Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
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Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
I am looking for a group consensus on interpretation. If a dragon or a Burster is attacked with a non-damaging effect trapped as Fire/Heat will they be affected?
Example 1: I put create a Entangle trapped as Flaming chain that gain the Fire Fatigue trapping will it affect the Dragons?
Example 2: I put create a Puppet trapped as overpowering will that gain the Fire Fatigue trapping as it overheats the brain will it affect the Dragons?
Here is the closest answer we have on it from Clint.
http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... ng#p151681
Example 1: I put create a Entangle trapped as Flaming chain that gain the Fire Fatigue trapping will it affect the Dragons?
Example 2: I put create a Puppet trapped as overpowering will that gain the Fire Fatigue trapping as it overheats the brain will it affect the Dragons?
Here is the closest answer we have on it from Clint.
http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... ng#p151681
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
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- High Command
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
Example 1: The dragon will be entangled, but not fatigued. The dragon is immune to all heat, so fatigue from heat makes no sense. Not fatigue from ash (as in choking the lungs) would NOT be something the dragon or burster would be immune to.
Example 2: The puppet effect, yes, but not the fatigue. Same reasoning.
Note: Neither of these examples have the effect subsumed in the trapping. In both cases, you have flaming arrows, not arrows of flame. The core exists with the trapping modifier. You CAN write it the other way, but neither of the examples do that. If you did wite in such a way where the effect and trapping are integral, then the dragon would be immune to the effect as well.
Example: Entangle is trapped as superheating the ground and causing it to bubble and stick to the target. The target also takes fatigue from the heat. Because the burster is immune to the heat, and can produce his own at will, he won't get stuck as he can simply ignore the effect (based on actual burning things).
Example 2: The puppet effect, yes, but not the fatigue. Same reasoning.
Note: Neither of these examples have the effect subsumed in the trapping. In both cases, you have flaming arrows, not arrows of flame. The core exists with the trapping modifier. You CAN write it the other way, but neither of the examples do that. If you did wite in such a way where the effect and trapping are integral, then the dragon would be immune to the effect as well.
Example: Entangle is trapped as superheating the ground and causing it to bubble and stick to the target. The target also takes fatigue from the heat. Because the burster is immune to the heat, and can produce his own at will, he won't get stuck as he can simply ignore the effect (based on actual burning things).
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- Tribe of One
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
Patrick is correct. Case closed.High Command wrote:Example 1: The dragon will be entangled, but not fatigued. The dragon is immune to all heat, so fatigue from heat makes no sense. Not fatigue from ash (as in choking the lungs) would NOT be something the dragon or burster would be immune to.
Example 2: The puppet effect, yes, but not the fatigue. Same reasoning.
Note: Neither of these examples have the effect subsumed in the trapping. In both cases, you have flaming arrows, not arrows of flame. The core exists with the trapping modifier. You CAN write it the other way, but neither of the examples do that. If you did wite in such a way where the effect and trapping are integral, then the dragon would be immune to the effect as well.
Example: Entangle is trapped as superheating the ground and causing it to bubble and stick to the target. The target also takes fatigue from the heat. Because the burster is immune to the heat, and can produce his own at will, he won't get stuck as he can simply ignore the effect (based on actual burning things).
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- Ndreare
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
I may as well offer up my opinion on this.
Taking a Trapping includes in it inherent gains and losses that are the balances of the mechanic. When you select a trapping you are saying, "these are the special rules for my power" included in that is the loss of certain other aspects of the power.
it is a simple risk reward decision and the opportunity to gain additional mechanics is gained at the risk of losing certain aspects of the power. Rewording it or having a detail trapping description that overrides it does not eliminate that aspect.
I would say the Burster or Dragon is immune to the effect for the same reason the user gains the fatigue trapping on other enemies. They have opted in to the risk reward paradigm and are now on the risk side of the ratio.
PS: Patrick you forgot to vote against me.
Taking a Trapping includes in it inherent gains and losses that are the balances of the mechanic. When you select a trapping you are saying, "these are the special rules for my power" included in that is the loss of certain other aspects of the power.
it is a simple risk reward decision and the opportunity to gain additional mechanics is gained at the risk of losing certain aspects of the power. Rewording it or having a detail trapping description that overrides it does not eliminate that aspect.
I would say the Burster or Dragon is immune to the effect for the same reason the user gains the fatigue trapping on other enemies. They have opted in to the risk reward paradigm and are now on the risk side of the ratio.
PS: Patrick you forgot to vote against me.
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Rob Towell
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- Logan Wright
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
If I can offer a third option to the dilemma is that the target of a heat Trapped power that is immune to heat/fire gets a bonus to resist it.
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- Ndreare
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
If i was doing it as a normal Game i would do this and rule it provides a +4 bonus.Logan Wright wrote:If I can offer a third option to the dilemma is that the target of a heat Trapped power that is immune to heat/fire gets a bonus to resist it.
But in this case, we are doing a Showdown and I want as little personal touch as possible as I want to stay as close to RAW as understood by the site as possible.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
Re: the flaming arrow vs. the arrow of flame example: one is more appropriately handled by smite (which requires both the expenditure of power points AND the firing of an arrow), while the other is better handled by bolt. For the former, I’d say immunity applies only to the added fire damage from smite. For the latter, I’d say immunity blocks the entirety of the damage.
I wouldn’t allow bolt to be trapped as flaming arrows, but I would let it be trapped as arrows of flame. I think it comes down to the power/trapping combo rather than just the trapping.
I wouldn’t allow bolt to be trapped as flaming arrows, but I would let it be trapped as arrows of flame. I think it comes down to the power/trapping combo rather than just the trapping.
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
Since any Power/Trapping combo can be written in such a way as to make the connection between the two indirect (High Command's "flaming arrows" vs. "arrows of flame" example actually sums it up perfectly for me, interestingly enough), then the effect of the "Immunity doesn't apply" ruling is that limited Immunity is rendered nearly worthless. I know I as a Player would never voluntarily choose the "arrows of flame" option, if the "flaming arrows" option was available as anything other than cosmetic fluff, and at the same cost. And I doubt any of my NPCs would, as a GM, either.
- Tribe of One
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
So your solution is to disallow all of the cool versions, because they're better than the less creative versions? That seems counter-productive. It also ignores the fact that various other immunities/countermeasures could come into play vs. flaming arrows (immunity to metal, for example) that wouldn't apply to arrows of flame.Freemage wrote:Since any Power/Trapping combo can be written in such a way as to make the connection between the two indirect (High Command's "flaming arrows" vs. "arrows of flame" example actually sums it up perfectly for me, interestingly enough), then the effect of the "Immunity doesn't apply" ruling is that limited Immunity is rendered nearly worthless. I know I as a Player would never voluntarily choose the "arrows of flame" option, if the "flaming arrows" option was available as anything other than cosmetic fluff, and at the same cost. And I doubt any of my NPCs would, as a GM, either.
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- hobo joe
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
I think this is all picky bull honky. If it has flame or fire in the trapping something immune to flame or fire is immune. Heat and flame/fire? Different things. You could microwave a dragon and it would explode. FFF.
So heat trapped puppet would fully affect the dragon.
So heat trapped puppet would fully affect the dragon.
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- Ndreare
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
Off topic: The Mutants in Orbit book for TMNT/Rifts crossovers had Microwave or X-Ray guns that did hundreds to thousands of damage capable of destroying pretty much anything short of a supernatural intelligence in a single hit.Tribe of One wrote:Now I wanna microwave a dragon.
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- KahlessNestor
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
Now that raises another question then. If a Heat trapping is different than Fire, 1) Why are they listed the same, and 2) Is my Burster still susceptible to the heat and humidity of the Dinosaur Swamp where she is currently? We ruled she is immune. Then again, they still take half damage from lasers, which would actually be all heat, anyway, so...Hobo Joe wrote:I think this is all picky bull honky. If it has flame or fire in the trapping something immune to flame or fire is immune. Heat and flame/fire? Different things. You could microwave a dragon and it would explode. FFF.
So heat trapped puppet would fully affect the dragon.
And yes, now I want to microwave a dragon. Like in Gremlins.
GM Notes
- Ndreare
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
No, entropy is entropy.
The Burster takes no damage from fire or heat including environmental heat which tends to be much more mild than the bursters heat and half damage from other energy.
The Burster takes no damage from fire or heat including environmental heat which tends to be much more mild than the bursters heat and half damage from other energy.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
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- hobo joe
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Re: Immunity and Non-Damaging Powers
How dare you poke holes in my hasty and snarky argument! At least we all agree on microwaving the dragon. Dragon sized microwave as the next EP reward item?
KahlessNestor wrote:Now that raises another question then. If a Heat trapping is different than Fire, 1) Why are they listed the same, and 2) Is my Burster still susceptible to the heat and humidity of the Dinosaur Swamp where she is currently? We ruled she is immune. Then again, they still take half damage from lasers, which would actually be all heat, anyway, so...Hobo Joe wrote:I think this is all picky bull honky. If it has flame or fire in the trapping something immune to flame or fire is immune. Heat and flame/fire? Different things. You could microwave a dragon and it would explode. FFF.
So heat trapped puppet would fully affect the dragon.
And yes, now I want to microwave a dragon. Like in Gremlins.