Savage Rifts Summon Ally

Post by **High Command** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:57 pm

So this has now become a quest to provide plausible summons for characters and GMs beyond just what is available on the Summon Ally Power Chart.

Novice
Angelic Foot Soldier (Novice; 3 P.P.E.)
These minor winged spirits of light serve the Angels and Spirits of Light as their foot soldiers.
Attributes: Agility d6, Smarts d6, Spirit d6, Strength d8, Vigor d8
Skills: Fighting d8, Notice d8, Shooting d8, Stealth d6, Survival d4
Pace: 6 and Fly 6, Climb 0; Parry: 5; Toughness: 12 (5)
Gear: Holy Breastplate ( 5 armor, 1 toughness), Holy Longbow (Range 15/30/60, Damage 2d6, RoF 1, AP 2, Holy Damage Trapping), Holy Longsword (Str+d8, AP 2, Mega Damage, Holy Damage Trapping)
Special Abilities/Edges:

Champion: Angelic Foot Soldiers add +2 damage when attacking supernaturally evil creatures, and have +2 Toughness when suffering damage from supernaturally evil sources, including arcane powers and the weapons, claws, teeth, etc., of such creatures
Winged Flight: Fly pace of 6, with a climb of 0.

Mindless Minion

Eye Killer (CB 1, p. 131-2), Owl-Things (CB1, p. 150-1), Scorpion Devil (CB1 p. 156-7), Nipper (Worms of Taut; CB 1 p. 164), Tomb Worms (Worms of Taut, CB 1 p. 166), Tectonic Entities Physical Form

These followers take many forms, but low intellect and ferocity are common to all.
Attributes: Agility d6, Smarts d4 (A), Spirit d6, Strength d10, Vigor d10
Skills: Climbing d4, Fighting d8, Notice d6, Shooting d6, Stealth d6
Pace: 8; Parry: 6; Toughness: 9 (2)
Natural melee weapon (Str+d6)
Natural ranged weapon (Range 12/24/48, Damage 2d8).

Eye Killer

Owl-Thing

Scorpion Devil

Taut Nipper

Taut Tomb Worm

Tectonic Entity

Seasoned

Veteran

Heroic

Legendary

Post by **Freemage** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:49 pm

I'm curious how you got the list together; I'm also a bit confused about the "Force Multiplication" entries, since that's not how the spell usually works (it just gives you more of what you'd get, anyway).

Post by **High Command** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:23 pm

Came from the PEG boards. Beyond that, I'm not sure. That's why I asked for someone to figure out the Combat Rating of each one, so we can do our own analysis

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:51 pm

I will build up a comprehensive list that includes all the encounters from SFoNA and two different Combat Ratings along with the amount of advances required for a PC to become the given being. I am on vacation next week so it should be done before I go back to work as most of it is just simple database entry stuff. I also plan to add a color flag for summons a GM should watch out for such as ones that include instant out powers like puppet.

The two combat ratings I plan to include will be the default one from Savage Rifts (Damage/2)+(Toughness)+(1 per combat edge) and my own which adds Skill level and diversity of attack options in basically (Highest Combat Skill/2+Maximum Damage/2)*Attacks per Round+(Toughness-Armor/4)+(1 per combat or power edge).

Once I am done, I will post the export for feedback before I finish by adding Savage Worlds Deluxe and other books.

Post by **Freemage** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:34 pm

One thing that jumped out at me on this list is thornhead being the same as a brodkil. I have run both in combat and master of magic grossly enhances the play power on the thornhead.

Post by **High Command** » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:38 pm

well once we have CRs, it'll be easier to adjust this list to something we can use.

Post by **Freemage** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:56 am

High Command wrote:well once we have CRs, it'll be easier to adjust this list to something we can use.

Fair enough--though looking at the 'base' formula Kid just posted, I think I see why the list's original creator came up with what he did (the base formula massively undervalues arcane abilities).

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:30 am

Freemage wrote:
High Command wrote:well once we have CRs, it'll be easier to adjust this list to something we can use.
Fair enough--though looking at the 'base' formula Kid just posted, I think I see why the list's original creator came up with what he did (the base formula massively undervalues arcane abilities).

I agree, but would extend it by saying the base formula is flawed in that it does not account for anything it tries to account for.

It tries to account for offence as Maximum damage. But really offence is maximum damage x probability of hit x number of events
It tries to account for damage mitigation as Toughness -5. But really damage mitigation is evasion probability x damage reduction +/-vulnerability/invulnerability.

Things like Armor of less than 6 are useless in SR as everything under the sun has Armor Piercing, also spells are a huge wow moment, as characters with Master of magic are suddenly able to make 6 attacks a round and are -4 or -6 to all attackers rolls. Use greater quickness to drain Spirit by 2-4 steps and puppet, followed immediately by the same thing as you are getting two full turns. This could TPK a party of adventurers on something that looks like it is only Seasoned.

That is why I am adding a color coding of Red and Yellow for dangerous objects and the GM will be able to use it for making up encounters also if he cares.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:48 am

I get what both of you are saying - but what you are talking about flies in the face of Fast, Furious, and Fun. CR is at best a rough quick estimate. So Thornhead Demon is worth more - fine, we increase him a rank or two. Whatever it takes. We don't need tons of math here. We're all good enough we can get this completed quickly, no need for complicated math - because there are a lot of players we'll lose. We need to work out a good reference so shifters can pick critters. Side note, it also creates an easy way for GMs to balance encounters, or at least try to.

Note, I need to use Thornhead against the Fighting Joes!

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:03 am

High Command wrote:I get what both of you are saying - but what you are talking about flies in the face of Fast, Furious, and Fun. CR is at best a rough quick estimate. So Thornhead Demon is worth more - fine, we increase him a rank or two. Whatever it takes. We don't need tons of math here. We're all good enough we can get this completed quickly, no need for complicated math - because there are a lot of players we'll lose. We need to work out a good reference so shifters can pick critters. Side note, it also creates an easy way for GMs to balance encounters, or at least try to.

Note, I need to use Thornhead against the Fighting Joes!

So you understand what I was planning. I started this on a computer last night so there was actually not going to be any real math effort so to speak as I only entered the formula once and it applied to the entire data table.

But if you do not want that in the finished product I am cool with that and can just as easily filter it to only be the values desired. As far as I am concerned the customer is always right.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:35 am

I just don't want to hear "too much math" from VV is all lol - include what you have

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:25 pm

High Command wrote:I just don't want to hear "too much math" from VV is all lol - include what you have

To be fair I am a risk analyst by profession in real life so what I consider "too much math" or "easy math" may not be relative to the common perception of too much math.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:22 am

@High Command

Do you interpret maximum damage in the by the book version of Combat rating to include maximum damage only from a single attack or combined maximum damage for rate of fire / multiple attacks?

Specific Exampe:
Heavy Rail Gun 4d10 RoF3 do you want 40 damage used in the calculation or do you want 120 damage used in the by the book calculation? As the rule was added as an after thought there is not a lot of elaboration in the book.

SW Deluxe page 144

Post by **High Command** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:57 am

I'm not sure, can you show me some ratings (like two or three) so I can see which feels better? Cause this is definitely "feels right" territory.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:28 pm

Here is a raw text output

GENERIC MAN | CR 3 | CR w/RoF 3
SUPREME COMMANDER KARL PROSEK | CR 24 | CR w/RoF 24
CAPTAIN JONAS SHRIKE | CR 22 | CR w/RoF 22
DEMOLITIONS | CR 9 | CR w/RoF 9
DOG BOY | CR 9 | CR w/RoF 9
GRUNT | CR 9 | CR w/RoF 18
MECHANIC | CR 9 | CR w/RoF 9
MEDIC | CR 9 | CR w/RoF 9
MILITARY SPECIALIST | CR 12 | CR w/RoF 12
PSI-STALKER | CR 10 | CR w/RoF 19
SAMAS w/PILOT | CR 12 | CR w/RoF 21 <<<<<<<
SKELEBOT | CR 10 | CR w/RoF 20
SKY CYCLE PILOT | CR 17 | CR w/RoF 17
SPIDER-SKULL w/PILOT | CR 54 | CR w/RoF 100 << Treated as a Wild Card because Vehicles have 3 wounds
TECHNICIAN | CR 9 | CR w/RoF 9
UAR-ENFORCER w/PILOT | CR 52 | CR w/RoF 96 << Treated as a Wild Card because Vehicles have 3 wounds

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:59 pm

Looking a bit more, it appears the default assumption not to use RoF or number of attacks as a modifier.

Personally I think at a minimum it would be a +1 per additional RoF after 1. But I am curious what you want.

Something I found out is it looks like a Mystic Knight is CR 26 for extras or 52 for wild cards!

Basically that puts a Mystic Knight wild card as the same threat level as a UAR1!

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:37 pm

Obviously I am not done yet. But I did move it into an excel format and start over so everyone can read it. Here is a shareable link as I am about halfway done, now would be a great time to start telling me feedback and comments.

Please note High Command's opinions will trump everyone else's without regard for popularity as he is the one commissioning the effort.

Working File

Post by **High Command** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:53 pm

Holy detailed mind-frack Batman! Dude, as someone who loves making simple shit difficult and complex - damn dude, I am in awe

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:06 pm

Well to be fair it does not look complicated in Access. But once you go to a spreadsheet it gets busy looking.

Post by **Freemage** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:48 pm

What is the difference between Summon and Relative Sumon?

Post by **Venatus Vinco** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:48 pm

Kid,

Looks fancy. Just out of curiosity why go with the foe names as columns instead of rows? Being able to filter that sheet by all those variables would be pretty handy.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:46 pm

Mostly just a data entry advantage.

With the XY in this orientation I can enter the data on the 10 key alone with my right hand while playing on my phone or doing other stuff with my left.
If I reverse the orientation then I need my left hand to hit tab so it prevents me from taking micro distractions.

When it is done I can easily just flip it to whatever layout Patrick wants.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:47 pm

PS: Excel also allows horizontal filtering so it can still happen if wanted.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:54 pm

Freemage wrote:What is the difference between Summon and Relative Sumon?

The relative values are based on the average Rifts character being about 40 points or 20 advances above a Novice.

Post by **Freemage** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:57 pm

Kidemónas wrote:
Freemage wrote:What is the difference between Summon and Relative Sumon?
The relative values are based on the average Rifts character being about 40 points or 20 advances above a Novice.

Given that no other spells get a similar upgrade I would not suggest it for summons either. Masters get Force Multiplication.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:20 pm

Freemage wrote:
Kidemónas wrote:
Freemage wrote:What is the difference between Summon and Relative Sumon?
The relative values are based on the average Rifts character being about 40 points or 20 advances above a Novice.
Given that no other spells get a similar upgrade I would not suggest it for summons either. Masters get Force Multiplication.

My goal here is to provide a tool for Patrick and hopefully the rest of the site. I am not looking to add house rules, instead I want the format to be such that all the information you want can be easily gathered so you can make a judgement when needed.

Attached is an answer I got from Clint on the topic. The primary limit on Summon is you just plain cannot summon one more powerful than yourself. So if your character is the equivalent of 40 advances it is good to know, because you simply could not summon a Dragon (under your control) without GM fiat.

As a note, Clint vetoed the answer given my Sean in order to give a more complete answer that included the design theory behind the power.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:54 am

Kidemónas wrote:Obviously I am not done yet. But I did move it into an excel format and start over so everyone can read it. Here is a shareable link as I am about halfway done, now would be a great time to start telling me feedback and comments.

Please note High Command's opinions will trump everyone else's without regard for popularity as he is the one commissioning the effort.

Working File

@High Command, the spreadsheet is done. I added the summons from SWD, for a total of 100 writee ups.
Now it needs audited, feedback, and I need to know how you want the export formatted.
You can read the assumptions tab for my line of thinking when "interpretation" was required as the book is a little vague on details.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:14 am

What's frustrating about that answer is that Born a hero breaks that rule from the start. You absolutely CAN get a minion more powerful than yourself. Just use the heroic option. Hell, realistically I can just trap the existing options and go to town. I've already done that to a degree. But I wanted more mechanical options as well.

But even taking what he says verbatim, the answer to what can I summon is: Anything up to my CR. Which is an answer - and better than what I have now (that being: What the spell says and whatever the GM agrees to).

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:28 am

I actually asked that question before we started this project (about 2 weeks ago). Lucky timing.

PS: I forgot to divide by half on extras for my own CR.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:53 am

One thing that is certain the ability to summon creatures should at the least be heavy damage for more than only Novice summons.

Because currently as per Clint Black the Experienced soldier comes equipped appropriately to the genre, so they will have energy weapons and armor. Making them more powerful than any other summons as they will have MD Vibro knife.

I have some ideas, but they are not matured enough to share relative to the new data I picked up doing this yesterday.

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:55 pm

I have a couple issues with this line of summoning. It is not consistent with the core power, and hardly any of the creatures listed above will be obedient servants.

Post by **High Command** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:04 pm

If you referring to the initial list, sure. We've moved beyond this and are exploring how you WOULD define the actual power level and apply other creatures to those power levels. But include things that actually are endemic to the setting, and actually do MD like they would if they were written for the setting. Rob wrote up a rather detailed accounting of the CR (the only measure available to us) of all the creatures in SFoNA. We're now discussing how to even apply that.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:24 pm

I am assuming hat there is still interest in this, so here is what I have.

After playing around with This a bit I have an idea I believe would be workable and balanced for all involved.

Cost | Rank | Maximum
3 | Novice | Bodyguard, Experienced Soldier, or CR 10 and 0 Advances or less
4 | Seasoned | Dire Wolf, Ogre, or CR 13 and 2 Advances or less
5 | Veteran | Elemental (any kind), or CR 16 and 6 Advances or less
6 | Heroic | Sentinel, or CR 19 and 10 Advances or less
7 | Legendary | Mirror Self, or CR 34 and (14 Advances or 4 less than the Character's current advancement).

7+1/advance after 14 and +1 added to maximum CR.

There, is a huge jump when going to Legendary, but I think that is honestly how SW is designed. A Shape changer can turn into a Young Adult Dragon at Novice, and a Glitter Boy can lay down the smack-down at Novice. Magic users have their advantage with Summon Ally.

The legendary CR was based on a PC having Quickness (4 actions), Bolt (36 Damage), Vigor d6 (5 toughness), Medium Armor providing +6, and the Exalted Armor with a Raise (+10 Armor) Spell up = (36/2)+(21-5)=34

The 14 Advances is based on Legendary being 18 Advances, so 1 rank less would be 14.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:36 pm

Kidemónas wrote:I am assuming hat there is still interest in this, so here is what I have.

After playing around with This a bit I have an idea I believe would be workable and balanced for all involved.

Cost | Rank | Maximum
3 | Novice | Bodyguard, Experienced Soldier, or CR 10 and 0 Advances or less
4 | Seasoned | Dire Wolf, Ogre, or CR 13 and 2 Advances or less
5 | Veteran | Elemental (any kind), or CR 16 and 6 Advances or less
6 | Heroic | Sentinel, or CR 19 and 10 Advances or less
7 | Legendary | Mirror Self, or CR 34 and (14 Advances or 4 less than the Character's current advancement).

7+1/advance after 14 and +1 added to maximum CR.

There, is a huge jump when going to Legendary, but I think that is honestly how SW is designed. A Shape changer can turn into a Young Adult Dragon at Novice, and a Glitter Boy can lay down the smack-down at Novice. Magic users have their advantage with Summon Ally.

The legendary CR was based on a PC having Quickness (4 actions), Bolt (36 Damage), Vigor d6 (5 toughness), Medium Armor providing +6, and the Exalted Armor with a Raise (+10 Armor) Spell up = (36/2)+(21-5)=34

The 14 Advances is based on Legendary being 18 Advances, so 1 rank less would be 14.

The language there is still a bit confusing to me. "CR X and Y advances"--can you give an example of how that would work out for, say, a Veteran caster?

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:49 pm

For example asa Veteran you can look at the spread sheet and select any of the creatures that is both CR 16 or less and 6 advances or less. You could use the filter, but the specific list would be as follows.

NAME:
COALITION GRUNT
COALITION DEMOLITIONS
COALITION MECHANIC
COALITION MEDIC
COALITION TECHNICIAN
COALITION DOG BOY
COALITION SKELEBOT
SKELETON w/C-10
ZOMBIE w/C-10
CAVALRY HORSE
SOLDIER
BANDIT
ROAD BOSS w/BANDIT
BANDIT
CIVILIAN
MINDLESS MINION
OPERATOR
ROBOT PILOT
SOLDIER
HUGE FLAYING SWARM THINGS

To make this useful I will add a column of summoning rank based on proposed system

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:54 pm

Of course, the first thing that jumps out at me is the Summon Spell no longer seems to obey the rules of the Summon spell. Elementals are all ranked differently, Mirror Self is now listed as Veteran....

I think this is a very useful starting point for the discussion, but I think we do need to avoid completely re-writing the spell.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:18 pm

Here is the full results of Power Points, Followed by Rank, Followed by Name. Note that as a Savage Worlds default character is already Legendary at start you will see almost all are legendary at some level.
However if people wanted we can easily add other books and player characters to this sheet.

For Freemage
03 Novice - _GENERIC MAN
03 Novice - CIVILIAN
03 Novice - BANDIT
03 Novice - SOLDIER
03 Novice - COALITION GRUNT
03 Novice - SOLDIER
03 Novice - COALITION MECHANIC
03 Novice - COALITION TECHNICIAN
03 Novice - COALITION DEMOLITIONS
03 Novice - COALITION MEDIC
03 Novice - MINDLESS MINION
03 Novice - BANDIT
03 Novice - SKELETON w/C-10
03 Novice - ZOMBIE w/C-10
03 Novice - HUGE FLAYING SWARM THINGS
03 Novice - SUMMON - BODY GUARD
03 Novice - SUMMON - EXPERIENCED SOLDIER
04 Seasoned - ROBOT PILOT
04 Seasoned - SUMMON - DIRE WOLF
04 Seasoned - OPERATOR
05 Veteran - ROAD BOSS w/BANDIT
05 Veteran - COALITION DOG BOY
05 Veteran - COALITION SKELEBOT
05 Veteran - CAVALRY HORSE
05 Veteran - SUMMON - OGRE
05 Veteran - SUMMON - ELEMENTAL FIRE
05 Veteran - SUMMON - ELEMENTAL EARTH
05 Veteran - SUMMON - ELEMENTAL AIR
05 Veteran - SUMMON - ELEMENTAL WATER
06 Heroic - COALITION SKY CYCLE PILOT
06 Heroic - SERGEANT OLIVIA RODRIGUEZ
06 Heroic - ENFORCER
06 Heroic - BRODKIL
06 Heroic - DEMON - LESSER
06 Heroic - GARGOYLE
06 Heroic - BRODKIL w/CYBERNETICS
06 Heroic - ROBOT HORSE
06 Heroic - SUMMON - SENTINEL
06 Heroic - COALITION MILITARY SPECIALIST
07 Legendary - COALITION SPIDER-SKULL w/PILOT
07 Legendary - COALITION UAR-ENFORCER w/PILOT
07 Legendary - OSTROSAURUS
07 Legendary - GLITTER BOY
07 Legendary - MIND MELTER
07 Legendary - CAPTAIN JONAS SHRIKE
07 Legendary - ROBOT PILOTS w/FORAGER
07 Legendary - BURSTER
08 Legendary - CITY RAT
08 Legendary - COALITION PSI-STALKER
08 Legendary - COMMANDO
08 Legendary - HEADHUNTER TECHNO WARRIOR
09 Legendary - WILDERNESS SCOUT
09 Legendary - TECHNO-WIZARD
11 Legendary - EXPEDITOR
12 Legendary - SIMVAN MONSTER RIDER
12 Legendary - CRAZY
12 Legendary - CYBER-KNIGHT
12 Legendary - FALLEN CYBER-KNIGHT
12 Legendary - EARTH THUNDER w/MAGE
12 Legendary - RHINO-BUFFALO
12 Legendary - HANGDOG
13 Legendary - WILD VAMPIRE
13 Legendary - FURY BEETLE
14 Legendary - CORRUPT
15 Legendary - JUICER
15 Legendary - BATTLELORD w/MAGE
16 Legendary - COMBAT MAGE
16 Legendary - ZARGUS THE GREAT
17 Legendary - COALITION SAMAS w/PILOT
17 Legendary - WARLORD JAHUUL
18 Legendary - XITICIX HUNTER
18 Legendary - MANSLAYER
18 Legendary - XITICIX WARRIOR
18 Legendary - LEY LINE WALKER
19 Legendary - ALTARA
19 Legendary - MYSTIC
19 Legendary - BRODKIL - LEADER
21 Legendary - CYBORG
25 Legendary - MURDER WRAITH
25 Legendary - WITCHLING
26 Legendary - GILBERT FAIRCHILD
29 Legendary - SHIFTER
29 Legendary - GENERAL KENNETH SPRITE
29 Legendary - IMMOLATOR
30 Legendary - THORNHEAD DEMON
30 Legendary - RIFT RUNNER
21 Legendary - DRAGON - HATCHLING
31 Legendary - NECROMANCER
31 Legendary - MYSTIC KNIGHT
31 Legendary - FECULENCE
32 Legendary - SUPREME COMMANDER KARL PROSEK
41 Legendary - BASAL
43 Legendary - SPLUGORTH SLAVER
45 Legendary - SUNAJ ASSASSIN
25 Legendary - GIGANTIC RAGING MONSTER
66 Legendary - NEURON BEAST
62 Legendary - DEMON - GREATER
76 Legendary - LORD ALISTAIR DUNSCON
77 Legendary - EMPEROR SABRE LASAR
79 Legendary - DRAGON - ADULT

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:13 pm

As a note a small change to making summoning the same advance actually moved the list a bit.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:25 pm

Okay, that is lovely. My feeble, kitten-sleep-deprived brain is definitely able to grok what I'm looking at, for the most part.

Now, is it meant to suggest that most of the Legendary critters should cost more than 9 PPts to summon? The obvious breach there would be Mirror Self at 14 Legendary.....

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:45 pm

Freemage wrote:Okay, that is lovely. My feeble, kitten-sleep-deprived brain is definitely able to grok what I'm looking at, for the most part.

Now, is it meant to suggest that most of the Legendary critters should cost more than 9 PPts to summon? The obvious breach there would be Mirror Self at 14 Legendary.....

That is an error. I thought I wrote an exception for the ones from SWD to maintain them as per the book.

Post by **High Command** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:55 pm

I'll be honest, some of your valuation seems off. I'm sure mathematically it's accurate, but in no way is an Ostrosaurus equal to a Glitter Boy or a Spider Skull Walker! (even if you could somehow summon robots and power armor). First of all, remove anything that is not a supernatural creature or some sort of natural creature off the list. No one is going to care what the true name of Bob the Psi-stalker is, nor is anyone going to summon him. Robots aren't summonable - that's just silly. We're not opening a rift here, we're conjuring something into existence from another place of existance. Second, if it's over 7 PPE, it's too powerful to simply be summoned.

What I was hoping for was a CR range. Something custom minions could be measured against. Even if I were to use the CS soldier's stats, I would have to retrap them to such a degree as they'd not be recognizable. But just as easily I could build my own celestial soldier armed with weapons of holy light from the ground up with my GM. The GM might give me a bennie if I actually summoned a CS soldier. And make me a target of extermination for the CS since I'd literally be abducting their people.

Novice - CR #-#, based on GM approval
Seasoned - CR #-#, based on GM approval
etc

.
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all your effort. And it has been amazing. You've more than earned that EP I offered. But we need to dial this back some to a tool that a Shifter and a GM can use to get the gist of what the Player wants with options the GM finds palatable.

Post by **Freemage** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:19 pm

While I agree that a large portion of the list is unsummonable (I'd eliminate all the 'named' figures for a start), I think keeping things like the Skelebots and such on there is fine so long as it's understood that you should use that as a similar baseline for figuring out what you can get with your holy light warriors, etc.

(For that matter, Libertas' Puzzle-Cube that summons clockwork creatures could probably come up with a reasonable Skelebot facsimile... Trappings, trappings, all is trappings....)

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:27 pm

For clarity I agree with most of what is said.

The list was an export based on a simple macro, not meant to be a final product.

Where a Robot would come in is as something to be retrapped. Perhaps the Skull Walker is actually a Lightning Elemental.

Also I think if it was my house I would move the bench mark. Gargoyles should be a hero Benchmark
Lesser Demons and Brodkil would be the veteran Benchmark

But I figured you wanted the raw data to look at do the GMs could have the discussion in the background.

As I said before I will do whatever is up for discussion and when I get home I will post it without the mercenaries, coalition, and technology stuff.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:45 am

High Command,
Here is the spreadsheet again. This time I moved all the stuff you do not want to the far right so only the basics are on the left. The default format of rows and columns also changed to the way requested by VV. This will allow you to filter and export however you would like for reviewing the data. The headers from left to right are as follows.

NAME: | CATEGORY: | SW DX CR: | WILD CARD: | MAX DAMAGE: | TOUGHNESS:

SW DX CR = Savage Worlds Deluxe Challenge Rating

All Savage Foes of North America and Savage Worlds Deluxe Challenge Ratings

Let me know what else you may need. I do plan to casually continue adding other books as time goes on.

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:12 am

Here is the data filtered to be only what you have requested High Command, with the excess data removed.

Summons Sorted by CR

Post by **Pender Lumkiss** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:48 am

I did find it interesting that Clint explained a differnce between the two summon powers: beast friend would cover animal intelegences, while summon ally would cover non animal intelegences. What is interesting is summon ally specifically mentions dire wolf which has an animal intrlegence, and one of the trappings a ghostly dog would seem to indicate you could summon a dog.

Here is the link to Kid's post above http://savagerifts.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 094#p13931

I would probably go with

Noivice=Bandit, midless minion
Seasoned=Black Market enforcer, Ostrosaurus(not sure about this, but really its the only comparision to the dire wolf)
Vetran=Earth thunderer? You could retrap it for any elemental, brodkill
Heroic=gargoyle, lesser demon, xictic warrior/ hunter
Legendary=brodkill leader, wild vampire(maybe)

Well, as a gm I would be ok with the above, maybe some shifting around on what goes into which rank catagory

Kidemonas · Post by **Kidemonas** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:59 am

I honestly consider that just an error in his reasoning, not only for the reasons you mentioned. But also because Beast Friends inherent limitations.
It would be like comparing Bolt and Blast as if they were the same.

Perhaps a better way would be to add the Special Considering column to the simple CR and consider something to have +5 for Major abilities like Fast Regeneration or Puppet and +10 for Extreme abilities like Elemental or Werewolf invulnerability. This would put the elemental In the same group as a Gargoyle which feels about right.