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 ValhallaGH's Breakdowns 
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I do not want this to get lost again so here is ValhallaGH's Breakdown.
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Burster [61]
4 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly one edge each [8 Power Points]
Arcane Background (Psionics): one edge, three skill levels [5 Power Points]
Everything Burns: Expanded ability to ignit objects with the fire trapping of the powers. [1 Power Point, estimated.]
Fiery Aura (Damage): Damage Field (2 levels) plus Attack, Melee (+3d6, stackable, multiple attacks) [16 Power Points]
Fiery Aura (Armor): 3 levels, activation required [2 Power Points]
Fire Mastery: Energy Control (Large Burst Template, Limitation - no damage) [5 Power Points]
Fire Walker: Resistance fire ten levels (10), electricity five levels but damage only (4), light to five but only versus lasers (2) [16 Power Points]
Flame Bolt: Attack, Ranged at three levels [6 Power Points]
Major Psionic: one edge [2 Power Points]
Total Cost = [61 Power Points] most of that in the Fiery Aura and Fire Walker abilities. Honestly, given the overall rarity of electricity damage, and the lack of resistance to electrical stun weapons, I would downgrade that cost a couple of points. There's an argument that the ability to upgrade the abilities with ISP is worth a point, but the character is already paying for two edges to have that resource, so I'm not going to charge more for it. They don't have Master Psionic, but with their Fiery Aura and Flame Bolt they don't actually need it.

Juicer [45]
5 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly one edge each [10 Power Points]
Internal Repair System: Regeneration one level, Healing with Healer edge but limited to self and three per day [5 Power Points]
Super Endurance: +2 steps Vigor, uncapped potential, doesn't sleep one level, +2 versus fatigue (half benefit of rank one resistance, all trappings; probably two points) [8 Power Points]
Super Reflexes: +2 steps Agility, uncapped potential, Uncanny Reflexes, Quick [11 Power Points]
Super Speed: Fleet Footed edge, one level of Speed [4 Power Points]
Super Strength: +2 steps Strength, uncapped potential, Brawny edge [7 Power Points]
Burn: enough drawbacks and advantages that this is probably a wash.
Total Cost = [45 Power Points] making a very effective and deadly super soldier. I priced uncapped potential as a one point modifier on super attribute.

Flame Wind Dragon Hatchling [96]
2 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [4 Power Points]
Unlimited Growth Potential: essentially a unique category of iconic edges [0 Power Points]
Arcane Background: edge and two skill levels [4 Power Points]
Armored Hide: Armor eight levels, heavy, Toughness six levels, both Limited - dragon form [16 Power Points]
Claws/Bite: Attack, Melee three levels, heavy, armor piercing two, Limited - dragon form [8 Power Points]
Fear: Limited - dragon from [2 Power Points]
Fire Breath: Attack, Ranged, three levels, switchable with Attack, Ranged, enhanced damage, mandatory cone, Limited - dragon from [7 Power Points]
Flight: double pace, climb 0, Limited - dragon from [3 Power Points]
Impervious to Fire: Resistance ten to fire/heat [10 Power Points]
Infravision: Heightened Senses one level [1 Power Points]
Inherently Magical: can take a second AB, the power points benefits of Major Psioinic for PPE, roughly an edge [2 Power Points]
Limited Metamorphosis: Shape Change size 0 retains Strength and Vigor (probably a +2 extra) or Chameleon, limited to single form, limited duration, limited six hour cool down [1 Power Points]
Mighty: +2 steps Super Strength, +2 levels Super Vigor, both uncapped [10 Power Points]
Nigh-Immortality: Ageless, Immune to disease and Immune to poison [3 Power Points]
Size +6: Growth 6, Strength is always on (custom extra, priced as +2), Limited - all or nothing [19 Power Points]
Slow Regeneration: Regeneration level one with Regrowth [4 Power Points]
Tail Lash: limited version of Sweep edge, with Attack, Melee one level, both Limited - dragon from [2 Power Points]
Total Cost = [96 Power Points] for an incredibly versatile and powerful Iconic Framework. By far the highest cost Framework, with more points than a Cosmic Super Karma character. Very powerful creatures, to be feared and respected. Especially if they take some of the available Unlimited Growth Potential edges; Metamorphosis to gain long-term infiltration ability, Fast Regeneration to get nearly unstoppable in combat (regardless of form), Flaming Scales to increase damage output even further, or Size Increase to be a more fearsome tank.

Combat Cyborg [62]
3 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [6 Power Points]
Bionic Augmentation: +4 steps Strength, +2 Agility, +3 Vigor, all uncapped [21 Power Points]
Cybernetic Enhancements: Heightened Senses super hearing, super sight, infravision, low light vision, Broadcast limited to radio, Interface [8 Power Points]
High Performance Legs: fleet footed edge [2 Power Points]
M.D.C. Armor: Armor four levels, heavy, Toughness three levels [11 Power Points]
More Machine: Construct ability [8 Power Points]
Size +1: Growth, monster [1 Power Points]
Upgradable: Edge [2 Power Points]
Unarmed Combat: Attack, Melee one level, heavy [3 Power Points]
Total Cost = [62 Power Points] and excludes a few minor benefits from the cybernetic enhancments that were too small to be worth a power point. Bionic augmentation cost assumes all three attributes start at d6, consistent with the reduced starting attribute pool.

Crazy [47]
5 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [10 Power Points]
Losing It: Berserk edge with a recovery time, a wash [0 Power Points]
Bio-Regeneration: Regeneration one level [2 Power Points]
Enhanced Attributes: +2 to three attributes, all uncapped [15 Power Points]
Enhanced Speed: Speed double pace [2 Power Points]
Heightened Senses: as the power with eagle eyes, tracking, and Alertness edge [4 Power Points]
Minor Psionic: Arcane Background edge and d6 skill [4 Power Points]
Quick: edge [2 Power Points]
Super Endurance: doesn't sleep one, Resistance 1 to all fatigue sources [4 Power Points]
Super Reflexes: Uncanny Reflexes [4 Power Points]
Total Cost = [47 Power Points] give or take a point for Super Endurance. Basically a Juicer with psionics.

Cyber Knight [38]
5 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [10 Power Points]
Cyber-Armor: Toughness two levels, activation required [1 Power Points]
Cyberkinetic Combat: Uncanny Reflexes with a minor limitation [3 Power Points]
First Into Battle: basically Fleet Footed edge, stacks [2 Power Points]
Inner Light: Champion edge [2 Power Points]
Intense Combat Training: +3 Fighting skill, two combat edges [7 Power Points]
Minor Psionic: arcane background edge, d6 skill, short power list, some free action casting [4 Power Points]
Psi-Sword: roughly Attack, Melee level two, with three AP bonuses, multiple attacks, and one-armed; dropping two AP bonuses for a second blade is essentially negating one-armed [7 Power Points]
Revered Protectors: charismatic edge [2 Power Points]
Total Cost = [38 Power Points] but they have some of the better Iconic edges, making them one of the stronger long-term characters.

M.A.R.S. Personal Concept Option [39]
3 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [6 Power Points]
4 Fortune and Glory rolls, roughly four power points per result [16 Power Points]
+5 Skill points [5 Power Points]
two edges [4 Power Points]
four advances, each providing roughly two power points of benefit [8 Power Points]
Total Cost = [39 Power Points] ignoring the Hero's Journey rolls. That Fortune & Glory table makes up most of the difference, providing roughly four power points of benefit on a result of four or more.

Ley Line Walker [44]
5 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [10 Power Points]
Arcane Background (Magic): arcane background, two new power, and one power points edges, d8 skill [11 Power Points]
Expanded Awareness: detect arcana at will as a free action, roughly equivalent to Heightened Senses - infravision, low light vision, spatial sense, limited magic [3 Power Points]
Ley Line Magic Mastery: free action, +1 multiplier, roughly two edges [4 Power Points]
Ley Line Rejuvenation: Regeneration one level, Limitation - on a ley line [1 Power Points]
Ley Line Sense: lots of sensory knowledge, estimated value [3 Power Points]
Ley Line Transmission: Telepathy, broadcast, selective, trapping alteration [5 Power Points]
Ley Line Walking: Flight, double pace, Limited - along ley lines [3 Power Points]
Master of Magic: edge plus Rapid Recharge edge [4 Power Points]
Total Cost = [44 Power Points] which is a lot better than I was expecting when I started this. They're pretty line focused, with about one third of their points limited to working on or information about ley lines. Still, on a line they are pretty strong, and away from one they are fine wizards (far more dangerous than this point total might indicate).

Mind Melter [25]
4 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [8 Power Points]
Arcane Background (Psionics): arcane background and two new power edges, d8 skill [9 Power Points]
Expanded Awareness: detect arcana at will as a free action, roughly equivalent to Heightened Senses - infravision, low light vision, spatial sense, limited magic [3 Power Points]
Major Psionic: as edge [2 Power Points]
Master Psionic: as edge [2 Power Points]
Mental Resistance: Resistance one to psionic/psychic [1 Power Points]
Total Cost = [25 Power Points] which is the lowest total by far. However, the breadth and versatility of the power list means that they are actually competitive, especially when using powers that are relevant to the challenges. That versatility is the main reason I initially avoided costing the 'pure caster' Frameworks, anticipating a low cost not representative of their 'in play' effectiveness. After the surprise of the Ley Line Walker, curiosity demanded that I continue.

Mystic [40]
5 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [10 Power Points]
Arcane Background (Miracles): arcane background, two new power, power points edges, d8 skill [11 Power Points]
Arcane Background (Psionics): arcane background, d6 skill [4 Power Points]
Cosmic Confluence: can have two instances of Arcane Background, can share power points at a two-to-one conversion, about an edge [ 2 Power Points]
Master of Magic: as edge, plus limited Rapid Recharge edge [3 Power Points]
Mystic Awareness: two edges and equivalent of Expanded Awareness, plus can sense powerful supernaturals within sight (roughly another edge) [9 Power Points]
Spiritual Channel: basically soul drain limited to one power [1 Power Points]
Total Cost = [40 Power Points] and a powerful caster with two arcane backgrounds. Note the role play limitations from Miracles, and if your GM is on the ball then you'll be facing those challenges about as often as you roll a 1 on your Psionics die.

Techno-Wizard [46]
5 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [10 power Points]
Arcane Background (Weird Science): arcane background, two new power, power points edges, d8 skill [11 Power Points]
Arcane Machinist: Invent at about five levels, on the fly, limited to half Smarts uses per session [11 Power Points]
Machine Maestro: trademark weapon edge plus improved limited to techno-wizard creations, and non-combat equivalents [6 Power Points]
Required Knowledge: d6 in four skills [8 Power Points]
Total Cost = [46 Power Points] though there is a cheaper way to price arcane machinist, this choice seemed the most appropriate. Equivalent to the other Masters of Magic in power, but lacking the Master of Magic edge, the techno-wizard will shine when given a few advances, or some preparation time. Lots of potential as a force multiplier.

Glitter Boy [98]
5 Hero's Journey rolls: roughly an edge each [10 Power Points]
Fully Trained: edge [2 Power Points]
Glitter Boy Armor (Armor): Armor level nine, heavy, device, Toughness level six, device, Super Strength eight, doesn't stack with natural strength, device, Immune to disease, Immune to poison, Doesn't Breath, device, Resistance level five, light, damage only, device, Resistance level four, heat, cold, radiation, pressure, device, Aquatic, device, Speed roughly double pace, device, Broadcast, range, one channel, device, Heightened Senses, eagle eyes, infravision, low light vision, super hearing, super vision, device, Alertness, device [53 Power Points]
Glitter Boy Armor (Gun): roughly Attack, Ranged at five levels, enhanced damage, heavy, armor piercing twelve, medium burst template, insanely extended range (+8), lethal, must dig in, all or nothing, device [30 Power Points]
Heroic Legacy: Charismatic edge plus an anti-theft feature [3 Power Points]
Many Have Fallen: price for Technical Difficulties repairs [0 Power Points]
Total Cost = [98 Power Points] getting almost as many power points as the dragon, but almost all of that (about 83 points) is tied up in his armor and boom gun. Ironically, the nature of vehicular weaponry in the setting makes a quarter of the armor's power points largely irrelevant due to AP. But the fringe benefits of wearing a Glitter Boy, or any power armor, are worth about twenty three power points in sensors, communications, armor strength, and environmental protection. Add in the actual armor and toughness benefits, and the armor's movement modes, and the whole thing comes in at a high point total. The Glitter Boy is probably the most house ruled cost, but that's expected since it seems to have been built using the Science Fiction Companion Power Armor rules.

Original at: http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 20#p446880
His attempt at a supers IF: http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 63#p455963

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:40 pm
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Poor Mind Melter. :cry:

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:58 pm
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Lol,
We have not ranted on that in weeks.

Patrick is playing one in Joker's and seems to be doing okay.

PS: I even had to apologize to him because when I made a MARS and a Shifter version of my old character Ndreare the MARS version was actually better.

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:03 pm
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Well all those values do need to be taken with a grain of salt. If for no other reason than not all edges are created equally. Even more so some edges combine to be greater than the sum of their parts. The more I think on it the more I think that while the MM could use a little more omph the real issue the MM has no toys for its toy box. Not like all the other IF's do. All the others have a combination of unique abilities and/or iconic edges to make them stand out. Hell, the Techno-Wizard IS a toy box. The Mind Melter OTOH get a +4 vs other Psychics. woot

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:22 pm
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Yeah, the MM really just needs a set of unique Trappings and Iconic Edges, and it'd be fine in terms of power.

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:29 pm
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Freemage wrote:
Yeah, the MM really just needs a set of unique Trappings and Iconic Edges, and it'd be fine in terms of power.

Patrick argued the same thing.

Perhaps just a small bump game mechanically, but make it huge in flavor.

Mind Melters & Trappings
    The main strength of a mind melter is that while there powers may seem like any other master psionic or master of magic in reality they are completely different in three ways.
    1. As a default all mind melters powers have 'no trapping' that is their powers simply happen, there is no visible effect when they are used.
    2. A mind melters powers are inherently controlled to the extreme, they do not bleed off energy like other powers and as such all attempts to detect or dispel them suffer an additional -2. This stacks with the -2 for alternate arcane backgrounds when being detected or affected by non-psionics for a -4 total.
    3. While not as powerful as a burster mind melters are naturally polikinetic. A mind melter may add 1 to the ISP cost to cast and maintain in order to change the trapping of any power they are using from inherantly controlled to any of the following trappings from Savage Worlds Delux Cold, Electricity, Darkness, or Heat/Fire. If the new trapping has an additional power point cost that is added in addition to the 1 additional ISP.

Basically this is like 3 edges, two which are meh, but the last one is super awesome, the equivalent of the "Master +5" modifier from Super Powers Companion and turns that 25 point build into a 25+2+2+5 = 34 point build that has unique value and brings something awesome to the table.

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:13 pm
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PS: Do you think we have lost sight of the original topic and should move this?

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:14 pm
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I don't think so at least IMO. After all what good is all that point breakdown goodness if you aren't going to use it to discuss the strengths and weakness of the various iconic frameworks? OTOH I'm not going to be upset if you want to move my comments. :)

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:08 pm
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For the record, I'm not playing one in the Jokers, though I would play LC as one if I thought I could get in the OTHER stuff I want for him. :D Actually now I have to check the build lol

I do agree that MM's should have some iconic trappings. And no, don't move it, it's good to have this enshrined lol

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Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:09 pm
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I would probably be the last person to just blanket add a few additional trappings or features to an Iconic class. However I recently made a mind melter named Sammy. After making it, I deleted it and made a MARS ab psionics. I could have the entire rapid recharge line, plus Elan and 4 rolls on the F and G table, and better starting gear. While loosing the mm bonus vs psionics,2 HJ rolls, and 10 ppts, and marksman. I could have picked up Marksman instead of exceptional recharge, and 10 ppts instead of improved rapid. So really when comparing to the personal concept you loose the +4 bonus vs psionics and two HJ rolls. In exchange you can get an additional edge like rapid recharge, and 4 rolls on F and G.
I ended up going MARS and it really opened my eyes.
I am on board with what Kid proposed, or even letting their bonus vs psionics also add to their opposed psionic rolls. Similar to mentalist.

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Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:07 am
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Some anecdotal information.

ICONIC FRAMEWORK - SPC2 Build Points
Burster - 61
Juicer - 45
Dragon - 96 - special: dual AB counted as only 1 edge each. Rob disagrees with this
Cyborg - 62
Crazy - 47
Cyber-Knight - 38
MARS PCC - 39 - special: rolls can modify this roll significantly
Ley Line Walker - 44
Mind Melter - 25
Mystic - 40 - special: dual AB counted as only 1 edge each. Rob disagrees with this
Techno-Wizard - 46 - special: archane machinist is worth an additional edge per Smarts over d10
Glitter Boy - 98
Average w/ MM - 53.42
Average w/o MM - 56.00

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Wed May 16, 2018 2:19 pm
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