Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

OOC commentary and whatever else you want to chime in with.
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Will it affect the immune target? (This is baring an official answer from Clint)

Poll ended at Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:24 am

Yes, of course. The Burster or Dragon would be immune to the fatigue, but not the full effects of the power. The trapping is not that the Flame itself is controlling them.
3
23%
Nope, the burster and dragon are immune to fire/heat trappings. When you take a trapping you gain a benefit, but also a limitation and in this case the consequence is you cannot affect people immune to your trapping.
10
77%
 
Total votes: 13

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Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Ndreare »

I am looking for a group consensus on interpretation. If a dragon or a Burster is attacked with a non-damaging effect trapped as Fire/Heat will they be affected?

Example 1: I put create a Entangle trapped as Flaming chain that gain the Fire Fatigue trapping will it affect the Dragons?

Example 2: I put create a Puppet trapped as overpowering will that gain the Fire Fatigue trapping as it overheats the brain will it affect the Dragons?



Here is the closest answer we have on it from Clint.
http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... ng#p151681
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by High Command »

Example 1: The dragon will be entangled, but not fatigued. The dragon is immune to all heat, so fatigue from heat makes no sense. Not fatigue from ash (as in choking the lungs) would NOT be something the dragon or burster would be immune to.

Example 2: The puppet effect, yes, but not the fatigue. Same reasoning.

Note: Neither of these examples have the effect subsumed in the trapping. In both cases, you have flaming arrows, not arrows of flame. The core exists with the trapping modifier. You CAN write it the other way, but neither of the examples do that. If you did wite in such a way where the effect and trapping are integral, then the dragon would be immune to the effect as well.

Example: Entangle is trapped as superheating the ground and causing it to bubble and stick to the target. The target also takes fatigue from the heat. Because the burster is immune to the heat, and can produce his own at will, he won't get stuck as he can simply ignore the effect (based on actual burning things).
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Tribe of One »

High Command wrote:Example 1: The dragon will be entangled, but not fatigued. The dragon is immune to all heat, so fatigue from heat makes no sense. Not fatigue from ash (as in choking the lungs) would NOT be something the dragon or burster would be immune to.

Example 2: The puppet effect, yes, but not the fatigue. Same reasoning.

Note: Neither of these examples have the effect subsumed in the trapping. In both cases, you have flaming arrows, not arrows of flame. The core exists with the trapping modifier. You CAN write it the other way, but neither of the examples do that. If you did wite in such a way where the effect and trapping are integral, then the dragon would be immune to the effect as well.

Example: Entangle is trapped as superheating the ground and causing it to bubble and stick to the target. The target also takes fatigue from the heat. Because the burster is immune to the heat, and can produce his own at will, he won't get stuck as he can simply ignore the effect (based on actual burning things).
Patrick is correct. Case closed. :lol:
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Ndreare »

I may as well offer up my opinion on this.

Taking a Trapping includes in it inherent gains and losses that are the balances of the mechanic. When you select a trapping you are saying, "these are the special rules for my power" included in that is the loss of certain other aspects of the power.

it is a simple risk reward decision and the opportunity to gain additional mechanics is gained at the risk of losing certain aspects of the power. Rewording it or having a detail trapping description that overrides it does not eliminate that aspect.

I would say the Burster or Dragon is immune to the effect for the same reason the user gains the fatigue trapping on other enemies. They have opted in to the risk reward paradigm and are now on the risk side of the ratio.


PS: Patrick you forgot to vote against me.
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Logan Wright »

If I can offer a third option to the dilemma is that the target of a heat Trapped power that is immune to heat/fire gets a bonus to resist it.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Ndreare »

Logan Wright wrote:If I can offer a third option to the dilemma is that the target of a heat Trapped power that is immune to heat/fire gets a bonus to resist it.
If i was doing it as a normal Game i would do this and rule it provides a +4 bonus.

But in this case, we are doing a Showdown and I want as little personal touch as possible as I want to stay as close to RAW as understood by the site as possible.
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Pursuit »

Re: the flaming arrow vs. the arrow of flame example: one is more appropriately handled by smite (which requires both the expenditure of power points AND the firing of an arrow), while the other is better handled by bolt. For the former, I’d say immunity applies only to the added fire damage from smite. For the latter, I’d say immunity blocks the entirety of the damage.

I wouldn’t allow bolt to be trapped as flaming arrows, but I would let it be trapped as arrows of flame. I think it comes down to the power/trapping combo rather than just the trapping.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Freemage »

Since any Power/Trapping combo can be written in such a way as to make the connection between the two indirect (High Command's "flaming arrows" vs. "arrows of flame" example actually sums it up perfectly for me, interestingly enough), then the effect of the "Immunity doesn't apply" ruling is that limited Immunity is rendered nearly worthless. I know I as a Player would never voluntarily choose the "arrows of flame" option, if the "flaming arrows" option was available as anything other than cosmetic fluff, and at the same cost. And I doubt any of my NPCs would, as a GM, either.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Tribe of One »

Freemage wrote:Since any Power/Trapping combo can be written in such a way as to make the connection between the two indirect (High Command's "flaming arrows" vs. "arrows of flame" example actually sums it up perfectly for me, interestingly enough), then the effect of the "Immunity doesn't apply" ruling is that limited Immunity is rendered nearly worthless. I know I as a Player would never voluntarily choose the "arrows of flame" option, if the "flaming arrows" option was available as anything other than cosmetic fluff, and at the same cost. And I doubt any of my NPCs would, as a GM, either.
So your solution is to disallow all of the cool versions, because they're better than the less creative versions? That seems counter-productive. It also ignores the fact that various other immunities/countermeasures could come into play vs. flaming arrows (immunity to metal, for example) that wouldn't apply to arrows of flame.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by hobo joe »

I think this is all picky bull honky. If it has flame or fire in the trapping something immune to flame or fire is immune. Heat and flame/fire? Different things. You could microwave a dragon and it would explode. FFF.

So heat trapped puppet would fully affect the dragon.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Tribe of One »

Now I wanna microwave a dragon.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Ndreare »

Tribe of One wrote:Now I wanna microwave a dragon.
Off topic: The Mutants in Orbit book for TMNT/Rifts crossovers had Microwave or X-Ray guns that did hundreds to thousands of damage capable of destroying pretty much anything short of a supernatural intelligence in a single hit.
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by KahlessNestor »

Hobo Joe wrote:I think this is all picky bull honky. If it has flame or fire in the trapping something immune to flame or fire is immune. Heat and flame/fire? Different things. You could microwave a dragon and it would explode. FFF.

So heat trapped puppet would fully affect the dragon.
Now that raises another question then. If a Heat trapping is different than Fire, 1) Why are they listed the same, and 2) Is my Burster still susceptible to the heat and humidity of the Dinosaur Swamp where she is currently? We ruled she is immune. Then again, they still take half damage from lasers, which would actually be all heat, anyway, so...

And yes, now I want to microwave a dragon. Like in Gremlins.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by Ndreare »

No, entropy is entropy.
The Burster takes no damage from fire or heat including environmental heat which tends to be much more mild than the bursters heat and half damage from other energy.
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers

Post by hobo joe »

How dare you poke holes in my hasty and snarky argument! At least we all agree on microwaving the dragon. Dragon sized microwave as the next EP reward item?
KahlessNestor wrote:
Hobo Joe wrote:I think this is all picky bull honky. If it has flame or fire in the trapping something immune to flame or fire is immune. Heat and flame/fire? Different things. You could microwave a dragon and it would explode. FFF.

So heat trapped puppet would fully affect the dragon.
Now that raises another question then. If a Heat trapping is different than Fire, 1) Why are they listed the same, and 2) Is my Burster still susceptible to the heat and humidity of the Dinosaur Swamp where she is currently? We ruled she is immune. Then again, they still take half damage from lasers, which would actually be all heat, anyway, so...

And yes, now I want to microwave a dragon. Like in Gremlins.
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