Temporal Magic (v. 12.0)

[Venatus Vinco]

Savaging Temporal Magic
Wizards and Warriors who bend time and space to steal, raid, and pillage for their inhuman masters. Who wouldn't want to play one right?

In Palladium Rifts, Temporal magic is a powerful magic art that is only known by a few beings in the Megaverse. The most infamous is the Temporal Raider, these evil aliens marauder about the Megaverse using their magic to conduct daring raids and heists. To aid them in their work, Raiders train acolytes as Temporal Wizards and Temporal Warriors. These disciples serve their masters in exchange for access to temporal magic and wealth. After a period of servitude they are free to do what they wish. Unfortunately, years of seeing and experiencing the depravity of their masters most of these "free" beings continue with a life of inter-dimensional pirating. Yet some, despite their jaded outlook on things, end up serving the cause of good.

Design Notes
For this submission we turned the dial up to 12 and ripped off the knob. Recognizing temporal magic is powerful and unique we created a temporal magic version of every power. In game terms this functions like Mega powers.

• Temporal powers are high-powered expansions of existing Savage Worlds powers.
• A character with the Temporal Wizard edge automatically has the Temporal Power option for each power she knows.
• If they have Master of Magic they also have Mega power options. That’s right, three power options: regular, mega, or temporal. Each with their own benefits and limitations.
• Limited access to the temporal power options are also possible via the Temporal Power Edge and Temporal Warrior Edges (below) which grant access to the temporal power option for a single power.
• Temporal powers are not greater than mega powers (in fact many times the damage, range or duration is lower). The design intent is for them to be equal in power but distinct in application. Essentially a super trapping.
• We merged together temporal magic and phase powers from the source material. This unified two very similar ability sets and allows for future creation of other temporal of phase beings like Promethean Phase Adepts or an alien Phase Mystic.

Areas for Input
This submission obviously brings a lot of new twists on existing powers. They should be looked at both from a Savage game mechanic lens and also a “feel of the original” lens. So comments in both areas are appreciated.

Structure of Submission

1) The Path to Temporal Magic
The edges and skills needed to unlock the art of temporal magic

2) Temporal Powers & Trappings
The complete list of temporal powers

3) Iconic Edges
Unique edges for Temporal Wizards and Warriors

Process of Review
Due to the “wall of text” this submission may produce you have linked to the Google Docs for easier reading and review. Comments, suggestions, and feedback can be made to this thread. Also, for those who are interested, we have set-up a Hangouts channel to discuss the submission (this should hopefully prevent us blowing up the main channel).

Document

Hangout

[Freemage]

Okay, so:

Temporal Warrior [Iconic]
Requirements: ARES or MARS, Novice, Arcane Background (Magic), Tricky Fighter, Spellcasting d8+, Fighting d6+
Temporal warriors are merciless fighters trained by Temporal Raiders to be living weapons. They use fast attacks, confusion, and disorientation to serve their masters. As a free action, a Temporal Warrior can spend 1 Power Point to allow a disorienting trick to cause a level of Fatigue to an already shaken target. In addition, upon taking this Edge, and at each new Rank, they may choose to gain the Temporal Power version of one of the following powers: boost/lower trait, deflection, confusion, smite, quickness, or speed. The Warrior must have the power to begin with. Temporal warriors can also take the following Ley Line Walker and Shifter abilities as advances:
(Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Sense, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Transmission, (Ley Line Walker) Expanded Awareness, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Regeneration, (Shifter) Dimension Sense, (Shifter) Rift Mastery

Obviously, this was modeled on Adept. Cool.

However, this part:

They use fast attacks, confusion, and disorientation to serve their masters. As a free action, a Temporal Warrior can spend 1 Power Point to allow a disorienting trick to cause a level of Fatigue to an already shaken target.

1: I'm assuming by "disorienting trick" you mean, "Trick Maneuver that scores a Raise"? It should be called out as such, if that's what you're going for.
2: Is the PPE spent before or after the Trick is rolled for?
3: Is there any cap on how far this can go? Can you kill someone by Tricking them repeatedly?
4: This ability is dramatically more useful than the free pseudo-Martial Artist* that comes with Adept. As in, I would buy it, without the Power Trapping aspect, for my trick-fighting character in a heartbeat if it was generally available. Hell, I'd pester Corrigan to let me see if I could tweak my existing character to retcon it in. It's THAT good--which makes me very leery of it being just the 'icing' on the core function of the Edge.


*: For point of comparison, Martial Artist is generally regarded as one of the weakest Edges in the game, even in non-tech-heavy settings. It's so weak that it was combined with another weak Edge (Bruiser) to make a single HJ table entry (whch normally are meant to be an Edge-equivalent in power). Generally, the only reason to take it is if you're going for Martial Arts Master--and the Adept Edge doesn't even count as a substitute pre-req for Improved Martial Artist or MAM, so really, it's just a small bonus.

[Freemage]

Temporal Wizard
Temporal Wizards are powerful spell casters and Masters of Temporal magic. Wizards could start out as Ley Line Walkers, Shifters, or be trained from the ground up by their cruel masters.

Temporal Wizard [Iconic]
Requirements: ARES, Ley Line Walker, or Shifter, Heroic, Master of Magic, Arcane Background (Magic), Smarts d8+, Arcane Skill d10+, Knowledge (Arcana) d8+
You have learned the secret art of Temporal Magic. This special training grants spellcasters exceptional might and capability in bending time and space. A Master of Temporal Magic gains the Temporal Power option for each power he knows upon taking this Edge. Each time he takes the New Power Edge, he gains both the power and its Temporal Power use as well. This stacks with Master of Magic. Temporal wizards can take the following Ley Line Walker and Shifter abilities as advances:
(Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Magic Mastery, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Sense, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Transmission, (Ley Line Walker) Expanded Awareness, (Shifter) Dimension Sense, (Shifter) Rift Mastery

Experienced Spellcasters Some experienced Ley Line Walkers and Shifters, through study, contacts, or relationships with the supernatural can learn limited Temporal Magic. Unlike dedicated Temporal Wizards they do not have complete mastery of temporal magic but a few focused abilities they have picked up along the way.

Temporal Power [Power]
Requirements: Seasoned, Master of Magic, Spellcasting d8+, Arcane Background (Magic)
You may choose one Temporal Power for a Power you have. You may choose powers of your rank or less.

Okay, your rules text and your flavor text aren't matching, here.

The flavor would suggest that Temporal Wizards should only be the MARS/ARES variety; if you want your LLW/Shifter to gain access to the trappings, you need to use the Temporal Power Edge. As it's written right now, I can see no reason for any LLW or Shifter who wants Temporal Trappings to NOT take Temporal Wizard. (And I would fully expect every LLW/Shifter made from here on out to take Heroic, just to lock that in. Also, why are Temporal Wizards all Heroic? That seems an odd consequence for their servitude period.

[Venatus Vinco]

The flavor would suggest that Temporal Wizards should only be the MARS/ARES variety; if you want your LLW/Shifter to gain access to the trappings, you need to use the Temporal Power Edge. As it's written right now, I can see no reason for any LLW or Shifter who wants Temporal Trappings to NOT take Temporal Wizard. (And I would fully expect every LLW/Shifter made from here on out to take Heroic, just to lock that in. Also, why are Temporal Wizards all Heroic? That seems an odd consequence for their servitude period.

Valid. I think Temporal Power is the way to go. Gives enough to other casters to have access but doesn't add a whole new list of spells to their repertoire.

Some of the conversation on Hangouts related to whether Temporal should be a third option for powers (regular, mega, an temporal) or an alternate to mega powers (i.e. you can only have Temporal Wizard or Master of Magic magic, not both).

If we go that route, it solves the issue of LLW/Shifters taking the temporal wizard edge, etc.

VV

[Venatus Vinco]

1: I'm assuming by "disorienting trick" you mean, "Trick Maneuver that scores a Raise"? It should be called out as such, if that's what you're going for.

Good point, thanks.

2: Is the PPE spent before or after the Trick is rolled for?

Good question, before seems best. Kind of like the way Major psionic works.

3: Is there any cap on how far this can go? Can you kill someone by Tricking them repeatedly?

Good question, probably not but incapacitate.

4: This ability is dramatically more useful than the free pseudo-Martial Artist* that comes with Adept. As in, I would buy it, without the Power Trapping aspect, for my trick-fighting character in a heartbeat if it was generally available. Hell, I'd pester Corrigan to let me see if I could tweak my existing character to retcon it in. It's THAT good--which makes me very leery of it being just the 'icing' on the core function of the Edge.

Given this and all the questions above, what would you propose as an alternative? Perhaps just a bonus to agility or smarts tricks? Nothing?

VV

[Freemage]

Two possibilities occur to me:

1: You can now use Tricky Fighter with both Smarts and Agility tricks (essentially, it gives you the second use of the Edge, but in the field you're probably not as talented in--most folks build to either Smarts or Agility and stick with that--so you either make a more balanced build, or you take a less-than-optimal secondary Edge, which is right where I put Martial Artist); or,

2: You may now use Tricky Fighter twice in one round, so long as the second use is tied to a second Fighting roll. This one's a bit more generally useful, but it still requires you to build to one of the various "I make multiple attacks in one round" builds--if you don't, then "Trick-Fight, Trick-Fight" still is a -2 MAP for you, possibly with a -2 off-hand penalty on the second Fighting roll, anyway.

I think either of these is a better fit, while still emphasizing the idea of, "Fights really nasty."

[Venatus Vinco]

Both look good,

I guess doubling up the edge (even if it is less effective) fits the adept edge we're building off of better.

We can definitely work with both suggestions and see where they take us though.

VV

[Ndreare]

I would suggest a character can either have temporal wizard or master of magic but not both. Then they can have an edge that each time selected allows them to take a single spell that is Mega or temporal as long as they have the prerequisite power. This would allow the non tempor wizard to learn a Temporal spell and this would allow The Temporal wizard to learn a mega spell.

This would also remove my concern of stacking up the Temporal version of Armor.

[Freemage]

This would also remove my concern of stacking up the Temporal version of Armor.

Just to address this for a moment--barring the right use of Trappings, different castings of Armor don't stack; the one exception is where one Trapping uses a physical component--in which case, it won't stack with worn/natural Body Armor. As written, Phase Field would absolutely not stack with any of the more common Armor variants.

That said, the other part of the post has some appeal. Lemme write it up formally:

Temporal Wizard [Iconic]
Requirements: ARES or MARS, Arcane Background (Magic), Smarts d8+, Spellcasting d10+, Knowledge (Arcana) d8+, Cannot have (or take) Master of Magic
You have learned the secret art of Temporal Magic. This special training grants spellcasters exceptional might and capability in bending time and space. A Temporal Wizard gains the Temporal Power option for each power he knows upon taking this Edge. Each time he takes the New Power Edge, he gains both the power and its Temporal Power use as well. This stacks with Master of Magic. Temporal wizards can take the following Ley Line Walker and Shifter abilities as advances:

• (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Magic Mastery, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Sense, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Transmission, (Ley Line Walker) Expanded Awareness, (Shifter) Dimension Sense, (Shifter) Rift Mastery

Cross-Training [Power]
Requirements: Either Master of Magic or Temporal Wizard, Arcane Background (Magic), Smarts d8+, Spellcasting Skill d10+, Knowledge (Arcana) d8+
Originally trained in either the raw power of the Masters, or in the twisted arts of the Temporal Wizard, you've now managed to access both. Whenever you take the New Power Edge, you may take either (but not both) the Mega Power or Temporal Power version of that Power.

*******

As an aside, while writing those, I altered "Arcane Skill" to read "Spellcasting", since they're all written specifically for AB: Magic. It makes it clear you can't get there via Techno-Wizardry, despite the fact that Dr. Who very clearly is a TW.

[Venatus Vinco]

This is a very elegant solution thank you.

Well, as an NPC, the Doctor can break the conventions...also the cross training edge wold give a TW some temporal power access.

One other thing this submission needs is a Savage Foes section: anyone want to try creating a temporal raider Savage Foe style?

VV

[Ndreare]

Temporal Wizard [Iconic]
Requirements: ARES or MARS, Arcane Background (Magic), Smarts d8+, Spellcasting d10+, Knowledge (Arcana) d8+, Cannot have (or take) Master of Magic
You have learned the secret art of Temporal Magic. This special training grants spellcasters exceptional might and capability in bending time and space. A Temporal Wizard gains the Temporal Power option for each power he knows upon taking this Edge. Each time he takes the New Power Edge, he gains both the power and its Temporal Power use as well. This stacks with Master of Magic. Temporal wizards can take the following Ley Line Walker and Shifter abilities as advances:

• (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Magic Mastery, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Sense, (Ley Line Walker) Ley Line Transmission, (Ley Line Walker) Expanded Awareness, (Shifter) Dimension Sense, (Shifter) Rift Mastery

Yes but the red text needs edited to say: "This edge prohibits selecting Master of Magic."

[Freemage]

RFT is correct; I'd need to tweak that.

VV: Cross-training would only let TWs use it if the pre-reqs are modded to include AB: Weird Science. If we go that route, would we also want to include the other PPE-using ABs (Mysticism/Miracles, Superpowers)?

[Venatus Vinco]

VV: Cross-training would only let TWs use it if the pre-reqs are modded to include AB: Weird Science. If we go that route, would we also want to include the other PPE-using ABs (Mysticism/Miracles, Superpowers)?

Not I don't want to go that route...but couldn't a TW build the cross-training edge into an item?

One piece of feedback from the hangout was dealing with TW and Temporal Magic.

VV

[Freemage]

VV: Cross-training would only let TWs use it if the pre-reqs are modded to include AB: Weird Science. If we go that route, would we also want to include the other PPE-using ABs (Mysticism/Miracles, Superpowers)?

Not I don't want to go that route...but couldn't a TW build the cross-training edge into an item?

One piece of feedback from the hangout was dealing with TW and Temporal Magic.

VV

Ah! yes, I see the route you lay out, now. So add the Cross-Training Edge (which, BTW, should probably be Seasoned or Veteran, now that I think about such things), then add a Power that can use the Trapping? Since Edges are basically only 'in use' when you're using the item, I'd limit it to the powers on the gear, not any other devices or powers the wielder possesses. And in this sense, it would be just as useful to psychics--get the item, use ISP to power it up and to use the embedded powers, get the trapping.

Of course, the Cross-Training Edge on the item won't work unless you've also got... wait.

Okay, so let's say I've got a LLW with Master of Magic. He picks up a TW device that has Cross-Training and the Armor Power. Are we right back to the character who can use both the Mega-version and the Temporal version of the Armor power? I'm not necessarily opposed to that (since it's a fairly niche case), but it's worth thinking on.

[Radecliffe]

VV and I were discussing a tangent on the hangout for a new edge. Basically it would be an Arcane Specialization for AB users that don't need the full Master treatment and tend to specialize with handful of powers. This edge would allow them to take the mega version of a power they know once per rank similar to the ability granted by the Temporal Warrior edge.

[Ndreare]

VV and I were discussing a tangent on the hangout for a new edge. Basically it would be an Arcane Specialization for AB users that don't need the full Master treatment and tend to specialize with handful of powers. This edge would allow them to take the mega version of a power they know once per rank similar to the ability granted by the Temporal Warrior edge.

This could be workable by eliminating most prerequisites to compensate for not gaining the full benefits of Master of Magic or Temporal Wizard.

Curious what you guys come up with.

[Lucius Draper]

On the Adept comparison, as far as I know the Edge no longer includes the Martial Arts bonus of d4 unarmed (though the table in the end of the section still includes it). Adept requires Martial Arts and lets you spend 1 PP for a round of AP 2 on Unarmed. As someone who just made an unarmed character it's a tough route. Be nice if Adept added another d4, but that's a different tangent.

I'm not wholly opposed to gaining Mega and Temperal versions. Versatility is powerful, but it's not power. Maybe Cross Training reqs are the same or more intense than Master of Magic (Smarts d10 and Spellcasting d12, Connection: Master of Magic or Temporal Wizard, One other weak end concept tax Edge, Veteran? etc) so that IFs who get it free ignoring prerequisites (LLW, Shifter) still have to work quite a bit for it.

Then, new powers get both and when purchased plus each rank after you can add the second version to your existing spells?

This allows someone who wants to "dual class" to do it with significant investment but people who just want to dabble can take the significantly easier to obtain Temporal Power Edge.

[Pender Lumkiss]

What only restricted to MARS or ARES? Common man how much EP to get my mystic to have T-Power? I got this time dragon just waiting to be born. What about my Leyline Wizard? He wants some T-love!

Do we really hate shifters that much?


My point, the dial on SW has been cranked up to 11 or 12 depending on who you ask. Then the dial was ripped off. Let T-Power flow, just let it flow.

Look we can have your master of magic, your master of time and space, your t-warrior, and your could not quite make it to master of magic. Let those be the requirments to get to mega or t-power trappings. Restricting it? This is savage worlds man.

[High Command]

Mystics and Dragons get two ABs, they can go revel in that. Temporal Magic requires sacrifice

[Ndreare]

Where are we at with this one?
How far along and how close to a final write up presented.

PS: @ Pender, of course there is nothing that can stop us from simply making a power "Temporal" by using the core trappings/mechanics instead of the fancy dancy new ones. We only need edges for the new spiffy ones.

[Venatus Vinco]

Where are we at with this one?
How far along and how close to a final write up presented.

PS: @ Pender, of course there is nothing that can stop us from simply making a power "Temporal" by using the core trappings/mechanics instead of the fancy dancy new ones. We only need edges for the new spiffy ones.

Not sure, the feedback was good but I kind of lost steam on the project. Seems like overkill.

What is the next step?

VV

[Ndreare]

A new post with the finished project linked to this thread.
This thread gets locked and Sink it.
Then you are not sifting through tons of feedback.

That is how we do it at work. Each time the previous goes into archive. Prevents rework. Once happy simply say "vote yeh or neh, no other feed back accepted.

[Hans Greuber]

PS: @ Pender, of course there is nothing that can stop us from simply making a power "Temporal" by using the core trappings/mechanics instead of the fancy dancy new ones. We only need edges for the new spiffy ones.

I have already done Trappings like that for Hans, my TW

[Ndreare]

Also how we have built a couple different Temporal Wizards for our home games.

Here is one Dollar made but never played it finished fleshing out.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fov ... p=drivesdk

[Ndreare]

Here is the same character after the player finished him.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GOu ... p=drivesdk