Multi-Group Epics

[Bane]

Is there any interest in having multi-group epic adventures where at least three groups are involved in the same adventures(similar to what Augur is doing in EU)?

[Pender Lumkiss]

Is there any interest in having multi-group epic adventures where at least three groups are involved in the same adventures(similar to what Augur is doing in EU)?

Lars and Pender are bringing the 13th and Black Company closer and closer... Only two groups, but I hope it has felt epic.

[Hans Greuber]

More like the Sword of Damocles...

[Tribe of One]

Yeah, that's more of a two groups enter, one group leaves kind of thing.

To be honest, I'm fine with some common themes and events, but I don't really care to interact directly with other groups, if nothing else because 1) We'll try to kill each other, and someone will get miffed whether that works or if they're prevented; and 2) Eight players per group can be ungainly enough, waiting on 16 or 24 would be impossible.

[Radecliffe]

Yeah, that's more of a two groups enter, one group leaves kind of thing.

To be honest, I'm fine with some common themes and events, but I don't really care to interact directly with other groups, if nothing else because 1) We'll try to kill each other, and someone will get miffed whether that works or if they're prevented; and 2) Eight players per group can be ungainly enough, waiting on 16 or 24 would be impossible.

[Daniel]

See the Outskirts Mini Adventure 20 plus people in a massive fight....
Do a lot of Quick Combat.



There are ways to do it. If groups wanted to form up / team up why not. But it would be a lot of work on GM(s) parts.

Ultimately, sure why not if GMs are up to it. End result is Fun? then do it.

[Maximilian]

Yeah, that's more of a two groups enter, one group leaves kind of thing.

Yep. The Black Company is a smear on the battlefield. They just don't know it yet.
I voted yes, because sure, why not? However, it would take some heavy coordination and a lot of quick combat, like Lars said. I think you'd have to impose a post schedule similar to what Tribe does in New West. GM posts are on X and Y days regardless of who has posted, or else you end up waiting forever for people who aren't as johnny on the spot as others.
It's also difficult to give 16-24 people a chance to shine if it's not a pure combat situation. The other way to pull it off would be each group tackles a particular end of an assignment with a common goal. Infiltrating a top secret coalition installation? One group secures the gate, one sets boobytraps on the motor pool, last group breaches the lab and steals the stuff and/or bombs the storage room with the anti-d-bee chemical.
Also, just gave myself an adventure seed for my home game, if I ever get back to it.

[Jude Maverick]

Yeah, that's more of a two groups enter, one group leaves kind of thing.

Yep. The Black Company is a smear on the battlefield. They just don't know it yet.
I voted yes, because sure, why not? However, it would take some heavy coordination and a lot of quick combat, like Lars said. I think you'd have to impose a post schedule similar to what Tribe does in New West. GM posts are on X and Y days regardless of who has posted, or else you end up waiting forever for people who aren't as johnny on the spot as others.
It's also difficult to give 16-24 people a chance to shine if it's not a pure combat situation. The other way to pull it off would be each group tackles a particular end of an assignment with a common goal. Infiltrating a top secret coalition installation? One group secures the gate, one sets boobytraps on the motor pool, last group breaches the lab and steals the stuff and/or bombs the storage room with the anti-d-bee chemical.
Also, just gave myself an adventure seed for my home game, if I ever get back to it.

That's essentially how they run multi-table epics for D&D at cons. While I've never done an epic, I did do the D&D Next playtest multi-table event Vault of the Dracolich. Everyone came in a different entrance, each table had a leader with a "Helm of Telepathy" and could contact another table leader to pass information or ask for help, and in the final battle every table had a different job. One group (mine) had to keep the dracolich occupied. Another was fighting off the zombie hordes. The third table was figuring out the puzzle statues to shut down the magical protections. It was pretty fun, but there was little overall interaction between the groups.

[Jude Maverick]

How does it work in EU? (Since I'm not over there).

[Corrigon]

People from different groups and games brought together

[Venatus Vinco]

Jude:

On EU they have done epics a variety of ways. This most recent one I think they took players from various groups and mixed them together into a different configuration. Each group then worked on a part of a plot line. It was also an "out of time" experience so they weren't pulled from their regular game but it happened in a dream or whatever (but the players still got xp). High Command GM's one of those groups, he might be able to comment further.

Other times, it's been cross over for a short window like the defense of MercTown. Where all groups were working to fight off a demon invasion. Or, as mentioned above groups all working toward the same objective but different parts.

In all but a few cases they maintained the group size of 8 players or less.

One, non-epic case was a group vs. group scenario that saw one group hired to hunt another then both ending up having to work togeter. It was, I think, fun for the players but mired in some of the issues identified above.

VV

[Jude Maverick]

Ah, okay. Sounds kind of cool, especially if it doesn't mess with existing groups too much. I like the idea of the small 8 man group from mixed SETS in "fluid" time (though dream time might be a bit of a letdown).

[Pender Lumkiss]

Yeah, that's more of a two groups enter, one group leaves kind of thing.

To be honest, I'm fine with some common themes and events, but I don't really care to interact directly with other groups, if nothing else because 1) We'll try to kill each other, and someone will get miffed whether that works or if they're prevented; and 2) Eight players per group can be ungainly enough, waiting on 16 or 24 would be impossible.

I do think Tribe hits a couple of notes. Even with quick combat I would imagine it would be laborious to resolve that many actions. To some of Tribe's points while the 13th is chasing down the BC, I like to think it has been a relatively slow burn with them discovering more about the BC and the situation/power struggle within the city of gloom. When and if the two groups meet it will most likely be resolved in a quick combat.
But having 3-4 objectives of a larger story and or plot point campaign and having the successes and failures directly impact what each group is trying to accomplish would be something fairly easy to do. I am really in favor of a reactionary world for the PCs to play in and would be up to to do this with the 13th(probably could starting next quad). For any players in vampire kingdoms I would rather not do it with that group because you are already in an epic shitstorm.
Oh I did also want to mention it works pretty nicely if the GM's are in each other's games. It makes it so they know where the two groups are and what is going on on each adventure thread.

[Tribe of One]

Let me start by saying I've enjoyed the 13th/Black Company crossover so far, and I trust Pender and Lars to handle it well as we go forward.

But I really hope we're not given an opportunity to actually fight each other, and certainly not with a quick combat. Here's why:

* Although it's been pretty well-telegraphed on a meta level that the BC's treachery was a frame job, and we're supposed to figure that out before we actually come to blows, I don't think it's that clear in-game yet, and there's a distinct possibility we'll enter combat with our characters thinking they're legitimately the evil-doers we've been led to believe. At that point, introducing some artificial barrier to actually having it out would feel, well, artificial. If the 13th is not going to blow them to smithereens (which, as we all know, is a foregone conclusion if it comes to that ) then the knowledge that they were framed needs to be made indisputably clear before we they get within range of our rail guns.

* A quick combat would leave everyone feeling cheated. How much of a bonus will the dominant group (the 13th) get on quick combat rolls to simulate their superiority? Imagine you're one of the losers (BC), and you get whacked as the result of a bad dice roll. Or worse, you're on the winning side and get a bad roll, without ever getting to put into play all of your resources? How is success interpreted? Anything less than the total annihilation of the BC is going to appear unfair from the 13th's perspective, considering the heavy ordinance and sheer bad-assery on our side of the table (I kid, sort of, but also not really.) If you're going to do actual PvP, I think you need to give everyone a chance to put all their cards on the table, so to speak, or there will inevitably be hard feelings.

* Now, imagine any of the above scenarios with players less awesome/understanding/collaborative than ours.

So, yeah, while I like the idea of various groups' actions impacting a shared adventure environment -- even to the point of one group's successes or failures making things more difficult for another group -- I think direct confrontations between groups should be avoided, outside of some sort of Fight Club environment where everyone is aware of and agrees with those stipulations beforehand.

[High Command]

there's been a few Epics on EU.

One, hardly anyone playing remembers. It went poorly and that was that. Augur can reply, but safe say reshuffling teams without regard doesn't work.
The second was bit more of a shared storyline with the two GMs for each shared group working together and running concurrently. We had a full scale demon invasion of Merctown and we had people defending the gates and hitting enemies in the outer areas, etc. One particularly cool moment had a CS soldier in a Glitter Boy Killer working side by side with a Glitter Boy. It also happened both were good ole boy hicks. Good times. Oh yeah, then Tiree gave them coffee from a little girl that had the egg of an alien intelligence in it that would have grown into a full on minion. The CS soldier saved, but still has to deal with the fact he now is psychically active and the egg casing is fused with hiso spine; The glitter boy pilot is Cory's player. So I'll let you ask him.

This Epic we did an EP buy in. Buy in, get a return on investment if you stick with it and survive (we're pulling no punches), but the way you get pulled is timey-wimey. My group all walked through a door (any door, doesn't matter) and walked through in their normal continuity. But in the split moment that becomes its own timeline, they walked into an english manner in a pocket dimension and were told the Book of Heroes (Rifts Artifact that is way cooler sounding than it is) chose them to save reality from the Mechanoids. My group hasn't figured out their end goal (but are running around Bath England) and have fought some deevils. There's a powerful group that has fought mechanoids and is about to raid a place where a death goddess is having a non-humanoid body made for her so she can get the humanoid hating mechanoids as her own personal minions. They are also currently in Bath, by way of Asgard. One group is working on infiltrating the mechanoid mother ship (Augur's Group). And one is working out its next step (Hobo Joe's group).

As for a multi-group epic here, I'd suggest rather a shared storyline where multiple groups work towards mutual goals at the same time. Someone would have to work out the ultimate planning and handing out of tasks (given how much we GMs are cross pollinated across the groups).

[Bane]

Also, none of the GM's and AGM's (Assistant GM's) were allowed to join the current epic on EU because the plot lines were getting talked about in GM threads.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Let me start by saying I've enjoyed the 13th/Black Company crossover so far, and I trust Pender and Lars to handle it well as we go forward.

But I really hope we're not given an opportunity to actually fight each other, and certainly not with a quick combat. Here's why:

* Although it's been pretty well-telegraphed on a meta level that the BC's treachery was a frame job, and we're supposed to figure that out before we actually come to blows, I don't think it's that clear in-game yet, and there's a distinct possibility we'll enter combat with our characters thinking they're legitimately the evil-doers we've been led to believe. At that point, introducing some artificial barrier to actually having it out would feel, well, artificial. If the 13th is not going to blow them to smithereens (which, as we all know, is a foregone conclusion if it comes to that ) then the knowledge that they were framed needs to be made indisputably clear before we they get within range of our rail guns.

* A quick combat would leave everyone feeling cheated. How much of a bonus will the dominant group (the 13th) get on quick combat rolls to simulate their superiority? Imagine you're one of the losers (BC), and you get whacked as the result of a bad dice roll. Or worse, you're on the winning side and get a bad roll, without ever getting to put into play all of your resources? How is success interpreted? Anything less than the total annihilation of the BC is going to appear unfair from the 13th's perspective, considering the heavy ordinance and sheer bad-assery on our side of the table (I kid, sort of, but also not really.) If you're going to do actual PvP, I think you need to give everyone a chance to put all their cards on the table, so to speak, or there will inevitably be hard feelings.

* Now, imagine any of the above scenarios with players less awesome/understanding/collaborative than ours.

So, yeah, while I like the idea of various groups' actions impacting a shared adventure environment -- even to the point of one group's successes or failures making things more difficult for another group -- I think direct confrontations between groups should be avoided, outside of some sort of Fight Club environment where everyone is aware of and agrees with those stipulations beforehand.

That's a lot of great feedback and I will work with Dan to see if we can come to another resolution that does not involve you feeling cheated.

[High Command]

Also, none of the GM's and AGM's (Assistant GM's) were allowed to join the current epic on EU because the plot lines were getting talked about in GM threads.

Actually several GMs and AGMs did. We actually have separate forum and chats.

[Maximilian]

That's a lot of great feedback and I will work with Dan to see if we can come to another resolution that does not involve you feeling cheated.

Makes me wonder what was planned originally, and if you're actually going to alter the endgame or you're just being Pender and poking at us.

[Tribe of One]

That's a lot of great feedback and I will work with Dan to see if we can come to another resolution that does not involve you feeling cheated.

Makes me wonder what was planned originally, and if you're actually going to alter the endgame or you're just being Pender and poking at us.

You know he just takes whatever we say and uses it against us. I had to be extra careful to not mention cheerleaders, or sex-crazed android groupies, or earthbound mutant valkyries... Oh, wait. Damn it.

[Bane]

Also, none of the GM's and AGM's (Assistant GM's) were allowed to join the current epic on EU because the plot lines were getting talked about in GM threads.

Actually several GMs and AGMs did. We actually have separate forum and chats.

I could have swore that had been the case...

[Daniel]

Working as multiple teams on same side = combat against different objectives, regular or Quick = great.

Going against each other like the BC and 13th will be doing = guess we will see how it goes when it happens.

I for one will make sure that the battle ground is on the East Texas University ground....

[Ndreare]

I would love to play in a multi game played well.

But I have not idea how to do it in practice as a GM.