Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
The powers part is a bit unclear. Can you please clarify:
Is it 5 ppe per power that automatically gets imbued? Like if I take 3 powers Each power receives +5 ppe that can be used only on that power?
Or does it only receive 5 ppe no matter the number of powers?
Is it 5 ppe per power that automatically gets imbued? Like if I take 3 powers Each power receives +5 ppe that can be used only on that power?
Or does it only receive 5 ppe no matter the number of powers?
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
It's the first. Note the use of "a" and "the" - - each Power added gets 5 PPE, which is restricted for use powering that Power.Pender Lumkiss wrote:The powers part is a bit unclear. Can you please clarify:
Is it 5 ppe per power that automatically gets imbued? Like if I take 3 powers Each power receives +5 ppe that can be used only on that power?
Or does it only receive 5 ppe no matter the number of powers?
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
When it came up, I read this stupid thing three times and still did not see it. Now it is bolded and I do not know how I missed it.Tribe of One wrote:It's the first. Note the use of "a" and "the" - - each Power added gets 5 PPE, which is restricted for use powering that Power.Pender Lumkiss wrote:The powers part is a bit unclear. Can you please clarify:
Is it 5 ppe per power that automatically gets imbued? Like if I take 3 powers Each power receives +5 ppe that can be used only on that power?
Or does it only receive 5 ppe no matter the number of powers?
Thanks, this will make Matthew happy I am sure.
, and of course update your signatures!
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
As the guy who grudgingly put in there, I thought it should be 5 period, with more coming from the features. I intentionally didn't put it in there, as I feel you should be paying mod slots for it. But that's why they are community rules and not Patrick's rules. I still think a more conservative you get 5 PPE if you have powers should be used. That was always my intent in any case. Obviously the reality is not reflective of that. Adding a power is basically adding the new power edge and that does NOT come with 5 PP. But short of a ruling to the contrary from VV, how it reads now is how it's done. So 5 PP per power chosen.Tribe of One wrote:It's the first. Note the use of "a" and "the" - - each Power added gets 5 PPE, which is restricted for use powering that Power.Pender Lumkiss wrote:The powers part is a bit unclear. Can you please clarify:
Is it 5 ppe per power that automatically gets imbued? Like if I take 3 powers Each power receives +5 ppe that can be used only on that power?
Or does it only receive 5 ppe no matter the number of powers?
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
so what each power can only access its own 5 PPE? Lets just leave it 5 PPE period and folks can use mods to increase the ppts. I am not on board with each power getting the new power edge. Thanks.High Command wrote:As the guy who grudgingly put in there, I thought it should be 5 period, with more coming from the features. I intentionally didn't put it in there, as I feel you should be paying mod slots for it. But that's why they are community rules and not Patrick's rules. I still think a more conservative you get 5 PPE if you have powers should be used. That was always my intent in any case. Obviously the reality is not reflective of that. Adding a power is basically adding the new power edge and that does NOT come with 5 PP. But short of a ruling to the contrary from VV, how it reads now is how it's done. So 5 PP per power chosen.Tribe of One wrote:It's the first. Note the use of "a" and "the" - - each Power added gets 5 PPE, which is restricted for use powering that Power.Pender Lumkiss wrote:The powers part is a bit unclear. Can you please clarify:
Is it 5 ppe per power that automatically gets imbued? Like if I take 3 powers Each power receives +5 ppe that can be used only on that power?
Or does it only receive 5 ppe no matter the number of powers?
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
Well, the rules as written and approved are that each power comes with 5 PP to activate it, the idea being that a Major upgrade gets you the ability to use a power roughly once before needing to recharge. Take that away and subsequent Major Upgrades aren't worth as much, as they just give versatility without actual uses.
All of which just screws over non-ABs -- who are supposed to be the ones benefiting from these items! Jesus, how many times do we have to have the same conversation. A non-caster already has to give up two Major Upgrades to get an item they can use, compared to a caster with a TW item. Now you want them to have to burn additional Major Upgrades just to be able to use the powers they purchase?
That's capital H, capital O horseshit. It would also require a change to the rules already approved here, which means a vote.
All of which just screws over non-ABs -- who are supposed to be the ones benefiting from these items! Jesus, how many times do we have to have the same conversation. A non-caster already has to give up two Major Upgrades to get an item they can use, compared to a caster with a TW item. Now you want them to have to burn additional Major Upgrades just to be able to use the powers they purchase?
That's capital H, capital O horseshit. It would also require a change to the rules already approved here, which means a vote.
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
I have chosen Enchanted (Non TW) items for 2 of 3 of my signature items for my characters, just because I think they match the flavor for the character or the type of item better than a TW item would. In fact, if both Major slots are used for Edges, an Enchanted Item is easily a more powerful choice than a TW item.
Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
Okay, to run through the balancing factors, again:
TW Items:
Can be used by anyone with an AB, but not by anyone without one.
Require PPTs to activate, even for non-Power-based functions.
Have the largest number of Major Slots.
Enchanted Items:
Can be used by anyone at all.
Are more limited in activating Powers, since they have a limit of 5 PPE/power (and each Power uses a separate pool).
Are more effective in using non-Power-based functions (especially Edges, but also stat bonuses), since those are 'always on'.
TW Items:
Can be used by anyone with an AB, but not by anyone without one.
Require PPTs to activate, even for non-Power-based functions.
Have the largest number of Major Slots.
Enchanted Items:
Can be used by anyone at all.
Are more limited in activating Powers, since they have a limit of 5 PPE/power (and each Power uses a separate pool).
Are more effective in using non-Power-based functions (especially Edges, but also stat bonuses), since those are 'always on'.
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
And Super-Tech just gets hosed, since it has as few slots as Enchanted, doesn't count as magic for dealing with immunities, suffers from Technical Difficulties and can't have Powers at all, currently.Freemage wrote:Okay, to run through the balancing factors, again:
TW Items:
Can be used by anyone with an AB, but not by anyone without one.
Require PPTs to activate, even for non-Power-based functions.
Have the largest number of Major Slots.
Enchanted Items:
Can be used by anyone at all.
Are more limited in activating Powers, since they have a limit of 5 PPE/power (and each Power uses a separate pool).
Are more effective in using non-Power-based functions (especially Edges, but also stat bonuses), since those are 'always on'.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Regarding the 5 PPE for powers in enchanted items, this comes from the Fantasy Companion and Shaintair. EDIT: Where a magic item usually only has one power or benefit, not 4-6.
Regarding super-tech getting "hosed" perhaps we just need to accept that Rifts does not have a technological parallel to powers. You want a device that emulates powers, get an AB. The end. We can rage about the unfairness, perceived slight, or glaring system flaw on the PEG forums if we want but to date we have been unable to find an acceptable compromise here and I do not want to go through the gauntlet of what is required to try and hash it out.
VV
Regarding super-tech getting "hosed" perhaps we just need to accept that Rifts does not have a technological parallel to powers. You want a device that emulates powers, get an AB. The end. We can rage about the unfairness, perceived slight, or glaring system flaw on the PEG forums if we want but to date we have been unable to find an acceptable compromise here and I do not want to go through the gauntlet of what is required to try and hash it out.
VV
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Re: Enchanted Item Creation Rules (Non-TW)
Actually that clarification was edited in by someone( very recently), to me the original language up to a couple days ago seemed to be 5ppe if you add a power to the item. Which is why I was asking for clarification. If the clarification is going to be every power added to the item gives each power its own 5 ppe pool, how does major mods and minor mods affect each individual power pool of 5 ppe. If its going to be 5 ppe per power but only usable for that power, that seems like some extra book keeping.Tribe of One wrote:Well, the rules as written and approved are that each power comes with 5 PP to activate it, the idea being that a Major upgrade gets you the ability to use a power roughly once before needing to recharge. Take that away and subsequent Major Upgrades aren't worth as much, as they just give versatility without actual uses.
All of which just screws over non-ABs -- who are supposed to be the ones benefiting from these items! Jesus, how many times do we have to have the same conversation. A non-caster already has to give up two Major Upgrades to get an item they can use, compared to a caster with a TW item. Now you want them to have to burn additional Major Upgrades just to be able to use the powers they purchase?
That's capital H, capital O horseshit. It would also require a change to the rules already approved here, which means a vote.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Yeah I would always make a character with an AB or some kind of ppt pool like the dragon. TW items are just too cool to pass up. Which is fine by me and I really don't see a reason to add house rules to even some kind of playing field. IF you go without an ab, you go in knowing you will not be able to access TW items.Venatus Vinco wrote:Regarding the 5 PPE for powers in enchanted items, this comes from the Fantasy Companion and Shaintair.
Regarding super-tech getting "hosed" perhaps we just need to accept that Rifts does not have a technological parallel to powers. You want a device that emulates powers, get an AB. The end. We can rage about the unfairness, perceived slight, or glaring system flaw on the PEG forums if we want but to date we have been unable to find an acceptable compromise here and I do not want to go through the gauntlet of what is required to try and hash it out.
VV
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
TW items shouldn't be the end all and be all of cool, powerful toys. They certainly aren't in PR, where the best and coolest gear is almost always tech or enchanted/holy/rune weapons. The AB superiority and TW dominance in SR is a system flaw and poor design that doesnt reflect the source material. It absolutely should be corrected.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
I agree. However:Tribe of One wrote:TW items shouldn't be the end all and be all of cool, powerful toys. They certainly aren't in PR, where the best and coolest gear is almost always tech or enchanted/holy/rune weapons. The AB superiority and TW dominance in SR is a system flaw and poor design that doesnt reflect the source material. It absolutely should be corrected.
VVMe wrote:...to date we have been unable to find an acceptable compromise here and I do not want to go through the gauntlet of what is required to try and hash it out.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
I don't think Tech is actually that complicated, but I'm fine with leaving it alone. But we shouldn't be throwing gas on the fire by retroactively making Enchanted Items suck, too.Venatus Vinco wrote:I agree. However:Tribe of One wrote:TW items shouldn't be the end all and be all of cool, powerful toys. They certainly aren't in PR, where the best and coolest gear is almost always tech or enchanted/holy/rune weapons. The AB superiority and TW dominance in SR is a system flaw and poor design that doesnt reflect the source material. It absolutely should be corrected.VVMe wrote:...to date we have been unable to find an acceptable compromise here and I do not want to go through the gauntlet of what is required to try and hash it out.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
No one is suggesting that we make anything suck. I am just trying to figure out how it was supposed tomwork with the free power points. The language now and a few days ago has changed so I am just confused on what it is suppose to be.
Seems there are a few options:
1) 5ppe period no matter how many powers, use mods to increase the ppt pool
2) 5 ppe per power only usable by that power.
I like option 1 and 3, if it is suppose to be option 2, I would go with option 3 as keeping track of idividual power pools sounds tedious and not fun.
VV can you tell me which one it is supposed to be?
Seems there are a few options:
1) 5ppe period no matter how many powers, use mods to increase the ppt pool
2) 5 ppe per power only usable by that power.
- this does not seem to create some kind of pool, so you would have to track ppts seperately per power.
How do the minor and major mods effect this option
I like option 1 and 3, if it is suppose to be option 2, I would go with option 3 as keeping track of idividual power pools sounds tedious and not fun.
VV can you tell me which one it is supposed to be?
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Pender:
I feel like #1 is most reasonable.
VV
I feel like #1 is most reasonable.
VV
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Let's just use #1 but up it to 10 PPE to start.
Simple, fast, effective.
VV
Simple, fast, effective.
VV
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Got it thank you. When you get a chance can you please make the wording in the enchanted item thread reflect this.Venatus Vinco wrote:Let's just use #1 but up it to 10 PPE to start.
Simple, fast, effective.
VV
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
I'm fine with #1 if the base pool is increased to 10 PPE. No one's likely to fit more than two powers on an Enchanted item anyway.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
It was three up until people mess with it and rewrote things. This has a significant effect on people who already bought signature items. Because the rules changed does that mean the previously purchased items get messed with?
I personally think 3 is fine and reasonable I could even go with two. But I don't think one is fair or balanced.
I personally think 3 is fine and reasonable I could even go with two. But I don't think one is fair or balanced.
, and of course update your signatures!
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Well I don't think it was ever 3. I don't have the origional wording, but it was something like adding a power to the item gives it 5 ppe to activate the power. Which to me does not nessesarily mean more powers give more ppe. To me was a power gives 5 ppe, other powers give nothing other than the use of the power. The shintair document VV is working off of certainly makes it seem when adding powers you randomly roll for a ppt pool from which the powers can activate.RFT wrote:It was three up until people mess with it and rewrote things. This has a significant effect on people who already bought signature items. Because the rules changed does that mean the previously purchased items get messed with?
I personally think 3 is fine and reasonable I could even go with two. But I don't think one is fair or balanced.
Also i just looked at the sig items and approved items. I really did not see hardly any enchanted items with more than 1 power, so I think worst case, people will have the option have 5 more ppts in their item.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
I found five Enchanted items in the approved list. All of them had only one power. So I think you're right Pender it won't make a difference
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Signature Enchanted Items only have two major mods, anyway, so it's not going to hurt anyone switching to #1if the base pool is increased to 10.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Ok,cool. Well thanks for comimg with me on this journey. Mostly it was sparked by the legendary items the vampire hunters are receiving, so I think I got all my questions answered. Thanks again.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
I have to admit I always thought it was #3. Ashlyn's shield has 2 powers. I would have to look, but Jude's armor might have 2, as well.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Even at two powers it will not matter.
The new flat 10 PPE would be break even and a boon to others.
The new flat 10 PPE would be break even and a boon to others.
, and of course update your signatures!
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Except for the change in recharge rate for the "free" PPE. I believe it was originally 1 per 30 minutes. It doesn't feel the same either. That's just me being pedantic though. Well enchanted items with edges are still da bomb.RFT wrote:Even at two powers it will not matter.
The new flat 10 PPE would be break even and a boon to others.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
The recharge of 1/hour was standard. The 1/30 minutes was at a ley line.Radecliffe wrote:Except for the change in recharge rate for the "free" PPE. I believe it was originally 1 per 30 minutes. It doesn't feel the same either. That's just me being pedantic though. Well enchanted items with edges are still da bomb.RFT wrote:Even at two powers it will not matter.
The new flat 10 PPE would be break even and a boon to others.
You can reference Echo's signature item as if came up there when talking about powers and I pointed out she should be able to use Conceal Arcana as long as she is conscious because it drains at the same rate as it recharges.
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Re: Enchanted Item / Super Tech Hosing Thread
Yeah I misread that. I saw the part where it said "from major upgrades" and ignored the rest. Still it kind of ruins the one shot per battle I was going for with Sparky's sword so I will come up with some thing else.