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1. Proposals are approved or denied no later than five days after the quarter ends. They may be approved sooner as time and GM consensus allows.
2. All GMs will vote yay or nay. Administrator has veto rights and also breaks ties.
3. Failed proposals should be resubmitted or dropped once approval is given or denied. Failed proposals will be deleted within 3 days of a decision.
4. Even proposals that are allowed are subject to editting by the Administrator or GMs.
5. Anyone may comment on a proposed rule.
6. Less is more: Players are reminded that when in doubt, renaming or retrapping is always better than new rules.
7. Show your math where applicable (preferably at the end, in shorthand), but make sure the final result could be put into an official book in terms of topic coverage, fluff, and layout.
8. Templates will be provided to ensure coherency of look and ease of approval.
9. If the proposal only applies to a very limited case (one PC/player) then takes it up with your GM. This forum is for rules which will be adopted site wide. Frame your proposals with that in mind.



Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
 Character Deaths 

Every One Can Vote
Poll ended at Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:59 pm
 
Freemage, Hans Greuber, Radecliffe, Nomed Dercas, SnackHappy, High Command, Tribe of One, Maximilian, Kuikku, Hardin, Egil Skallgrim, Erin Sol, Corrigon, RFT
 
Qoat
 
Kim Black, Calyx, Pender Lumkiss, AwkTech, Capt. Murdok
Patreon Patron & Signature items are retained and recreated with the replacement character. 71%  71%  [ 15 ]
Patreon Patron & Signature items are lost with the character and do not carryover. 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Only Patreon Patron items are retained and recreated for the new character. Signature items are lost with the character and do not carryover. 24%  24%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 21

 Character Deaths 
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Diamond Patron
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In an attempt to nail down the rules for character deaths and changing characters we have an opertunity for your voice to be heard. Both Players and GM' can vote on this one, so please join in. This poll will close in 6 days.

The Question Is: Should Patreon and/or Signature items be retained by the player through a characters death?





Deaths & Retirements
Character deaths are a part of adventuring. But they are not the end to adventuring.
  • Death: When your character dies on an adventure you may make a new character with the same earned experience as the character that dies. However, the new character does not benefit from experience awarded from the previous characters Iconic Framework (such as the MARS +20 XP).
  • Retirement: Generally when you retire a character you may replace it with a new character also carrying over earned experience. However, like a character death new character does not benefit from experience awarded from the previous characters Iconic Framework (such as the MARS +20 XP).
  • Exceptions: Role Playing is about cooperative story telling. If a Game Master feels you are changing characters frequently enough to disrupt the adventures or inhibit the enjoyment of others he may chose to decline to award your new character any or all of the previous character’s experience. If you feel you have been wronged in this a PM sent to both your game master and a site administrator can be used to appeal the decision. The administrator’s ruling is final.
  • Patron & Signature Items: Patreon Patron & Signature Item Slots on the player accounts are retained by the player and can be used for the same or another character. (Restricted to no more than one per character.)
  • EP Purchases: Any EP purchases such as additional rolls on tables, still a hero or others are lost with the character and do not carryover.


Note: This is a known deviation from Savage Worlds Deluxe page 47 “Replacement Characters” as the rules as written are punitive to players who already lost their character.

_________________
GM Bennies
Game Master Bennies Baseline 6/8
    -1 For Lt. Brock's Extra Effort on Agility test to go first.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C. to wing while fleeing


Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:59 pm
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Related question. What's the policy for Patron/Signature items lost in play where the character survives. I feel like the death policy should mirror that (or the loss policy should mirror the death if that's what's being decided first).

_________________
Corporal Lucius Draper
Coalitiong States Command Specialist
Pace: 6, d6 Run; Parry: 4; Toughness:14(7); Strain: 2/6
Wounds: 0; Fatigue: 0
Conditions:
  • None
Defenses/Abilities/Active Effects:
  • None
Edges:
  • Command: Allies within 5” receive +1 to recover from Shaken
  • Tactician: At the beginning of a fight, make a K/Battle roll. Gain an additional Initiative card for success and each raise. Each round, after Initiative is dealt one or more of the cards can be given to allies to be used in place of their dealt card.
Weapons: Current clip noted by asterisk(*)
  • C-30 Laser Pistol - Hip Holster
    • Ammo: (30/30*); (30/30) - 2 e-clips
  • CP-40 Pulse Laser Rifle - Sling
    • Ammo: (60/60*); (60/60); (60/60) - 3 e-clips
  • Neural Mace - Belt
  • Fragmentation Grenade - Webbing
    • 2/2
Credits: 3,204
Bennies: 3/3




Account EP Reference
Lucius Draper Ledger
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Current Balance: 7


Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:22 pm
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Lucius Draper wrote:
Related question. What's the policy for Patron/Signature items lost in play where the character survives. I feel like the death policy should mirror that (or the loss policy should mirror the death if that's what's being decided first).

I cannot say, but I feel it is very valid concern.

I know as a GM if I destroy a character's signature item, he can expect a replacement coming in game soon within a session. Otherwise it would just feel too punitive. "Oh sorry you wasted 10 EP on that, but I figured a villain with acid spray would be fun. Well you win some you lose some."

_________________
GM Bennies
Game Master Bennies Baseline 6/8
    -1 For Lt. Brock's Extra Effort on Agility test to go first.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C. to wing while fleeing


Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:41 pm
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RFT wrote:
Lucius Draper wrote:
Related question. What's the policy for Patron/Signature items lost in play where the character survives. I feel like the death policy should mirror that (or the loss policy should mirror the death if that's what's being decided first).

I cannot say, but I feel it is very valid concern.

I know as a GM if I destroy a character's signature item, he can expect a replacement coming in game soon within a session. Otherwise it would just feel too punitive. "Oh sorry you wasted 10 EP on that, but I figured a villain with acid spray would be fun. Well you win some you lose some."


I thought the original description of the patreon item was that it could be lost/destroyed in the course of normal game play. That I'd see as legitimate as long as the GM isn't just trying to muck up everyone's special stuff. I don't get the impression from any of the GMs on the site that they're the types to burn gear just for their own enjoyment.

_________________
Maximilian
Maximilian character sheet
Alex - Allied Extra character sheet
Bennies: 2 (+1 quarter rewards, -1 extra effort red vault dial, -1 extra effort red vault doors, -1 extra effort exit to Nadine, +1 interlude)
Parry: 7
Toughness: 14(5) (SFD Huntsman Light Personal Armor, Tough Breed)
Pace: 6
Edges: Robot Armor Jock, Ace, Combat Ace, Ambidextrous, Quick, Level Headed, Charismatic, I Know A Guy, Elan, Battle Hardened,
Weapon in hand: none
Weapon in holster:
Wilk's 227 Pulse Laser
    Range: 18/36/72
    Damage 2d6+1, AP 2
    ROF 2, Payload 24, Semi auto, 3RB
2 spare e-clips
Standard out-of-robot gear from NG-S2: flashlight, compass, radio, first aid kit, fire starter, wooden cross, 1 flare, 30 feet rope
Adventure Cards
    Joker's Gone Wild - Play this card to swap your initiative card with any Joker drawn for initiative.
    Teamwork - Your Hero and any adjacent allies add +4 to their next trait rolls. The allies must be adjacent when the card is played to receive the bonus.
    Better You Than Me - Play when your hero has been hit by an attack and there is an adjacent character. The other character suffers the attack instead. This may be played on friend or foe.
Titan TR-001 Combat Robot
Size: 8
Crew: 1+2
Toughness: 44 (22)
Pace: 10
Weapons:
    Medium Rail Gun
      Range: 100/200/400
      Damage: 3d10+4, AP 14
      ROF 3, shots 60
    Medium Missile Launchers (2)
      Range: 200/400/800
      Damage: 8d6, AP 15, MBT
      ROF 1, shots 4
    Mini Missile Launchers (2)
      Range: 100/200/400
      Damage: 5d6, AP 6, SBT
      ROF 1, shots 12
    Medium Laser
      Range: 150/300/600
      Damage: 3d10, AP 10
      ROF 1
    Dino Bladder Water Cannon
      Range: cone
      Damage: 3d10
      5 bursts
    Good Night
      Melee damage: Str + 2d10 MD Plasma
      Plasma Ejector damage:
      • 2d6 plasma & heat (vigor -2 or suffer level of fatigue
      • 3d6 using 2 shots
      • 6d6 using 4 shots
      Payload: 10 shots unless hooked to permanent power supply
      ROF: 3
Edit Signature


Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:29 pm
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On the main question, I do think the Signature Item SLOT should remain after a character death. I'm absolutely convinced the Patron Slot should. But the Slot is tied to the player, not the character. So if one of your four characters dies, and he was the one with the Sig Item, you can turn around and either assign that Slot to another character (so long as the other character doesn't have one already, of course), or to a new character you create as a replacement.

As for items lost in play, it feels a bit situational. There's three possibilities there:

1: The item is basically part of the character once made, and thus survives anything, like Indy's hat--if it gets away from you for a bit, that's irritating, but you'll get it back over the course of play, even if things get weird to make it happen.
2: The item can be lost completely normally. I'll note that TW/Super-Tech items are subject to Technical Difficulties, which includes the possibility of item destruction.
3: The item can be lost, but the Slot is retained. In this case, the Slot remains tied to the character (unlike what I described above for character death), so a new item should be made to replace it, and introduced in the course of play again.

I like 3 the most--it requires far less Handwavium than 1, but is more player-friendly than 2. Whether the new item is a literal replacement of the old one, or something completely different, is up to the player and the GM to work out.

_________________
GM Bennies (7th SET, Joker's Jokers): 7/7
GMC Bennies:





Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:52 pm
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When I first looked at this poll I was somewhat torn. Patreon Item was easy, that is a "thank you" for supporting the site so it will stay. Sig Item on the other hand is something you pay for, like extra bennies or whatever, and may not get the same consideration. Then I thought what if a player goes through the process of getting an item approved and then has his character's head explode two weeks later. That is a lot of effort, and cost, for something that may have never seen use. This is why I voted in favor of keeping both/all items.

Freemage wrote:
3: The item can be lost, but the Slot is retained. In this case, the Slot remains tied to the character (unlike what I described above for character death), so a new item should be made to replace it, and introduced in the course of play again.

That is also the reason I like this option for item destruction. It avoids any possibility of "I got screwed out of EP" but still gives the GM the ability to continue to throw dangerous things at a party.

_________________
Character
Kuikku
Parry: 7
Toughness: 12(6)
Toughness with Cyber-Armor active: 18(8) MDC


Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:23 pm
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RFT wrote:
Lucius Draper wrote:
Related question. What's the policy for Patron/Signature items lost in play where the character survives. I feel like the death policy should mirror that (or the loss policy should mirror the death if that's what's being decided first).

I cannot say, but I feel it is very valid concern.

I know as a GM if I destroy a character's signature item, he can expect a replacement coming in game soon within a session. Otherwise it would just feel too punitive. "Oh sorry you wasted 10 EP on that, but I figured a villain with acid spray would be fun. Well you win some you lose some."

This is why I asked, I don't like the idea that you might replace it while other harsh GM won't. It throws out the economics of Patronage and EP.

_________________
Corporal Lucius Draper
Coalitiong States Command Specialist
Pace: 6, d6 Run; Parry: 4; Toughness:14(7); Strain: 2/6
Wounds: 0; Fatigue: 0
Conditions:
  • None
Defenses/Abilities/Active Effects:
  • None
Edges:
  • Command: Allies within 5” receive +1 to recover from Shaken
  • Tactician: At the beginning of a fight, make a K/Battle roll. Gain an additional Initiative card for success and each raise. Each round, after Initiative is dealt one or more of the cards can be given to allies to be used in place of their dealt card.
Weapons: Current clip noted by asterisk(*)
  • C-30 Laser Pistol - Hip Holster
    • Ammo: (30/30*); (30/30) - 2 e-clips
  • CP-40 Pulse Laser Rifle - Sling
    • Ammo: (60/60*); (60/60); (60/60) - 3 e-clips
  • Neural Mace - Belt
  • Fragmentation Grenade - Webbing
    • 2/2
Credits: 3,204
Bennies: 3/3




Account EP Reference
Lucius Draper Ledger
Make a Request
Current Balance: 7


Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:40 am
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Sounds like at the heart ans soul the question is more of the following:

"When we buy a Signature Item, are we buying an item or are we buying a Slot for an item?"

_________________
GM Bennies
Game Master Bennies Baseline 6/8
    -1 For Lt. Brock's Extra Effort on Agility test to go first.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C. to wing while fleeing


Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:24 pm
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If you want to avoid the "pay to win" mentality then it works better to think of it as a slot. That way a patron really doesn't get anything that a non-patron can't get. The patron just gets it a little faster and/or cheaper. Everyone can earn EP. Patrons just get a bit extra as a patron reward. Everyone should be able to purchase a Signature (Patron) Item slot. Patrons just get one extra as a patron reward.

I think it is better for the site to avoid a situation where patrons get something that a non-patron just isn't allowed to have or make the non-patron version less valuable.

_________________
Ancient wisdom from the Golden Age: Don't Panic.

Professor Adam Radecliffe
Professor Adam Radecliffe (Rogue Scholar)
Bennies 3 of 4

Player: James
Alts: Fizzwaite Zipwidget, Hawdore, Sparkmort "Sparky" Zipwidget

Agility d8 | Smarts d10 | Spirit d8 | Strength d6 | Vigor d6
Pace 6 | Parry 5 | Toughness 12(5)

Frequently used skills
Alertness d8 + 2
Persuasion d8 + 2
Shooting d8

Edges
Scholar [Archaeology, History]: +2 to Knowledge(Archaeology) and Knowledge(History)
Investigator: +2 Investigation and Streetwise
Linguist: Begin play with a number of languages equal to Smarts (@ Smarts die level); Smarts –2 to be understood in any language heard for a week
Charismatic: +2 to Charisma
Strong Willed: +2 to Intimidation and Taunt, +2 to resist Tests of Will
Brawny: +1 Toughness and load limit is 8 x STR
Brave: +2 to Fear tests
Elan: +2 when spending a Benny on a Trait roll (including soak rolls)
Alertness: +2 Notice
Steady Hands: Ignore unstable platform penalty; Running penalty reduced to –1

Hindrances
(Major) Curious: The mysteries of the world await
(Minor) Wanted [Coalition]: Possession of forbidden knowledge with intent to distribute
(Minor) Bad Eyes: The spirit is willing but the eyes can't see a damned thing


Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:50 pm
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Radecliffe wrote:
If you want to avoid the "pay to win" mentality then it works better to think of it as a slot. That way a patron really doesn't get anything that a non-patron can't get. The patron just gets it a little faster and/or cheaper. Everyone can earn EP. Patrons just get a bit extra as a patron reward. Everyone should be able to purchase a Signature (Patron) Item slot. Patrons just get one extra as a patron reward.

I think it is better for the site to avoid a situation where patrons get something that a non-patron just isn't allowed to have or make the non-patron version less valuable.

I think this is a very valid point of view. Perhaps I need to change my vote/opinion.

_________________
GM Bennies
Game Master Bennies Baseline 6/8
    -1 For Lt. Brock's Extra Effort on Agility test to go first.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C. to wing while fleeing


Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:20 pm
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Radecliffe wrote:
If you want to avoid the "pay to win" mentality then it works better to think of it as a slot. That way a patron really doesn't get anything that a non-patron can't get. The patron just gets it a little faster and/or cheaper. Everyone can earn EP. Patrons just get a bit extra as a patron reward. Everyone should be able to purchase a Signature (Patron) Item slot. Patrons just get one extra as a patron reward.

I think it is better for the site to avoid a situation where patrons get something that a non-patron just isn't allowed to have or make the non-patron version less valuable.


Seconded. I very much like the idea of a signature item slot, for the reasons posted above.

_________________
Hardin
Hardin a Half-Elf Psi-Slinger
Parry: 5
Toughness: 13(5)
Notable Edges/Hindrances: Strong-Willed, Nerves of Steel, Quick, Marksman, Wanted (Major): Coalition, Illiterate
Skills: Fighting d6, Shooting d10, Riding d6 + 2, Notice d8, Psionics d10, Survival d6, Intimidate d6 + 3
Powers: Push (smite*) costs +1 ISP for +2 AP, ‘Kinesis (telekinesis) on a raise, gains effects of Steady Hands, Resist Energy (deflection*) gives the raise effect but is only good against energy (or partial-energy) attacks, Clear Mind (boost Trait*) costs +1 ISP to activate and has different trappings for each attribute and linked skills
Current Ongoing Effects: None
ISP: 4/30 (regenerate 1/30 min)
Charisma: -2 (Half-elves treated as outsiders)
Wounds: 0/4
Fatigue: 0/3
Action Cards: redraw 5 or below
Bennies: 4/3
    +1 for Q3 post rate
    +1 for Interlude in scene 5
    +1 for Joker in scene 6
    -1 for Extra Effort in scene 6
    -1 for more Extra Effort in scene 6
Equipment of Note: A Spiffy Hat (+1 to Intimidation, Rapid Recharge Edge, +2 to damage w/TW weapons or direct damage powers, Always Present), Piecemeal CA-7 armor (possession is a “shoot-on-sight” crime with any Coalition troops), Shard Pistol (returns to his hand as a free action and lower Trait (Vigor) activated by Shooting), “Judgment Day” rifle with attached scope (stats of a Wilk’s 457 pulse rifle), TK Revolver, Colt Dragoon .44 Revolver with silver bullets
Robot Horse: Agility d8, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d12+5, Vigor d12
  • Fighting d8, Notice d8 + 2, Survival d6
  • Pace 12 (Acc/TS 10/50)
  • Parry 6
  • Toughness 20(10) MDC
  • All-Terrain: +2 to Riding checks
  • Sensor Suite (+2 to Notice, power armor sensor package)
  • Kick does Strength + d6 Mega Damage
  • Size +2
Adventure Cards:
  • Folk Hero - Play after you save a group of people from dire circumstances. The community adopts you and your party as local heroes, and you can always find aid there.
  • Rabbit Out of My Hat - Play this card to gain +2 on any Trick test until the end of the scene.
[/list]
Character Sheet
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Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:50 pm
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Okay,

So I let this play out for a while.

I like letting signature/patron items be "slots" like character accounts. Items can be lost, broken, stolen, etc. but eventually some item comes back to the character. This is the way SR treats Glitterboys too, so it makes a little sense within the existing framework. This also means item slots can be used upon character death to make a new signature item for the new character.

If that works, we can amend the above, stick it house rules and have fun. This set of rules means death can happen for dramatic purposes, or just a concept refresh if a character is getting old without a bunch of drama attached.

Overall, I like that there is no "death penalty".

VV

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Didn't have a signature but wanted the 1 EP for using OOC tags!


Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:05 am
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Okay I will make the revisions.

_________________
GM Bennies
Game Master Bennies Baseline 6/8
    -1 For Lt. Brock's Extra Effort on Agility test to go first.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C. to wing while fleeing


Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:23 am
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Final Version for adding to House Rules
If you like this VV, I will lock this thread and add to the House Rules. I believe it is clear in expressing the dominant view.




Deaths & Retirements
Character deaths are a part of adventuring. But they are not the end to adventuring.
  • Death: When your character dies on an adventure you may make a new character with the same earned experience as the character that dies. However, the new character does not benefit from experience awarded from the previous characters Iconic Framework (such as the MARS +20 XP).
  • Retirement: Generally when you retire a character you may replace it with a new character also carrying over earned experience. However, like a character death new character does not benefit from experience awarded from the previous characters Iconic Framework (such as the MARS +20 XP).
  • Exceptions: Role Playing is about cooperative story telling. If a Game Master feels you are changing characters frequently enough to disrupt the adventures or inhibit the enjoyment of others he may chose to decline to award your new character any or all of the previous character’s experience. If you feel you have been wronged in this a PM sent to both your game master and a site administrator can be used to appeal the decision. The administrator’s ruling is final.
  • Patron & Signature Items: Patreon Patron & Signature Item Slots on the player accounts are retained by the player and can be used for the same or another character. (Restricted to no more than one per character.)
  • EP Purchases: Any EP purchases such as additional rolls on tables, still a hero or others are lost with the character and do not carryover.


Note: This is a known deviation from Savage Worlds Deluxe page 47 “Replacement Characters” as the rules as written are punitive to players who already lost their character.

_________________
GM Bennies
Game Master Bennies Baseline 6/8
    -1 For Lt. Brock's Extra Effort on Agility test to go first.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C. to wing while fleeing


Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:28 am
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Since you added a line to allow transferring a patron/signature item to another character I'd also just explicitly state the limit is still one slot per character. Just to avoid confusion.

_________________
Ancient wisdom from the Golden Age: Don't Panic.

Professor Adam Radecliffe
Professor Adam Radecliffe (Rogue Scholar)
Bennies 3 of 4

Player: James
Alts: Fizzwaite Zipwidget, Hawdore, Sparkmort "Sparky" Zipwidget

Agility d8 | Smarts d10 | Spirit d8 | Strength d6 | Vigor d6
Pace 6 | Parry 5 | Toughness 12(5)

Frequently used skills
Alertness d8 + 2
Persuasion d8 + 2
Shooting d8

Edges
Scholar [Archaeology, History]: +2 to Knowledge(Archaeology) and Knowledge(History)
Investigator: +2 Investigation and Streetwise
Linguist: Begin play with a number of languages equal to Smarts (@ Smarts die level); Smarts –2 to be understood in any language heard for a week
Charismatic: +2 to Charisma
Strong Willed: +2 to Intimidation and Taunt, +2 to resist Tests of Will
Brawny: +1 Toughness and load limit is 8 x STR
Brave: +2 to Fear tests
Elan: +2 when spending a Benny on a Trait roll (including soak rolls)
Alertness: +2 Notice
Steady Hands: Ignore unstable platform penalty; Running penalty reduced to –1

Hindrances
(Major) Curious: The mysteries of the world await
(Minor) Wanted [Coalition]: Possession of forbidden knowledge with intent to distribute
(Minor) Bad Eyes: The spirit is willing but the eyes can't see a damned thing


Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:44 am
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Radecliffe wrote:
Since you added a line to allow transferring a patron/signature item to another character I'd also just explicitly state the limit is still one slot per character. Just to avoid confusion.

Okay, good point.

_________________
GM Bennies
Game Master Bennies Baseline 6/8
    -1 For Lt. Brock's Extra Effort on Agility test to go first.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C.
    -1 For SAMAS to Soak Shot from L.C. to wing while fleeing


Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:30 am
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