worse (as your TN is at least 4 and easily much higher), meaning the target is going to be knocked prone the vast, vast majority of the time. As is, it's a HARD NO vote from me.

In the interest of simplicity and more reasonable odds, I'd eliminate the opposed roll and make it a straight Strength check at -2; failure means knocked prone, success pushed back 1", raise no effect. That's still useful but not overpowering and marries well with the okay damage and ammo versatility established with the revision up-thread.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:11 am

I think this is a mature enough idea it can be reposted with a Poll and options.

Post by **High Command** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:24 pm

Hey Rob, can you run a set of probabilities for me? d20+3 vs d20 and d20+5 vs d20. How often will the unassisted d20 fail? because that will give us the target percentage to shoot for that fails. Once we have that, I'm willing to put it to a poll

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:59 pm

High Command wrote:Hey Rob, can you run a set of probabilities for me? d20+3 vs d20 and d20+5 vs d20. How often will the unassisted d20 fail? because that will give us the target percentage to shoot for that fails. Once we have that, I'm willing to put it to a poll

NP, I made up a little spreadsheet so you can play with it at different modifiers and sent it to you in PM.

Post by **High Command** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:28 pm

Ok, so folks understand how this works in Palladium. You have to have an 8 to hit in ranged combat. (it's a 4 in close combat). So Rob did that sheet he mentioned for me. ties go to the defender. So the only result I'm looking for is those where the roll with the higher modifier (ie has one) wins. That gives us the percentage of time the defender fails and ends up on their butts. Then we can do an apples to apples comparison for our purposes.

So at +1 (common among low skill level characters), the defender fails 52.25% of the time
at +3 it jumps to 61.25%
+5 is 69.5%
+7 is 76.75%
+9 is 83.0%

Anyway, the point is above the bare minimum (equivalent to d4 shooting), the difficulty turns up quick and hard. To me that seems to match to needing a raise. But if -2 covers it well enough, I'm good with that too.

Post by **Freemage** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:31 pm

I think Strength (only) -2 to oppose Shooting would probably be acceptable. As I noted, shooters typically have SOME sort of bonus (+2 being common, +4 not un-heard of). So with an additional -2 on the resistance side of things, that's about the 'raise' level, anyway.

Post by **High Command** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:03 pm

You say this, about bonuses, but the best I can manage is to reduce some penalties.

But I'm also not maximizing for that one thing either.

Post by **Tribe of One** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:27 pm

I don't want to belabor the point, but the argument that "it works like this/works this well in Palladium" isn't one that I consider. I'm looking at this solely from the frame of "does this add an interesting option, balanced against other options in Savage Worlds."

A gun that does average-to-good damage (the 2d6+4 or 3d6+4 we talked about above), can use a variety of ammunition (silver!) and has a small chance (10-50% chance, depending on target skill) of knocking down less-than-PA-sized targets seems reasonably balanced to me, and offers an interesting tactical option in terms of battlefield control/debuffs.

A gun that does average-to-good damage (the 2d6+4 or 3d6+4 we talked about above), can use a variety of ammunition (silver!) and has an overwhelming chance (50-90% chance, largely based on shooter's skill) of knocking down less-than-PA-sized targets seems incredibly OP.

Alternatively, you could dial back the damage so you have a gun that does poor damage (as originally suggested), but maintains the overwhelming chance of knockdown. That might be "balanced" but I don't think it's a particularly interesting/worthwhile option to add. Partly because I find lockdown tactics like that to be really annoying, and partly because I think canny players will find ways around the balance (ie., using a second pistol to still get lockdown along with damage).

Again, my preference is for a balanced gun that gives a chance for occasional knockdowns, but not with such reliability that lockdown/I win strategies can be based around it.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:33 pm

As a note Silver should not be knocking people down and should be reduced damage.
Silver makes for a shit round.

PS: I think the damage should be average not Superstar.

Post by **Tribe of One** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:38 pm

RFT wrote:As a note Silver should not be knocking people down and should be reduced damage.
Silver makes for a shit round.

My mention of silver was in reference to the variety of ammo available -- you wouldn't get the full BigBore damage, but being able to switch out for silver rounds is a huge benefit in certain campaigns, and saves you the weight of carrying an extra gun, which is also a big deal.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:39 pm

Is there any thought to just letting the gun do a ranged push maneuver? If you want damage and push that is two actions just like it would normally be. Substituting shooting for strength on the attackers check.

I would like some kind of way to get a +2 just like moving 3" gets a +2 if this route makes sense.

Post by **Freemage** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:50 pm

Tribe of One wrote:I don't want to belabor the point, but the argument that "it works like this/works this well in Palladium" isn't one that I consider. I'm looking at this solely from the frame of "does this add an interesting option, balanced against other options in Savage Worlds."

A gun that does average-to-good damage (the 2d6+4 or 3d6+4 we talked about above), can use a variety of ammunition (silver!) and has a small chance (10-50% chance, depending on target skill) of knocking down less-than-PA-sized targets seems reasonably balanced to me, and offers an interesting tactical option in terms of battlefield control/debuffs.

A gun that does average-to-good damage (the 2d6+4 or 3d6+4 we talked about above), can use a variety of ammunition (silver!) and has an overwhelming chance (50-90% chance, largely based on shooter's skill) of knocking down less-than-PA-sized targets seems incredibly OP.

Alternatively, you could dial back the damage so you have a gun that does poor damage (as originally suggested), but maintains the overwhelming chance of knockdown. That might be "balanced" but I don't think it's a particularly interesting/worthwhile option to add. Partly because I find lockdown tactics like that to be really annoying, and partly because I think canny players will find ways around the balance (ie., using a second pistol to still get lockdown along with damage).

Again, my preference is for a balanced gun that gives a chance for occasional knockdowns, but not with such reliability that lockdown/I win strategies can be based around it.

Thing is, knocking someone down in SR is nowhere near what it is in just about any other game. It's a temporary advantage for someone standing close enough to pounce on you with a melee attack, or it might work to slow (marginally) an attacker who is attempting to close to melee range with you.

Compared to, say, 3.X D&D (where getting Tripped was tantamount to getting one or more free attacks against you when you tried to stand up, which would reduce your own ability to act because it was a full move action), getting Prone'd in this setting is not really much worse than getting Tricked or Tested (and, in fact, those two are actually more effective in the long run, since they have a reasonable odds of Shaking you, thereby setting you up for worse damage on follow-up attacks or at least eating a benny, whereas this only has that result if you were standing in front of an inconvenient wall at the time you got pushed).

Post by **Tribe of One** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:08 pm

A D&D-style trip monster is certainly what I worry about. But I also don't think we ought to crank the reliability of any maneuver too high, even if the consequences are less severe.

What about using existing rules as a guide: The shard pistol already gives us an idea of how a gun that inflicts a status effect ought to work. It's on the upper end of personal weapon effectiveness, so a BigBore weapon shouldn't have a significant advantage over it.

For the shard pistol, it's an opposed roll, wielder's Shooting vs. Target's Vigor; success for the Shooter = status effect, or worse status effect on a raise. For the BigBore, it would seem reasonable to instead use wielder's Shooting vs. Target's Strength.

As for the status effect, we're basically talking about a gun that allows ranged Pushes/Trips, so why not use the standard Push rules as a basis? On a success for the shooter, the target is pushed 1". On a raise for the shooter, the target is pushed 2" and also knocked prone.

Combine that with 2d6+4 AP 0 Mega Damage for the pistol, and it seems very comparable to the shard pistol. For the rifle, kicking the damage up to 3d6+4 is probably still fine, along with a modifier (-1, -2?) to the target's Strength check.

Altogether, I think that gives a weapon that is on par with existing options while adding an interesting tactical option that triggers often enough to be useful but not so reliably it creates an exploit. AND, it's not any more complicated than existing options.

Post by **High Command** » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:19 pm

Well we're getting closer at least.

The prone is more important (fluff wise) than the push, so success = prone, raise = push 1" and prone; I liked the idea of a crit failure by the target being worse, but I'll let that go. I think we can agree on the rest.

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:15 am

High Command wrote:The prone is more important (fluff wise) than the push, so success = prone, raise = push 1" and prone; I liked the idea of a crit failure by the target being worse, but I'll let that go. I think we can agree on the rest.

I'm there with you. As a player, I'm looking for a weapon that reliably knocks the bad guys down and does some damage to boot. Damage doesn't have to be high (though I'd like if it weren't super low), but if it doesn't knock its targets down regularly, I'm better off with an ion blaster (more damage, better range, +2 to Shooting). The knockdown is the gun.

Tribe of One wrote:A gun that does average-to-good damage (the 2d6+4 or 3d6+4 we talked about above), can use a variety of ammunition (silver!) and has a small chance (10-50% chance, depending on target skill) of knocking down less-than-PA-sized targets seems reasonably balanced to me, and offers an interesting tactical option in terms of battlefield control/debuffs.

A gun that does average-to-good damage (the 2d6+4 or 3d6+4 we talked about above), can use a variety of ammunition (silver!) and has an overwhelming chance (50-90% chance, largely based on shooter's skill) of knocking down less-than-PA-sized targets seems incredibly OP.

Alternatively, you could dial back the damage so you have a gun that does poor damage (as originally suggested), but maintains the overwhelming chance of knockdown. That might be "balanced" but I don't think it's a particularly interesting/worthwhile option to add. Partly because I find lockdown tactics like that to be really annoying, and partly because I think canny players will find ways around the balance (ie., using a second pistol to still get lockdown along with damage).

Again, my preference is for a balanced gun that gives a chance for occasional knockdowns, but not with such reliability that lockdown/I win strategies can be based around it.

I would rather one that provided knockdowns reliably and gave a chance to wound rather than the other way around. As a player, I want to be able to use a strategy centered around the weapon's core, defining characteristic. I don't see that as a bad thing.

I also tend to agree with Tribe on the Palladium comparisons. I know I've done them myself before, but, in retrospect, the reason I'm not playing Rifts on Palladium is that I don't love the mechanics of that system. That said, the fluff is system agnostic (and making a weapon that translates the fluff into mechanics is the goal), and the fluff is all about knockdown and big, scary guns.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:56 am

Revision based on Tribe's and Hardin's Input. Note, I did give it a -1 to make it a bit more reliable, but not so much as to make it unbearable. The shotgun round has greater effects than the revolver round. Effects are tied to the shooter's roll more so than the target's failure.

BigBore Knockdown

BigBore "Revolver" Rounds: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength at -1 versus the shooting roll of the attacker. If the target fails, they are knocked prone, or pushed 1" and knocked prone if the shooter gets a raise on the roll. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.
BigBore "Shotgun" Shells: If hit, whether damaged or not, the target of the attack rolls Strength at -2 versus the shooting roll of the attacker. If the target fails, they are pushed 1" and knocked prone, or pushed 2" and knocked prone if the shooter gets a raise on the roll. This does not affect targets size 3 or greater. If they hit an obstacle while being pushed, they can be Shaken, as per the Push Maneuver on SWD p. 85. The same page also has information on the effects of Prone.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:34 am

Yep, I would approve this version also.

Post by **Radecliffe** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:11 pm

Just going to point out the damage of these weapons even with the +4 is not that impressive given the lack of AP. Against standard armor most laser pistols have a better chance of doing damage than the BB pistol. It's ability to knock down is still its primary selling point.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:08 am

Just going to throw this out. Every weapon in SR seems to have a special feature that just happens. Lasers have higher ap, ions bonus to hit, plasma area effect. Why not just go with target is knocked down, and on a raise pushed 1"?

No opposed rolls just happens, limit it to only effects size 3 and below or something.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:30 am

Pender Lumkiss wrote:Just going to throw this out. Every weapon in SR seems to have a special feature that just happens. Lasers have higher ap, ions bonus to hit, plasma area effect. Why not just go with target is knocked down, and on a raise pushed 1"?

No opposed rolls just happens, limit it to only effects size 3 and below or something.

It is limited to human sized so perhaps size 1 and bellow if removing the roll all together.

Post by **Tribe of One** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:05 am

None of the features you mentioned are anywhere near as effective as a status effect like prone though. I could get on board with HC's last proposal (though I think the - 1 on pistols is a tad too much) but it's a hard no from me on auto knockdown.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:35 am

Pushed 1" is that really any more bad than plasma area effect? Basically 1d6 damage or I guess dead if a off a cliff. Maybe an agility roll if that 1" would result in a case of the dead as you grab hold of something to save your life.

Prone: costs 2" to get up, gives medium cover vs range more than 3", and -2 parry from Melee. Seems to have good things and bad things. Seems close to the other weapon effects.

Limiting it to human size would be fine by me. The general fluff seems to support big things are not effected ( at a basic level).

Post by **Tribe of One** » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:53 pm

You don't need a Size limitation if you just go with an opposed Strength roll. Big things tend to have high Strength and will resist.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:07 am

Tribe of One wrote:You don't need a Size limitation if you just go with an opposed Strength roll. Big things tend to have high Strength and will resist.

True

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:43 pm

Tribe of One wrote:You don't need a Size limitation if you just go with an opposed Strength roll. Big things tend to have high Strength and will resist.

Good point. I think I'd lean toward the Strength roll, but auto knockdown also sounds cool. As long as there's a mechanic for getting the bad guy on the ground consistently, I'll be happy.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:55 pm

Auto Knockdown in the 13th and vampire kingdoms for sure. Just do it. Give lasers AP, plasma area effect, ion to hit bonus, and bigbore auto knockdown. Done!

Hardin · Post by **Hardin** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:56 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:Auto Knockdown in the 13th and vampire kingdoms for sure. Just do it. Give lasers AP, plasma area effect, ion to hit bonus, and bigbore auto knockdown. Done!

Hey, I wouldn't argue against that.

Ndreare · Post by **Ndreare** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:36 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:Auto Knockdown in the 13th and vampire kingdoms for sure. Just do it. Give lasers AP, plasma area effect, ion to hit bonus, and bigbore auto knockdown. Done!

We need a consistent system across sight. For example Hardin has one in the 99. So wet need a rule everyone sees eye to eye on.

Post by **High Command** » Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:59 pm

Poll enabled above. Choose your preferred option. I updated the post with the rules above the Tribe and Rob said they could get behind.

Which version of Knockdown do we use?