Revision: Item Creation: Experimental Super Technology Items

[High Command]

Item Creation: Experimental Super Technology Items

Usable both by Super-Scientists and GMs and players building Signature Items, these rules may be used to quantify just how much a super-tech item costs. These rules stand apart and do not stack with technowizardry or Enchanted item construction rules. Wild Card PC Super-Scientists are limited to their power list, just like Wild Card PC Techno-Wizards. All super-tech items suffer from technical difficulties and are either -4 to be repaired, or -2 to be repaired and the item must have a Quirk.

Signature Items are not limited to any particular power list.

Experimental Super-Technology Items
Super-Scientists are weird scientists using Arcane Background (Weird Science). Rather than involving themselves in matters arcane, Super-Scientists delve into the cutting edge of technology and other sciences. Their trappings must be based on advanced scientific and technological concepts. Any Super-Scientist can make super-tech items. Crafting an Super-tech item is a fairly straightforward process, though not quick.
Preparation: The Super-Scientist needs parts costing one-third of the item’s initial (list) price. The procedure takes 6d12 hours for personal weapons or gear, or 2d6 weeks for larger installations, such as furniture, vehicles or their components, seige gear, or building parts (such as super-tech vault doors and super-tech alarm systems for the castle armory).

Base Super-Technology Item
Not all super-tech items have powers or extra trappings. Some are simply exotic technological swords. Choose an item that has the appropriate effect and say it works by super-science instead of its base item's power source. Generally this works with all melee and ranged weapons, armor, and even vehicles, power armor, robots and robot vehicles. A hover cycle might become an Anti Gravity Skimmer that can operate in space just as easily as on the planet, etc. Cost is based on the original item. Other items will have to be adjudicated by the GM for cost.

• Build Roll: The Super-Scientist makes a roll using the lower of Knowledge (Electronics), Knowledge (Engineering), or the Weird Science arcane skill; this is the standard roll for Super-tech Item design and is called a Build roll. On a failure, the time and parts are wasted, but on a success the Super-tech item is complete. If the Craftsman gets a raise, he may add one Minor Upgrade (see below). Melee weapons can be converted to Super-tech devices, but have little impact unless Minor Upgrades are applied, except that they count as magical against creatures vulnerable to such. note these devices are "always on" and require no external power to function.

Minor Upgrade
Minor Upgrades add a small magical benefit to a super-tech item. Adding a Minor Upgrade to a super-tech item costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 3d12 hours. Super-tech items are limited to a number of slots based on the super-scientist's rank, shown in the chart below.

• Novice: Two Minor Qualities
  Seasoned: One Major Quality, Two Minor Qualities
  Veteran: Two Major Qualities, Two Minor Qualities
  Heroic: Three Major Qualities, Two Minor Qualities
  Legendary: Four Major, Two Minor Qualities

They may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades, but an item can only have the same upgrade twice. As above, a failure wastes the time and materials, a success installs the upgrade, and a raise grants a Minor Upgrade (as long as the item can take another).

• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
  +1 damage to a weapon.
  +2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
  +1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
  Add one additional E-Clip Port (for short E-Clips only) or one small super-capacitor that provides 5 Power Points. †
  Halve the weight of the item (reduce to one quarter if taken twice; reduce to one eighth if the item got a raise during creation).
  Apply a Trapping to the device.
  Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM.

Major Upgrade
Starting at Veteran Rank, Super-Scientists can add more powerful abilities to super-tech items. Modification takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below). The Super-Scientists makes a Build roll (lowest of Knowledge (Electronics), Knowledge (Engineering), and the Weird Science arcane skill) but at −4 for a Major Upgrade. Failure wastes the time and parts; success installs the upgrade; on a raise, the Super-Scientists may choose to add a Minor Upgrade and then only if the Super-tech item has a space to add one.

• Add a power to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of power).* # &
  Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge).* &
  +1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
  Add one additional E-Clip Port (for Long E-Clips only) or one large super-capacitor that provides 10 Power Points. (Cost: 30,000 credits). †
  Add the equivalent of a personal weapon or piece of personal gear to a device. For every ten pounds (round down) add one die type to the device's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the device.
  Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies).

* The Super-Scientist can only install powers and Edges of his Rank or less. Embedded powers must be from the Super-Scientist's powers list (though he doesn’t have to actually know them). For five times the cost, the power activates as part of another action (an attack roll for a weapon or roll to activate another power) using the Trait result of the primary action as its own activation. The user must still spend Power Points before making the roll, and a failure on the primary action means the power fails as well.
† It takes one action to reinsert an e-clip assuming one is handy. Super Capacitors do not come with additional E-Clip ports, but do require power from E-Clips to charge their energy storage matrix. A short E-Clip recharges 5 Power Points instantly. A long E-Clip recharges 10 Power Points instantly. The weapon must still also have a full long E-clip inserted to power the base item. Each 20% of a short E-Clip's capacity is 1 Power Point. Each 10% of long E-Clip's capacity is 1 Power Point. Round fractions down. E-Clip purchase and recharge costs are listed on page 89 of TLPG.
# Availability of powers is limited to the super-scientists's power list.
& Master of Magic is not generally available for Super-Tech items. Instead use the Power Mastery edge (see house rules).

[Pender Lumkiss]

change the ab to weird science with at least 1 super science trapping on a power. I this is the core issue. Super Scientists are people with Arcane Back ground weird science that have super science trappings on their powers.

I do have some questions and they are about mods I find intriguing.

Cybernetic mod: Is the amount of strain taken into account anyway? For some reason I see strain on a cybernetic as some kind of indicator as to how powerful/useful the cybernetic is. Is there any thought to 1 Major Mod per p1 of strain? So if you want the extra arm cybernetic mod ( 3 strain), its going to take 3 major mods.

Add equipment: How are you handling vehicular weapons? Are personal weapons 1 mod, then size 1 vehicular cost 2 major mods, and size 2 vehicular weapons costing 3 major mods? Or are vehicular weapons a no no?

[High Command]

change the ab to weird science with at least 1 super science trapping on a power. I this is the core issue. Super Scientists are people with Arcane Back ground weird science that have super science trappings on their powers.

Done

Cybernetic mod: Is the amount of strain taken into account anyway? For some reason I see strain on a cybernetic as some kind of indicator as to how powerful/useful the cybernetic is. Is there any thought to 1 Major Mod per p1 of strain? So if you want the extra arm cybernetic mod ( 3 strain), its going to take 3 major mods.

That seems needlessly strict to me. Besides, since they are being used for effective equivalents, who says they are even the same precise thing. We're not actually talking about putting a cybernetic arm on a suit of armor, but using cybernetics to put a nano-tool kit onto the chest of a skin tight super-tech suit.

Add equipment: How are you handling vehicular weapons? Are personal weapons 1 mod, then size 1 vehicular cost 2 major mods, and size 2 vehicular weapons costing 3 major mods? Or are vehicular weapons a no no?

I'd call vehicular mods only appropriate for base items that are vehicular in scale (such as power armor, robots, and vehicles).

[Tribe of One]

I'd agree with Pender, if adding Cybernetics as a mod, one Major Upgrade slot should probably get you just 1 Strain worth of cyber, unless there's some other trade off. At a minimum, higher Strain systems should cost more, like powers of higher rank.

[High Command]

They already do. This retains the inherent cybernetics cost and adds another flat 25%. It's also less efficient to do certain things via cybernetics. So this really simply becomes can I include non-attribute cybernetic systems. Raising Str a die type costs 10,000; doing it with cybernetics costs 11,250; Agility costs 10K, and with cybernetics costs 15K. Each of those, btw is 1 strain. Ironically the things that cost more strain are smaller and less invasive; Combat coding, etc. The alternative is to make it easier to just implant an edge rather than use Embedded Combat Coding (strain 2). So including ANY edge is one major mod, but using ECC it's 2 MAJOR mods? doesn't seem right.

[Tribe of One]

It's completely fine if it's more efficient to use the stock upgrades (+1d Strength, add a Edge) instead of adding cyberware (Bionic Strength, ECC) to do the same thing. What isn't fine is using the "Add a piece of cyberware" mod to get multiple upgrades worth of benefits, which is what happens with pretty much every high Strain cyber besides ECC or the Adrenal System (which still stacks with Combat Reflexes, so not totally worthless).

Internal Life Support is as least two Edges worth of benefits, as is the Nano-Repair System. Expanded Detection and Security Array gives you Danger Sense and Alertness (that stacks with normal Alertness), and Extra Set of Arms is as good as Split the Seconds, which is exclusive to Juicers and Crazies.

Unless there some other cost, snagging "Add Cyber" for those systems will be flat out better than existing options. Instead, I think the existing options ought to be the default, with "Add cyber" am option for things you just can't do with the stock upgrades.

[Pender Lumkiss]

HC slammed my brain with a thought, maybe instead of specifically calling out cybernetics call out the ability to add the upgrade edge. I know it is effectively saying the same thing, but to me just calling out the upgrade edge makes it cleaner and without any ambiguity to how rules are supposed to apply.

To be clear I really like the flavor of adding cybernetics it makes super tech differ from other item creations.

[High Command]

I can live with the Upgrade edge as the way to add cybernetics. I had actually had that thought first, but I wanted to make it less ambiguous. I also wanted to introduce the price of the cybernetics (which is non-trivial). Instead of price + 25% it will be price + edge cost instead. This also means I can just use the implanted weapon cybernetics.

• Add the equivalent of a Cybernetic Implant to device with a modified version of the Upgrade Edge (Cost: varies per the cost of implant, plus 40,000 for the edge). Ignore the Strain of the cybernetic. Note that this can include the implanted melee and ranged weapon cybernetics as well. Only Power Armor, Robots, Robot Vehicles, and Vehicles may mount items with a MOD trait instead of a weight. This may be taken twice, like any other Mod.

[Tribe of One]

I still think there ought to be some additional cost for high-Strain cybernetics, otherwise they grant a significantly greater benefit than comparable Edges. And before you say "The Upgrade Edge gets you any cybernetic you want," it doesn't let you ignore the higher Strain, which provides a balancing factor.

[Pender Lumkiss]

I still think there ought to be some additional cost for high-Strain cybernetics, otherwise they grant a significantly greater benefit than comparable Edges. And before you say "The Upgrade Edge gets you any cybernetic you want," it doesn't let you ignore the higher Strain, which provides a balancing factor.

I do not necessarily disagree with this. For example: A supertech Armor takes the upgrade edge as a major upgrade for the extra arm cybernetic ( strain 3). What happens to the strain? Ignored? Seems to disregard an essential piece of balance for cybernetics.

Obviously the central question is so this upgrade edge is taken for a piece of cybernetics being integrated into armor, a weapon, what have you... Strain might not necessarily make sense because the item might not be connected to the player. Now vehicles have available mod slots, so it could be realities easy to just say strain eats those mod slots, but armor and weapons do not have these listed. One option could be taking the weapon dice value or armor bonus and halving it. This would get you some kind of mod slot that strain would eat into. Clearly we are delving into a house rule on top of a house rule.

It might just be easier to keep strain as is. Adding the upgrade edge somehow connects it ( in a removable manner) to a player and its strain must be taken into account for as long as the item is powered or in use.

[High Command]

I don't know how many times I can say that Super-tech is meant to be smaller, more efficient, and generally more compact than normal technology. It is meant to be special. The use of cybernetic systems is simply to have things like tool kits and weapon, etc without having to reinvent the flipping wheel. These are equivalent systems meant to simulate advanced systems. Make me something that breaks the game and maybe I'll agree. Make a supertech item with cybernetics that outperforms something with built in powers, edges, bonuses, and PP and maybe I'll grant the point. Don't forget that EVERY device comes with a repair penalty that stacks with technical difficulties, which they are subject to. EVERY DEVICE. Yes, even the ones with cybernetic systems.

[Pender Lumkiss]

I don't know how many times I can say that Super-tech is meant to be smaller, more efficient, and generally more compact than normal technology. It is meant to be special. The use of cybernetic systems is simply to have things like tool kits and weapon, etc without having to reinvent the flipping wheel. These are equivalent systems meant to simulate advanced systems. Make me something that breaks the game and maybe I'll agree. Make a supertech item with cybernetics that outperforms something with built in powers, edges, bonuses, and PP and maybe I'll grant the point. Don't forget that EVERY device comes with a repair penalty that stacks with technical difficulties, which they are subject to. EVERY DEVICE. Yes, even the ones with cybernetic systems.

I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. Given the rules of cybernetics and strain are we just that prepared to toss out strain? Isn't strain one of the balancing things for cybernetics?

[High Command]

I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. Given the rules of cybernetics and strain are we just that prepared to toss out strain? Isn't strain one of the balancing things for cybernetics?

Actually you are, because you are operating under the false impression that the mod would give something or nothing. Nothing is free here. To get that device they have to pay for an edge, a cost NO OTHER MOD has. So in order to GET a thing, they not only have to pay for the thing, they have to pay extra for the thing. Aloso, nothing is being put inside of a body! These are add ons - external add ons! They body has limited space (Strain). That is not true of a weapon, or suit of body armor. It may make the item more bulky, and raise minimum strength, but it can be done. Yes, I think we toss it out. As I said, if someone can put something together that shows it is undeniably better in most cases, I'll back off. There is no way I am introducing a strain mechanic into weapons or armor or vehicles. Neither is it feasible with as few mods as SuperTech gets to require them to pay THREE MODS for ONE gain. And even in the cases where they do get a slight edge over equivalent edges, the use is usually quite marginal and situational. I have not personally found one cybernetic that gives me pause. If anyone has, PLEASE build it out and show me the error of my ways! Heck just adding Quickness to an item has greater impact than ANY cybernetic option. And as stated, they are more expensive, have a requirement to gain, which costs extra.

So the challenge here: Break this, please. Show me I'm wrong and I'll shut up.

[Pender Lumkiss]

i am pretty sure you asked for feedback. I cannot help the fact cybernetics have strain. If you want to house rule the upgrade edge as an major mod does not cost strain thats one thing. I will be the first to line up my magic character to buy a couple supertech or if this also applies to tw items, then tw items that have cybernetics in them.

[High Command]

This is only supertech, not TW. Strain is a balance on how much can be put in a body, which IS an important consideration. But we are not putting it in a humanoid body here. We are adding a cybernetic eye system (Ranged Data System) to a rifle to be an auto focusing scope. We are adding a weapon to a pair of vibro-vambraces to make a Forearm Integrated Weapon System that is usable by normal folk. We're making an advanced Naruni gun usable only by their RepoBots that has a built in chainsword. Strain is not appropriate because it assumes the limits of the humanoid body. We're adding systems to other items.

How about Strain add to the Minimum Strength of an item. So Strain 1 bumps it up to D6 min if it had none, or up one level if it did. Strain 3 takes a d6 minimum to a d12. Then we can apply reduced weight.

[Tribe of One]

For Strain 1 cyber, I think it's fine for the Strain to go away. But there needs to be something to balance out the Strain 2-3 items.

Here's your game-breaker for ya:

Ley Line Walker's Signature Armor O'Doom:

Base Item: T-12 Field Medic Armor (65k)
TW Conversion Cost: (6.5k)
Minor: +2 Armor (5k)
Minor: +2 Armor (5k)
Major: Extra Set of Arms (250k+40k)
Major: Nano-Repair System (250k+40k)
Major: Expanded Detection and Security Array (33k+40k)
Major: Reinforced Frame (150k+40k)

Total Cost: 924,500 Cr (Althought cost doesn't actually matter on a Signature Item)

Final stats: +10 Armor, +3 Toughness armor (No Strength Minimum, doesn't hinder casting) that automatically heals 1 Wound per day with no roll, grants 50% immunity to poison and disease, +4 vs. bleeding out, Danger Sense, +2 Notice (that stacks with Alertness), and an extra non-movement action with no MAP that stacks with Quickness. Yeah, so suck it, after I cast Exalted Quickness I'm dropping 6 spells a round with no MAP.
Compare that to:

Reasonable Signature Armor Of Respecting the Power Curve:

Base Item: T-12 Field Medic Armor (65k)
TW Conversion Cost: (6.5k)
Minor: +2 Armor (5k)
Minor: +2 Armor (5k)
Major: Power: Healing (20k)
Major: Large Super-Capacitor (10 PP) (30k)
Major: Edge: Danger Sense (20k)
Major: +1d Vigor (10k)

Total Cost: 161,500 Cr (Althought cost doesn't actually matter on a Signature Item)

Final stats: +10 Armor, +1 Toughness armor (No Strength Minimum, doesn't hinder casting), so not quite as good as the Super armor, although the +1d Vigor makes up for part of the difference. Can try to heal wounds or cure disease/poison 3-4 times a day, more with a supply of e-clips, but each attempt requires a roll and an action, and has to be done within a short window of time. No bonus vs. bleeding out, but again, the Vigor bump helps a little. Has Danger Sense, but no Notice bonus. Not even going to bother with trying to keep up with extra actions (since armor-based quickness wouldn't be Mega and it won't stack anyway) so I'm stuck casting Exalted Quickness myself and casting just 4 spells a round with no MAP.

There you go. There's your game-breaker, and a pretty good example of why some sort of limiter/balancing factor is needed for the high Strain cyber upgrades. And before you say "But it costs more" -- has any character on this site actually paid credits for a Heroic TW/enchanted/super-tech item? We're talking almost exclusively about Patron/Signature items, and credit cost just doesn't factor into the equation as a credible source of balance.

EDIT: I guess these are both Legendary, since Supertech should have one less Major upgrade. Removing the Reinforced Frame and Vigor bonus brings them down to Signature item levels, and the comparison stands.

[Tribe of One]

I think Strain adding to Str Min could work, as that's not going to be easy to work around, and Extra Arms + Caster is the biggest offender here. Someone could still do it, starting with an armor with no Str Min., which Extra Arms would take to 1d10, then use two Minor Mods to take the custom "Reduce Str Min" upgrade (which I think has been approved?) back down to d6. But at least they've had to burn some extra slots to take advantage of the outsized bonus from the cybernetic arms.

[Pender Lumkiss]

This is only supertech, not TW. Strain is a balance on how much can be put in a body, which IS an important consideration. But we are not putting it in a humanoid body here. We are adding a cybernetic eye system (Ranged Data System) to a rifle to be an auto focusing scope. We are adding a weapon to a pair of vibro-vambraces to make a Forearm Integrated Weapon System that is usable by normal folk. We're making an advanced Naruni gun usable only by their RepoBots that has a built in chainsword. Strain is not appropriate because it assumes the limits of the humanoid body. We're adding systems to other items.

How about Strain add to the Minimum Strength of an item. So Strain 1 bumps it up to D6 min if it had none, or up one level if it did. Strain 3 takes a d6 minimum to a d12. Then we can apply reduced weight.

I completely aggree with you. I am just looking at it from a mechnical perspective of how SW works. Str min seems intriguing.

Lets take a look at NG-E4 Plasma Ejector str min d10

• add upgrade edge(major): 1 pt strain bumps it up to a d12( a requirement for range data system)-essentially a scanner device built in
  • Optics Package (1): One or both of the cyborg's eyes are replaced, granting the following: +2 all sight-based Notice checks; thermal imaging and night vision (ignore illumination penalties); 50× magnification for distance; 20× macro lens for up-close detail; glare filters that give a +2 on checks to avoid blinding flashes and related light burst effects. Finally, the Optics Package provides the ability to record still or moving images and store them for later viewing or display. Switching modes is a free action. (Strain 1; 60,000 credits)
  Add upgrade edge(major):1pt strain bumps it up str min to a d12+1, some kind of compensating device built into the scanner with mini gyro adjusters.
  • Range Data System (2): Requiring the Optics Package, this system coordinates various data and integrated systems to help the cyborg compensate for multiple actions, movement, autofire, range, and other factors. Each application of this upgrade offsets two points of penalties for Shooting. (Strain 1; 20,000 credits)
  Add upgrade edge(major): add 1 pt strain, increases str min to a d12+2. mounted monfiliment bayonet
  • integrated vibro knife, str +d6, AP4 MD, 2lbs, 1 pt strain
  Add +2 shooting(2x minor)

So with TW, I could have added alertness, I could have added marksman( or maybe a custome major mod), really no direct translation for a knife(but add a pummel power). Tw would have 1 more major mod.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Moving on...

The mods seem off. I am pretty sure it is the enchanted item cadence. Heroic super trch should be 3 major 2 minor at heroic and 1 extra major at legendary.

Major mods are exempt of the mod can be taken twice rule coverning the minor mods. See here(thanks Soren) http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... de#p462372

The language here seems to be missing a word.
It takes one action to reinsert an e-clip assuming one is handy. Super Capacitors do not additional E-Clip ports, but do require equivalent E-Clips to charge their energy storage matrix. A short E-Clip recharges 5 Power Points instantly. A long E-Clip recharges 10 Power Points instantly. The weapon must still also have a full long E-clip inserted to power the base item. Each 20% of a short E-Clip's capacity is 1 Power Point. Each 10% of long E-Clip's capacity is 1 Power Point. Round fractions down.

What is a long and short e-clip? Where do you get them, how much do they cost?

[High Command]

I think Strain adding to Str Min could work, as that's not going to be easy to work around, and Extra Arms + Caster is the biggest offender here. Someone could still do it, starting with an armor with no Str Min., which Extra Arms would take to 1d10, then use two Minor Mods to take the custom "Reduce Str Min" upgrade (which I think has been approved?) back down to d6. But at least they've had to burn some extra slots to take advantage of the outsized bonus from the cybernetic arms.

ok, so if your primary concern is one system, we ban the ONE system. Then we're not tossing the baby with the bath water. I have no issue saying "you can't add extra arms."

How about we ignore one strain, and add it if its 2 or more? I think the edge requirement is enough to ignore one. Both of you said as much above. So the concern is 2 or more strain.

• Add the equivalent of a Cybernetic Implant to device with a modified version of the Upgrade Edge (Cost: varies per the cost of implant, plus 40,000 for the edge). Subtract 1 from the strain of the cybernetic; the resulting number is the amount of die type increases in the device's base Strength minimum. Weight reduction mods can decrease this. Note that this *can* include the implanted melee and ranged weapon cybernetics as well. Only Power Armor, Robots, Robot Vehicles, and Vehicles may mount items with a MOD trait instead of a weight.
  • Be advised that the Extra Arms implant is unavailable as an option.

[High Command]

Re Mods being off: You're right. I fixed it in the original already, adding the one more mod we always use as the standard for Super-Tech; Less than equivalent TW, more than enchanted.

Novice: Two Minor Qualities
Seasoned: One Major Quality, Two Minor Qualities
Veteran: Two Major Qualities, Two Minor Qualities
Heroic: Three Major Qualities, Two Minor Qualities
Legendary: Four Major Qualities, Two Minor Qualities

Language Fix (including source on E-Clips and recharge rates): It takes one action to reinsert an e-clip assuming one is handy. Super Capacitors do not come with additional E-Clip ports, but do require power from E-Clips to charge their energy storage matrix. A short E-Clip recharges 5 Power Points instantly. A long E-Clip recharges 10 Power Points instantly. The weapon must still also have a full long E-clip inserted to power the base item, once the capacitor are charged. Each 20% of a short E-Clip's capacity is 1 Power Point. Each 10% of long E-Clip's capacity is 1 Power Point. Round fractions down. E-Clip purchase and recharge costs are listed on page 89 of TLPG.

good?

[Pender Lumkiss]

I think Strain adding to Str Min could work, as that's not going to be easy to work around, and Extra Arms + Caster is the biggest offender here. Someone could still do it, starting with an armor with no Str Min., which Extra Arms would take to 1d10, then use two Minor Mods to take the custom "Reduce Str Min" upgrade (which I think has been approved?) back down to d6. But at least they've had to burn some extra slots to take advantage of the outsized bonus from the cybernetic arms.

ok, so if your primary concern is one system, we ban the ONE system. Then we're not tossing the baby with the bath water. I have no issue saying "you can't add extra arms."

How about we ignore one strain, and add it if its 2 or more? I think the edge requirement is enough to ignore one. Both of you said as much above. So the concern is 2 or more strain.

• Add the equivalent of a Cybernetic Implant to device with a modified version of the Upgrade Edge (Cost: varies per the cost of implant, plus 40,000 for the edge). Subtract 1 from the strain of the cybernetic; the resulting number is the amount of die type increases in the device's base Strength minimum. Weight reduction mods can decrease this. Note that this *can* include the implanted melee and ranged weapon cybernetics as well. Only Power Armor, Robots, Robot Vehicles, and Vehicles may mount items with a MOD trait instead of a weight.
  • Be advised that the Extra Arms implant is unavailable as an option.

I get what you are saying, but essentially you are giving super tech improved cyber psychic alignment plus some other ignore strain stuff. I would be willing to see how strain works if it were the inital purposed str min. Another concern is, it would not appear to be commulnitive. Like you could have 5 supertech weapons, items... perhaps not the worst as it would appear supertech cybernetics would only work with the device used.

[High Command]

Add the equivalent of a weapon or piece of personal gear to a device. For every ten pounds (round down) add one die type to the device's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the device.
Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies).

This replaces cybernetics above.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Sig items not limited to powers on any list like TW? Is this true for all sig items. I could see novice powers due to the HJ magic roll, but any power? I am pretty sure the SR setting reccomends weird scientists use tw power list.

Also sorry. I know I am nitpicking and pushing issues. It would be so much easier if I could just not care.

[High Command]

That's true for all Signature Items

[Pender Lumkiss]

Looks like it is all figured out.

[Sparky]

Add the equivalent of a weapon or piece of personal gear to a device. For every ten pounds (round down) add one die type to the device's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the device.

I noticed this rule and while it's fine for personal gear it is restrictive for vehicular grade weapons which are much heavier and generally already have d12 + X for min Strength anyway.

Also, can there be a clarification on what the power requirements are for a vehicular weapon used by power armor? Do you always need a major mod to integrate it with the armor's power supply or only if there is a power?

[Venatus Vinco]

Also, can there be a clarification on what the power requirements are for a vehicular weapon used by power armor? Do you always need a major mod to integrate it with the armor's power supply or only if there is a power?

Power Armor's aren't vehicles. Ergo, no vehicular weapons?

VV

[Sparky]

Also, can there be a clarification on what the power requirements are for a vehicular weapon used by power armor? Do you always need a major mod to integrate it with the armor's power supply or only if there is a power?

Power Armor's aren't vehicles. Ergo, no vehicular weapons?

VV

Uh, all power armor use vehicular weapons. Or can anyway. Size requirement is MOD = SIZE and MIN STR requirement is MOD+1 = STR. I'm not sure I understand.

[Venatus Vinco]

Uh, all power armor use vehicular weapons. Or can anyway. Size requirement is MOD = SIZE and MIN STR requirement is MOD+1 = STR. I'm not sure I understand.

I had no idea that was a rule.

Anyway, I don't think a major mod is needed. Seems to me it would just hook into the power armor power supply same way it would a vehicle. That being said are there any examples of power armors using vehicular energy weapons? If so, do they have a payload listed? Wouldn't they list a payload for "unattached" items if that were needed?

Only the super tech stuff (i.e. powers) needs the major mod to hook the "super thing" (usually a power) into the vehicle or power armor.

VV

[Sparky]

The Triax X-10 Predator has a Medium Laser. The Samson uses a Light Rail Gun.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

So if I understand correctly, you can take a power and add it to a weapon. Add a major mod to power the power off the suit.

If you wanted the mega version of the power would that use the Power Mastery Edge?

[Pender Lumkiss]

Pg 82

Note that the weapons mounted on power armor are from the Heavy and Vehicular Weapons section (see page 90). As well, Power Armor negates up to 4 AP from all ballistic weapons (except rail guns).

Pg 90-91
In Savage Rifts®, the line between personal and heavy weaponry is blurred. Much of what's listed below can conceivably be carried by or mounted onto a suit of power armor, and a suit of robot armor counts as a vehicle, anyway. Weapons below have a Mods listing instead of a Minimum Strength; those wishing to customize their power armor or robot armor can simply substitute
weapons, Mod for Mod (and those using the Science Fiction Companion can also make use of the options listed there). If a hero wants to use one of the following as a hand-carried weapon, it has a Min Str of d12+X, where X equals the Mods needed to install it. The weapon's Mods cannot be more than the character's Size plus one, and such a weapon requires two hands. For example, a Size +1 character needs two hands to use a Mini Rail Gun (Mods 2) and can't use a Light Rail Gun (Mods 3). Such weapons have the Snapfire quality. Weight is 100 lbs. for Mods 1, doubled for each +1 (200 lbs. for Mods 2, 400 lbs. for Mods 3, and so on). In situations where weapons are dual linked, they are fired simultaneously as one system at +1 to hit and +2 damage; quad linked grants +2 to hit and +4 damage. All of the listed weapons do Mega Damage.

[High Command]

That's actually a hold over from the cybernetic implant (which lists combat cyborg). And yes VV, Power Armor can mount vehicle scale weapons up to their size in Mods.

But given this is for combi-weapons, I think I'll remove the bit about MOD based weapons. You can use one as the base weapon, but not add ons. Makes it cleaner. Thus you could grab a Railgun, add a chainsword and an ion rifle to it as major mods, and have a really cool multi-weapon for your SAMAS that works at all engagement ranges.

As for the power issue - that is ALWAYS only for stat line weapons. Powers are based off Power Points. It was decided that anything else was too much. So you will have the need to recharge the powers themselves, even if the weapons (the ion blaster in the above example) wouldn't need power because the power armor provides it. I'll try to make that more clear.

[Venatus Vinco]

As for the power issue - that is ALWAYS only for stat line weapons. Powers are based off Power Points. It was decided that anything else was too much. So you will have the need to recharge the powers themselves, even if the weapons (the ion blaster in the above example) wouldn't need power because the power armor provides it. I'll try to make that more clear.

Right. Forgot about that. So really there is no major mod needed to hook a super tech weapon to a vehicle (power armor) power supply? Instead you need that major mod to build in some power points for any powers the weapon might use? If there are no powers then the super tech weapon attaches to the supply as normal? Right?
VV

[High Command]

Right. Powers work exclusively from Power Points. If its hooked to something with a power supply, the weapon itself can be hooked to it like normal. It'd be something your Operator would need to do, but still. That is a function of technology, not super-tech. A power link cable is not super-high-tech.

[Pender Lumkiss]

So for my mount mountaineer I can have a vehicle laser.
Add major mod bolt power with a heat or plasma trapping. Add a major mod for mega, then for free have unlimited ppts because I hook it into the vehicle power supply?
Umm I think it should still be a major mod for this.

[High Command]

No, you start with a base vehicle laser. You add a trapping to it with as mod. Cool. Its stats are still the vehicle laser, now with the trapping change. It was previously powered by the power plant of the vehicle. It is STILL powered by the power plant of the vehicle. Now if you want to add Smite to that laser and call it "Super-Mode", that needs its own Power Points and Capacitor. But shooting the laser without accessing that "Super-Mode" doesn't need PP. You paid for that with the mod. If you built in the marksman edge and rock and roll to it, you could access those without using PPs. But Super-Mode (a power) would require PP. No extra Mod needed for hooking the basic weapon to the vehicle since that is a part of it being a vehicle weapon.

[Pender Lumkiss]

No, you start with a base vehicle laser. You add a trapping to it with as mod. Cool. Its stats are still the vehicle laser, now with the trapping change. It was previously powered by the power plant of the vehicle. It is STILL powered by the power plant of the vehicle. Now if you want to add Smite to that laser and call it "Super-Mode", that needs its own Power Points and Capacitor. But shooting the laser without accessing that "Super-Mode" doesn't need PP. You paid for that with the mod. If you built in the marksman edge and rock and roll to it, you could access those without using PPs. But Super-Mode (a power) would require PP. No extra Mod needed for hooking the basic weapon to the vehicle since that is a part of it being a vehicle weapon.

Is there a major mod for hooking the smite into the vehicle power source effectivly making it unlimited?

[High Command]

No

[Ndreare]

Vehicle weapons are not powered by the vehicle once they get TW modified. Instead it cost 10 PPE per reload. So with that in mind it would cost the normally power point cost of Smite in addition to the 10 PPE to reload the TW weapon.

I would consider adding the Major mod of +10 PPE (take it multiple times) that regenerates on its own at a Ley Line to pay for the Smite Power. Then as long as you swing by Ley Lines now and then you are golden.

[Freemage]

See, this is the core problem we're having with 'Super-Tech'. We didn't define, at the start, if it was simply bleeding-edge (but still mundane) technology, or if it was actually meant to be just barely on the other side of the mundane/supernatural line, as a more stable version of Weird Science. Instead, we just dropped the term Super Tech on the board, and everyone assumed we were all on the same page about what that meant and entails.

If mundane:

• Should not need PPE to activate (even for Edges)
• Unaffected by exalted dispel or drain PPE
• Can be used by characters who cannot channel PPE
• Cannot have actual Powers--those require supernatural energy
• MIGHT have a highly limited number of available mods that would use some of the mechanics of Powers for targeting and resistance (mostly in the direct-damage category, like blast or burst, but others could possibly be worked out), but these would not be Powers-as-such

If supernatural:

• Require PPE to activate
• Affected by exalted dispel or drain PPE
• Can be used by characters who cannot channel PPE, but must use an internal supply of it for charging up, as well as activating Powers
• Can use Powers, powered and maintained by PPE as normal

[Venatus Vinco]

Freemage is probably right, I would prefer a mundane approach.

VV

[Freemage]

Freemage is probably right, I would prefer a mundane approach.

VV

Of course, I'm not sure how many existing items would need to be retconned or grandfathered in because of a ruling in that direction.

[Sparky]

I do like the mundane approach myself, for what it's worth. You could still add "powers" and use +PP mods too. Powers that can be super-science mundane versions and +PP mods become capacitors that recharge from the vehicle/power armor in the same way as a TW item would, you just don't need a ley line so no infinite uses.

[Freemage]

I do like the mundane approach myself, for what it's worth. You could still add "powers" and use +PP mods too. Powers that can be super-science mundane versions and +PP mods become capacitors that recharge from the vehicle/power armor in the same way as a TW item would, you just don't need a ley line so no infinite uses.

Except regular vehicles ARE infinite power sources for their weapons (at least, effectively). A Laser Cannon hooked up to a Big Boss engine keeps going indefinitely, firing shot after shot against the enemy. A TW weapon, OTOH, hooked up to a TW Zone Ranger, will quickly deplete the PPE tank of the Ranger (30 PPE in the tank, 10 PPE to recharge a TW Vehicular Weapon). And you can't hook up a TW weapon to a non-TW Big Boss; it'll just sit there, unable to use all that weird electricity you're trying to put through it. Interestingly, you CAN hook up a mundane Laser Cannon to a TW Zone Ranger, and it works just fine.

That's why we need to draw that dividing line--it should either be powered with mundane energy (and thus, not able to invoke supernatural abilities), or powered with magical energy (and have to deal with the much lower load limits).

There's several Powers, as I noted, that can provide mechanics for a mundane ability--for instance, burst is a fine basis for a flamethrower, and stun could be an electrical or sonic weapon of some sort. But they'd be totally mundane, and when not part of vehicular armament, would have an ammo cost and payload limit.

[Venatus Vinco]

Freemage,

What would be your proposed super-tech "power list" ?

VV

[High Command]

Okay, first of all, I had a separate power list, people hated it. TW power list was deemed good enough up thread, why is not good enough now?

Super-Tech Statements

• Super-tech Devices with Powers are affected by dispel; Exalted Dispel works as normal for devices with powers. "Some strange EM interference has jammed the device!"
• Power Point reserves (whether E-Clip or Capacitor) are affected by Drain PP and its Mega version. "Probably some interference by exotic particles."
• Super-tech does NOT qualify for Master of Magic OR Master Psionics. The only way to get a Mega Power is to use Power Mastery. "This isn't Magic, it's SCIENCE!"
• Stat line weapons function off E-Clips and Conventional power sources. "A gun is a gun is a gun. Cold Gun, Plasma Gun, Laser Gun, Ion Gun. They are all GUNS."
• If the weapon is a trapped power, then it's pretty obvious which is which. "Whoa, you wrap an electrical current around exotic particles to make a net of sorts? Genius!"
• ALL of them are subject to Technical Difficulties instead of any kind of arcane power failure. "Blasted solder came loose! That's gonna take hours!"
• All operate off other skills than an arcane skill. "I'll use this sensor array to activate the hyper-zoom!"
• Supertech can allow you to change trappings of stat-line weapons, Add minor bonuses to damage and to the skill used, and add items that approximate edges. None of these things change its power source. "This right here is an E-Clip boys and girls. Look at it, love it. They cost 5000 credits a pop, so you'd best keep up with them you pukes. And that's for your sidearm. Do you get me?" "We get you sir!"

That has been the same way every step of the way, so I don't get this "sudden" redefinition - which btw is silly (go drink!). A vehicle grade laser canon that gets a +2 to damage from two minor mods, the rock and roll edge (auto-stabilization gyros), the Marksman Edge (Targeting laser), and weight reduction is still a stat line vehicle laser. It is Super-Tech, and harder to fix if it hits TD, but its power source is unchanged. In this regard they are kinda like enchanted items instead of TW. They do not require PP for these features. But they also don't become unlimited like enchanted items do - hence they need a power source. And a called shot to the power cable shuts it down until repaired (at -2, cause Supertech). For personal weapons, this is an E-Clip. For vehicle Weapons it's a vehicle grade power source (cyborg, power armor, robot, etc).

Adding Powers is where you start worrying about the super experimental aspect. And note, adding powers requires adding a power source - nothing is free. That power source operates separate from the one of the stat line weapon. It can be charged from the same port, but its power source is separate. Think of this as a scope or supercharger mounted on the laser with its own battery. By nature these are highly experimental devices that push the edge of what technology can do. They operate as powers for the most part. Except they are also subject to Technical Difficulties. If you want a fail on the skill die effect, use Weird Science's Arcane fail results. It is in recharging the Power Points that the personal scale stat line weapons and Powers overlap - you need an E-Clip. This is an action and cost tax on recharging Super-Tech.

Given that these elements are clearly defined and easily understood, I see no reason to make them like TW when in fact they are meant to be more reliable and products of science, not a finite charge of magic. The power source for powers are limited in scope by the nature of them being powers.

For the record, I know this potentially messes up a few older weapons like VV's plasma cannon. But the fix is simple enough and can be handled by he and the GM easily enough.

[Sparky]

Vehicles supply infinite power but not infinite power levels. That's what capacitors are for. An engine can provide x amps till the end of time but if 1.5x amps are needed to energize a power then you need a capacitor.

[High Command]

The concern with powers is that unlimited PPs is dangerous in the extreme - the action and cost tax is a mitigation of that. Otherwise all we'd have is a variation of the exact same thing in every other creation style - a generator that recharges over time with no ability to fast charge (unlike TW which can be fast loaded by a TW on a ley line). Effectively a Weird Science Gizmo built into an item. While that is an option, we all decided pretty early we didn't want that. That tide seems to be turning, to my dismay.

[Venatus Vinco]

Vehicles supply infinite power but not infinite power levels. That's what capacitors are for. An engine can provide x amps till the end of time but if 1.5x amps are needed to energize a power then you need a capacitor.

Don't we do "capacitors" now by asking the tech item to have a base of Power Points that needs to be recharged?

I think I am losing the point with all these distinctions and hair splits.

Let me review everything with High Command and come up with some sort of finality on this issue. I don't want us to spend another quarter gnawing on house rules.

VV

[Sparky]

Sorry, I guess I am not following what the arguement is. I thought I was supporting HC's point. I'll have to go back and read through everything myself I guess. Disregard ths stuff about capacitors.

[High Command]

No, you are. I was just explaining what we were up against lol

Freemage's concern is that we have to have ONE approach to SuperTech. I disagree. If dealing with minor Mods and edges, you can do that more or less mundane. But if you want to include powers, then you have to use the power rules, except that all SuperTech all have to be built so that mundanes can use them with alternate skill use (shooting, K/Electronics, etc). The only concern is recharging PPs.

There are two ways to handle it, and neither is wrong. So I guess we need to choose now and forever which it will be:
1. Use it as I have written, use short and long E-clips. This avoids the issue entirely of vehicle plants. Note you could easily slap an E-Clip port in your power armor's arm and pull from your utility belt to reload your Power Armor's Supertech Supercharged Ion Gun (which includes the Bolt Power with an Ion Trapping) which has a built in 10 PP Power capacitor. Or it could power directly off the E-Clip - your choice.

2. Go to a regenerating power source for Powers that otherwise acts like a Weird Science Gizmo (regenerating 1/hr). Implanted edges can improve this.

I'm a fan of 1.

[Pender Lumkiss]

I do like the mundane approach myself, for what it's worth. You could still add "powers" and use +PP mods too. Powers that can be super-science mundane versions and +PP mods become capacitors that recharge from the vehicle/power armor in the same way as a TW item would, you just don't need a ley line so no infinite uses.

Except regular vehicles ARE infinite power sources for their weapons (at least, effectively). A Laser Cannon hooked up to a Big Boss engine keeps going indefinitely, firing shot after shot against the enemy. A TW weapon, OTOH, hooked up to a TW Zone Ranger, will quickly deplete the PPE tank of the Ranger (30 PPE in the tank, 10 PPE to recharge a TW Vehicular Weapon). And you can't hook up a TW weapon to a non-TW Big Boss; it'll just sit there, unable to use all that weird electricity you're trying to put through it. Interestingly, you CAN hook up a mundane Laser Cannon to a TW Zone Ranger, and it works just fine.

That's why we need to draw that dividing line--it should either be powered with mundane energy (and thus, not able to invoke supernatural abilities), or powered with magical energy (and have to deal with the much lower load limits).

There's several Powers, as I noted, that can provide mechanics for a mundane ability--for instance, burst is a fine basis for a flamethrower, and stun could be an electrical or sonic weapon of some sort. But they'd be totally mundane, and when not part of vehicular armament, would have an ammo cost and payload limit.

Hey Freemage, Powers seem to run off special capacitors that simulate ppts but are mundane in nature. Just as a book keeping method to determine how often this special ability/feature can be used.

Also I would need to point out a vehicular laser cannon needs a power supply which the tw zone ranger could no longer supply.

[Freemage]

No, you are. I was just explaining what we were up against lol

Freemage's concern is that we have to have ONE approach to SuperTech. I disagree. If dealing with minor Mods and edges, you can do that more or less mundane. But if you want to include powers, then you have to use the power rules, except that all SuperTech all have to be built so that mundanes can use them with alternate skill use (shooting, K/Electronics, etc). The only concern is recharging PPs.

There are two ways to handle it, and neither is wrong. So I guess we need to choose now and forever which it will be:
1. Use it as I have written, use short and long E-clips. This avoids the issue entirely of vehicle plants. Note you could easily slap an E-Clip port in your power armor's arm and pull from your utility belt to reload your Power Armor's Supertech Supercharged Ion Gun (which includes the Bolt Power with an Ion Trapping) which has a built in 10 PP Power capacitor. Or it could power directly off the E-Clip - your choice.

2. Go to a regenerating power source for Powers that otherwise acts like a Weird Science Gizmo (regenerating 1/hr). Implanted edges can improve this.

I'm a fan of 1.

The portion I bolded is, indeed, my principle concern. The 'action tax' of changing out an eclip is, frankly, virtually nil, and the 'cost tax' of extra eclips is done with after your first firefight (whereupon you will have more eclips than you could possibly burn through in the course of a single battle, just from looting the fallen enemy).

The difficulties of swapping out clips might be something that comes up situationally, but nowhere near as often as Power-Wielders have to worry about Power Point management off a Ley Line (or psychics, regardless).

And yes, since it's come up, I do feel we need a consistent system for the whole of the thing, rather than deciding which elements are mundane and which ones are almost-but-not-really-magical, and then deciding what that category actually entails.

I was asked which Powers I think would be suitable for replication by 'mundane' means.

Blast
Blind
Bolt
Burst
Damage Field
Deflection
Entangle
Fear
Obscure
Smite
Stun

Honestly, I'm more inclined to ditch Bolt and Blast, instead putting Trappings on conventional weapons. So if you want a flame-spitter, instead of giving it the bolt power, you'd take an Ion Gun and give it a Fire Trapping. Within the context of Trappings, I'm much more comfortable allowing such a weapon to simply use double shots from an Eclip to get the benefit of combustion or additional AP.

Certain other Powers represent abilities that are certainly replicable by tech (Darksight, Farsight, non-Teleport movement Powers all come to mind), BUT, the mechanics of the actual Powers aren't really a good fit to how a mundane technological item should work (most notably the whole notion of them having a short-term duration--Armor should be something that's always active, if it's truly mundane, and for that we have the Armor Minor Mod). As an example, Light doesn't just illuminate an area--it causes a spot or object to glow with that radiance, for a set period of time, possibly extended by power-point expenditure. That's just not a good fit for mundane tech.

[Venatus Vinco]

Okay,

I have combined High Command's original draft with feedback from above and my own thoughts on the matter.

TLDR: This is Weird Science with TW-style upgrades. Power Points are needed for powers (i.e. Blast) but other advantages (edges, bonuses, etc.) are always on representing the advanced nature of the item. The trade off for this is less upgrade slots. Power Points are not related to PPE/ISP in anyway and are simply a means of accounting. These rules not only cover making items but also allow for a Wild Card to make them like we did for Enchanted Items and like TWs have been able to do all along.

VV

---

Item Creation: Experimental Super Technology Items

Rifts is, by Sean Patrick Fannon’s definition, an over the top kitchen sink setting. As a result we have multiple worlds and genres mashed together to create a world where anything is possible. In addition to elements of magic and fantasy we also have science fiction - robots, power armor, laser weapons and more. According to Arthur C. Clarke, “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. Thus, advanced alien races, Coalition Researchers, Triax facilities, or just a genius kid in her parents basement have the ability to create technological items that function like magic. They aren’t powered by ISP or PPE but they do have something unrepeatable about them - if not magic at least unexplainable to the untrained.

These rules, usable by Wild Cards, GMs, and players building Signature Items, provide a framework for creating super advanced technology items. They are completely trapped in “science” and stand apart from technowizardry or Enchanted item construction rules. Most notably, these items do not make use of I.S.P. or P.P.E. and are not considered in anyway “arcane” .

Arcane Background Weird Science
Super-Scientists are weird scientists using Arcane Background (Weird Science). Rather than involving themselves in matters arcane, Super-Scientists delve into the cutting edge of technology, engineering, and other sciences. Their trappings must be based on advanced scientific and technological concepts. Those with Arcane Background (Weird Science) are not magical and cannot use Techno-Wizardry items or benefit from ley lines. However, they can receive cybernetics with no penalty to their abilities.

Creation Process
Any Super-Scientist can make super-tech items. Crafting an Super-tech item is a fairly straightforward process, though not quick.

Super-Scientists are limited to their power list, just like Techno-Wizards. All super-tech items suffer from technical difficulties and are either -4 to be repaired, or -2 to be repaired and the item must have a Quirk or other Minor Hindrance.

Signature Items are not limited to any particular power list but still require the Item Validation process and suffer the aforementioned penalties to Repair.

Some super-science items use Power Points. These are not the same as PPE/ISP and are not interchangeable with them. These Power Points represent the unique power source of the item (for example the “phase generator” in a phase technology weapon) and are used to operate certain special features.

Preparation: The Super-Scientist needs parts costing one-third of the item’s initial (list) price. The procedure takes 6d12 hours for personal weapons or gear, or 2d6 weeks for larger installations, such as furniture, vehicles or their components, siege gear, or building parts (such as super-tech vault doors and super-tech alarm systems for the castle armory).

Base Super-Technology Item
Not all super-tech items have powers or extra trappings. Some are simply exotic technological swords. Choose an item that has the appropriate effect and say it works by super-science instead of its base item's power source. Generally this works with all melee and ranged weapons, armor, and even vehicles, power armor, robots and robot vehicles. A hover cycle might become an Anti Gravity Skimmer that can operate in space just as easily as on the planet, etc. Cost is based on the original item. Other items will have to be adjudicated by the GM for cost.

• Build Roll: The Super-Scientist makes a roll using the lower of Knowledge (Electronics), Knowledge (Engineering), or the Weird Science arcane skill; this is the standard roll for Super-tech Item design and is called a Build roll. On a failure, the time and parts are wasted, but on a success the Super-tech item is complete. If the Craftsman gets a raise, he may add one Minor Upgrade (see below). Note these upgrades are "always on" for no additional power cost.

Minor Upgrade
Minor Upgrades add a small benefit to a super-tech item. Adding a Minor Upgrade to a super-tech item costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 3d12 hours. Super-tech items are limited to a number of slots based on the super-scientist's rank, shown in the chart below.

• Novice: Two Minor Qualities
  Seasoned: One Major Quality, Two Minor Qualities
  Veteran: Two Major Qualities, Two Minor Qualities
  Heroic: Three Major Qualities, Two Minor Qualities
  Legendary: Four Major, Two Minor Qualities

They may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades, but an item can only have the same upgrade twice. As above, a failure wastes the time and materials, a success installs the upgrade, and a raise grants a Minor Upgrade (as long as the item can take another).

• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
  +1 damage to a weapon.
  +2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
  +1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
  Add one small energy cell that provides 5 Power Points. †
  Halve the weight of the item (reduce to one quarter if taken twice; reduce to one eighth if the item got a raise during creation).
  Apply a Trapping to the item.
  Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM.

Major Upgrade
Starting at Seasoned Rank, Super-Scientists can add more powerful abilities to super-tech items. Modification takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below). The Super-Scientists makes a Build roll (lowest of Knowledge (Electronics), Knowledge (Engineering), and the Weird Science arcane skill) but at −4 for a Major Upgrade. Failure wastes the time and parts; success installs the upgrade; on a raise, the Super-Scientists may choose to add a Minor Upgrade and then only if the Super-tech item has a space to add one.

• Add a power to item (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of power).* # &
  Add an Edge to item (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge).* &
  +1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
  Add one large energy cell that provides 10 Power Points. (Cost: 30,000 credits). †
  Add the equivalent of a personal weapon or piece of personal gear to a item. For every ten pounds (round down) add one die type to the item's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the item.
  Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies).

* The Super-Scientist can only install powers and Edges of his Rank or less. Embedded powers must be from the Super-Scientist's powers list (though he doesn’t have to actually know them). For five times the cost, the power activates as part of another action (an attack roll for a weapon or roll to activate another power) using the Trait result of the primary action as its own activation. The user must still spend Power Points before making the roll, and a failure on the primary action means the power fails as well.
† Energy cells represent the advanced power source (quantum singularity, fusion chamber, flux capacitor, etc.) needed to use any powers built into the item. These are integral to the item. When exhausted they must be recharged by hooking into an external power source (reactor, e-clip charger, etc.). Small energy cells recharge 1 Power Point per 30 minutes, while large cells gain 1 Power Point per 15 minutes. Fast charging is possible when anyone with a nuclear power source hooks a Super-Tech Item up to that power Source with a Universal Energy Link cable (available from Northern Gun) or a jury-rigged power cable wired to an empty E-Clip (Repair at -2 to craft). They can then use Repair (at -4), or the Super Science Skill, to quickly recharge their Super-Tech Item. If a character is hooked to a nuclear power source with her Super-Tech Item, she may take an action to roll her Repair (at -4) or Super-Science skill; the result equals the number of Power Points she can draw and add to her item's PP Pool for that round.
# Availability of powers is limited to the super-scientist's power list.
& Master of Magic is not generally available for Super-Tech items. Instead use the Power Mastery edge (see house rules).

Example Item

CP-29x CS Plasma Pulse Assault Rifle
An experimental anti-infantry weapon created by Coalition Munitions Technologies (CMT), this plasma rifle features an advanced Gyro-Stability System that automatically compensates for recoil and a smart gun system that adjusts aim to increase accuracy. Optionally, the operator can switch to blast mode in order to take out multiple armored targets at once - either in a medium or large burst template! Of course, CMT wants their weapon back. Any unauthorized personal using this weapon are considered to have the Wanted (CS) hindrance. As an experimental weapon, Repair all rolls are done at -2.

• Plasma Pulse: 3d10 (Mega, Plasma. ROF: 3)
• Plasma Claymore Anti-Infantry Blast: Can use the blast power for a cost of 3-7 Power Points depending on what mode is selected. Blasts have the plasma trapping.
• Payload: 48 regular blasts and 10 Power Points
• Weight: 70
• Special: No recoil penalty and +2 to shooting if the user doesn't move in a turn.
• Dual Plasma Capacitors: Gives 10 supercharged shots for the Plasma Claymore mode. Recharges at 1 shot per 30 minutes when hooked to a nuclear power supply.
• Strength Minimum: d12

Augmentations

Augmentations: 3 Major, 2 Minor
Base Item

• NG-E15 Pulse Plasma Ejector
• 3d10 (Mega, Plasma. ROF: 3)
• Payload: 48
• Weight: 70

Major: Plasma Claymore Blast (Add a Power: Blast w/plasma trapping, +1 Power Point to activate, uses Shooting)
Major: Gyro-stability System (Rock & Roll Edge) Always on
Major: Smart Gun System (Marksman Edge) Always on
Minor: Integrated Plasma Capacitor (+5 Power Points, recharges 1 per 30 minutes when hooked to power supply)
Minor: Integrated Plasma Capacitor (+5 Power Points, recharges 1 per 30 minutes when hooked to power supply)

[High Command]

I'll sign off on this; VV check our chat, have a few other items there.

[Sparky]

There does appear to be a typo or a contradiction regarding major upgrades. Under minor upgrades it says you get a major slot at Seasoned but under Major Upgrades it says you can add them starting at Veteran.

[Freemage]

Okay, I think I'll sign off on it too. You've at least made a game effort at addressing my concerns, and the recharge rules feel about right.

[High Command]

There does appear to be a typo or a contradiction regarding major upgrades. Under minor upgrades it says you get a major slot at Seasoned but under Major Upgrades it says you can add them starting at Veteran.

It's a hold over from Enchanted Items where the language came from - just a typo

I'm not 100% happy, but I can live with it, and more importantly, it maintains that edges and minor mods just work, which is one of the things I wanted.

[Corrigon]

so can this be used by species that can't use magic or psionics like Grackletooths?

[Venatus Vinco]

so can this be used by species that can't use magic or psionics like Grackletooths?

On our site, I would say yes. Although I would still stand by the single AB rule (i.e. you can't take this an AB Psionics for example).

VV

[High Command]

I'd agree with both of those statements. Wierd Science doesn't use PPE as a general rule. Actually the thought of a Grackletooth with a lab coat is hilarious. "They told me I was crazy to want to put a quantum splicer on a rail gun. Who's crazy now!?"

It would definitely hit the only AB tick though, and I'm not sure I'd lt it dual AB ever.

[Pender Lumkiss]

so can this be used by species that can't use magic or psionics like Grackletooths?

On our site, I would say yes. Although I would still stand by the single AB rule (i.e. you can't take this an AB Psionics for example).

VV

Actually by VV's flavor text, magic is science we do not understand. Ultra tech and super science is just another form of magic, so no. The general sentiment is that grackles cannot use power points.

[Venatus Vinco]

Restricted Paths: A Grackle Tooth has no capacity for magic or psionics. They cannot take any Arcane Background using PPE or ISP, nor any Iconic Framework that includes it.

The proposed arcane background specifically does not use ISP or PPE. If the Grackletooth said "no arcane backgrounds" period than I would go with that. But that's not what it says.

The mention of Magic in the flavour text only says it appears that way to the untrained - which implies it is not magic despite what it may look like.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

Restricted Paths: A Grackle Tooth has no capacity for magic or psionics. They cannot take any Arcane Background using PPE or ISP, nor any Iconic Framework that includes it.

The proposed arcane background specifically does not use ISP or PPE. If the Grackletooth said "no arcane backgrounds" period than I would go with that. But that's not what it says.

The mention of Magic in the flavour text only says it appears that way to the untrained - which implies it is not magic despite what it may look like.

VV

There is no need for the designers to have to say all arcane backgrounds. Why? In the setting all arcane backgrounds use either PPE or ISP. Having created a cleaver bypass to this setting rule we have created a loop hole for anyone looking for the ability to use powers. Hey GM can I take the no isp racial hindrence? Can I take the no ppe racial hindrance, great because it does not matter I am going to to take an arcane background that uses neither of those words.

like you said, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

so being barred from super science weird science background would count as it is indistinguishable from magic.
Grackle says no magic

[Sparky]

I don't see it as a loophole for what ig's worth. For one thing as I understand it super science powers don't count as magical despite its appearance.

Besides, even if it was a loophole there are custom IF's, powers and even characters that have prezel shaped loopholes so why is this not worth considering?

[High Command]

Grackleteeth also don't pursue scientific pursuits, so I can accept no Grackletooth Super Scientists. Honestly it looks like something the GM and player are going to have to look at individually anyway. If the race doesn't have a strong scientific basis, then Super-Science won't be a thing. If they can have one type of AB, they can have Super Science. If they can't have either type, then you need to look at the fluff. If its a custom race, then the player is going to have to put in the work to develop said race past a blurb.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Why wouldn't super science count as magic? I am pretty sure the fluff VV gave is that some could regard it as a form of magic.

So I could create agracktooth with arcane background super powers and instead of using ppe, I can call it mutagenic points? The setting has predetermined what power points are called.

[Venatus Vinco]

If these created items count as magic than this approach is dead in the water. The whole point is to create souped up tech based items using advanced engineering and cutting edge technology - not magic.

There is already a method to do the above using magic: technowizardy

So how does one create devices that approximate powers but don't use power points?

There are examples, like grenades. They function mechanically the same as Blast power but are not magic and don't use power points.

Flame throwers, are essentially a technological version of Burst. No power points and not "magical" .

Personal Forcefields, are the armor power retrapped as a tech device (or maybe body armor but it's all just armor).

How do we make a system for making weapons and equipment that act like powers but don't use power points?

An active camouflage stealth suit (invisbility)? A phase Field (intangibility)?

What about devices that grant edges? Scopes can give marksman, cybernetics already provide tech base edges added to the human body.

What about improvements that just show better qualities and materials like +1 to damage or more armor. No one is suggesting a Katana is magic just because it has the "minor improvement" of +2 damage. SR even points to this when talking about body armor having embedded Toughness due to "advanced materials" , yet this doesn't make standard body armor mystical.

And how do we do all that so it is consistent with the whole minor/major improvement scheme already in use in our universe? If there are no power points, what method do we use to regulate these abilities so they don't become over powered?

Weird Science looked like a good Avenue for this, but if power points = magic then a different approach is needed.

Savage Worlds is proving vexing when it comes to just making cool tech items without just pulling them out nowhere.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

If these created items count as magic than this approach is dead in the water. The whole point is to create souped up tech based items using advanced engineering and cutting edge technology - not magic.

There is already a method to do the above using magic: technowizardy

So how does one create devices that approximate powers but don't use power points?

There are examples, like grenades. They function mechanically the same as Blast power but are not magic and don't use power points.

Flame throwers, are essentially a technological version of Burst. No power points and not "magical" .

Personal Forcefields, are the armor power retrapped as a tech device (or maybe body armor but it's all just armor).

How do we make a system for making weapons and equipment that act like powers but don't use power points?

An active camouflage stealth suit (invisbility)? A phase Field (intangibility)?

What about devices that grant edges? Scopes can give marksman, cybernetics already provide tech base edges added to the human body.

What about improvements that just show better qualities and materials like +1 to damage or more armor. No one is suggesting a Katana is magic just because it has the "minor improvement" of +2 damage. SR even points to this when talking about body armor having embedded Toughness due to "advanced materials" , yet this doesn't make standard body armor mystical.

And how do we do all that so it is consistent with the whole minor/major improvement scheme already in use in our universe? If there are no power points, what method do we use to regulate these abilities so they don't become over powered?

Weird Science looked like a good Avenue for this, but if power points = magic then a different approach is needed.

Savage Worlds is proving vexing when it comes to just making cool tech items without just pulling them out nowhere.

VV

To be clear I was just talking about the AB itself being taken by a race that cannot take any edge or frame work that has ppe and isp. To me the intent in the setting is that arcane background are not allowed even though not explicitly said. Otherwise any one could create a grackle with spell casting but call the power points anything other than ppe and isp. That stuff is well defined in the setting.

I don't really have any issue taking a plasma weapon, and modding it up using major and minor mods 2 minor 3 major and if it suited the designer swapping out or adding an entangle power that runs right off the normal eclip, because basically the plasma weapon is a bolt power ( I realize it has different damage). It would use shooting and run right off the same e-clip.

I think that would work fine for most personal ranged weapons. What gets complicated are clost combat like a vibro sword, and armor. Neither have e-clips and so what do you run them off of? Minor and major mods with 5 and 10 ppts seem fine to me.
Maybe armors and melee weapons shouldn't have powers? Just keep them to the realm of ranged weapons?

Mostly I wish there was some PR fluff that illustrates how it was iconic to the setting. Maybe it is just small minor enhancements that occur? I really don't know and I have not been able to find the source for what we are trying to translate.

[Venatus Vinco]

What's iconic?

Overall, that crazy powerful technology is part of the setting. Things that allow a person to do the extraordinary. Within that there are alien races and advanced societies that can create even cooler stuff (Golden Age gear, The Glitterboy, Triax, ARCHIE 3, later we see Naruni, and then Phase World).

Specifically, the Operator (Rifts Ultimate Edition, page 91 and one of the original OCCs of Rifts) has the iconic ability to create what I would call "minor upgrades" . So this is certainly missing.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

You know what, as long as their is not a rash of grackle players wanting ab mutagenics or some other created ab that does not use isp or ppe I can live with it. If I have too I'll live with grackletooths being able to take this specific version of ab weird science. But let them know they will be targeted first.

[Freemage]

The difference is between a Grackletooth being able to have the AB itself, and one being able to use items created or modded by the AB.

The latter means he still has to go out and find someone to build him the stuff and pay/barter for it. The former pretty much ditches the downside of playing a Grackletooth, because it gives him open access to Powers just like any other Race.

I'm fine with the latter--broadly, I think AB: Weird Science devices, which contain their own internal power sources, are acceptable for 'restricted' races to use, since they don't have to personally funnel the PPE. But actually constructing them should be off-limits with the same bounds.

(Mind you, I still am not sure why the idea of an Edge that tags off of Gadgeteer wasn't capable of filling this role, and thereby allowing both Weird Scientists and Psi-Operators to accomplish this goal, but... I dunno. I'm getting exhausted and cranky about this discussion at this point.)

[Sparky]

I understand the argument about not allowing Grackletooths access to powers but given that super-science isn't actually magic doesn't that reduce the advantage of having access? Sure it would be handy to have a device that allows teleportation or some such but offensive powers such as bolt or blast still won't count as magical for monsters immune to non-magical attacks.

[High Command]

I think the first one would be looked at as "oh cool" the second, third and fourth would be looked at as problems.

[Venatus Vinco]

Okay,

I was inclined to leave this alone for a while. But what about a different approach, just a series of small tweaks.

1) An edge (or edge chain) that allows you to add major and minor improvements to a technological device - except for Powers. Keeping the "always on" trade off and limited upgrade slots. Prerequisites would be repair, k/engineering, etc.

Replace loss of powers with Major called "Add a Mod" allowing adding mods from the Sci-Fi Companion to vehicles, robots, and power armor that have available slots.

This edge makes cool tech items and gives the Operator classes flavour that is currently missing from classic. It also leaves our super tech rules basically in tact but removes the power points issue.

2) A TW Major improvement that allows non magic users to use TW devices. If any device with power points is considered magical, this is best.

There is already a way to use Spirit to activate it, or another skill for increased cost. So that's done.

If needed you can call it "super alien device epsilon" but it is functionally TW.

This is what our super tech rules did anyway by reducing mod slots. Used up one for mundane use.

3) Leave Weird Science alone. It was left out as an option for a reason.

To me this is cleaner. Some edges, some GM approved mods, and we've got the ability to make items and let characters do it too.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

Let me point out first that I am trying to help.

1) these edges exist: rich and super rich. The mods from sci-fi are great, I gave the 13th a zone ranger which if so desired could pick from them. I don't think you need a special edge to access them. The PAs seem to indicate you can built your own PA using them. Maybe just specifically calling out, Hey these are available.

Also this approach is not consistant with how we did enchanted items, and how TW items are done.

2) given that supertech lacks a major mod when compared to TW items, to me it is functionally tw with that mod no arcane background needed.

3) I have absolutely no problem helping some edges and IFs that need it. Weird science definitely needs some love as well as the mind melter. Adding a bit about ingnoring strain penalties to casting is awesome. A great trade off for not being able to access TW items unless said item has its own ppts.

Creating supertech or ultratech(not sure what the actual name is these days) is fine. Defining new ways that ultratech items can recharge that are comparable to rifts is fun.

My main point of contention is that in doing so we created a version of weird science that no longer uses ppe because they had to be so cutting edge. To me power points are power points no matter how you trap them. The setting has defined power points as ppe or isp.
I would have no problem with operators, psi operators, or weird scientists all being able to create and mod/repair supertech items. We would need to find 3 probably mundane skills, like repair, kn electronics, and kn engineering. Just house rule supertech item creation into the background, and 2 mars frameworks.

That being said, and harking back to VVs point. Creating a supertech professional professional edge that changes the ppts in the weird scientist arcane background from ppe to eclip might be a good way to go. But I don't think you need an edge to create supertech items themselves, as it is not apperent TW requires it, and enchanted itms does not require it either. You just needed the right arcane background. But since supertech is not arcane, don't require it to have one in the build roll.

[Freemage]

1) these edges exist: rich and super rich. The mods from sci-fi are great, I gave the 13th a zone ranger which if so desired could pick from them. I don't think you need a special edge to access them. The PAs seem to indicate you can built your own PA using them. Maybe just specifically calling out, Hey these are available.

I think VV's proposal was allowing a Major Super-Tech Mod for Vehicles, et al, that would add a mundane Mod Slot from the Sci-Fi Companion, above and beyond those that normally exist. (This would be most useful for TLPG Power Armor and Robot Armor, which have pretty much been declared to be 'maxed out' for base mundane Mods, unlike vehicles which typically list how many more Mod slots they have.)

As for Rich/Super Rich, I'm not sure what you're getting at, there.

That being said, and harking back to VVs point. Creating a supertech professional professional edge that changes the ppts in the weird scientist arcane background from ppe to eclip might be a good way to go. But I don't think you need an edge to create supertech items themselves, as it is not apperent TW requires it, and enchanted itms does not require it either. You just needed the right arcane background. But since supertech is not arcane, don't require it to have one in the build roll.

Well, the bolded portion I just disagree with. The ability to construct permanent items is not part of the TW AB, it's part of the TW IF. The Edge being proposed to construct permanent cutting-edge tech items would be similar to the intrinsic ability of the IF.

[Ndreare]

[Grumpy old man]

Honestly I think we do not need all these variant rules for Supertech, Enchanted items and TW.

Why would we not just use the same rules for everything.

For Enchanted Items and Supertech give them 1 less mod to represent they can be used without an AB to support them.

Small Changes for Balance sure, make them about equal to a trapping.

Enchanted Items and TW Items Recharge at Ley Lines and when refilled by someone with an AB.

Super Tech Recharges at the 1/hour rate when plugged into a charging port. They are not normal E-Clips they are super capacitors, tachyon storage devices, or quantum state whatever. Plug them into a port and they refil at 1/X minutes like a TW device at a ley line depending on Power Point Source.

Then everyone is balanced and the rules can follow FAQ provided by Clint or the other GM's.

[/Grumpy old man]

[Freemage]

[Grumpy old man]

Honestly I think we do not need all these variant rules for Supertech, Enchanted items and TW.

Why would we not just use the same rules for everything.

For Enchanted Items and Supertech give them 1 less mod to represent they can be used without an AB to support them.

Small Changes for Balance sure, make them about equal to a trapping.

Enchanted Items and TW Items Recharge at Ley Lines and when refilled by someone with an AB.

Super Tech Recharges at the 1/hour rate when plugged into a charging port. They are not normal E-Clips they are super capacitors, tachyon storage devices, or quantum state whatever. Plug them into a port and they refil at 1/X minutes like a TW device at a ley line depending on Power Point Source.

Then everyone is balanced and the rules can follow FAQ provided by Clint or the other GM's.

[/Grumpy old man]

Primary Issue: No means for creating such items. That, at least, needs to be worked out. TW items can be built by the TW IF (only). If we're going to allow PCs to make the other types of items, we need rules to determine who is able to do so. (And again, I'm opposed to just slapping that ability onto other ABs without cost--item creation is part of an Iconic Framework, not a tag-on to the Arcane Background. That suggests that it should at least be an Edge worth's of ability.)

Given that Enchanted Items also are immune to Technical Difficulties, it seems reasonable to burn a second Major Mod slot on that (which is where we are at, in any case).

[High Command]

Why would we not just use the same rules for everything.

Because it DOESN'T work. TW is tied to ABs. If it did work, I wouldn't have to fight tooth and nail to create a system that to date I HAVE NOT USED.

I think we can all agree that there is something structurally wrong with this. With that in mind I'm going to spend some time working on a replacement that does not use the TW system NOR power points. It will take a while. We can probably lock this, but I'm out. At least I got Enchanted items to mostly work. One day I'll get Tech to have its own leg in the tech vs magic divide

[Pender Lumkiss]

1) these edges exist: rich and super rich. The mods from sci-fi are great, I gave the 13th a zone ranger which if so desired could pick from them. I don't think you need a special edge to access them. The PAs seem to indicate you can built your own PA using them. Maybe just specifically calling out, Hey these are available.

I think VV's proposal was allowing a Major Super-Tech Mod for Vehicles, et al, that would add a mundane Mod Slot from the Sci-Fi Companion, above and beyond those that normally exist. (This would be most useful for TLPG Power Armor and Robot Armor, which have pretty much been declared to be 'maxed out' for base mundane Mods, unlike vehicles which typically list how many more Mod slots they have.)

As for Rich/Super Rich, I'm not sure what you're getting at, there.

That being said, and harking back to VVs point. Creating a supertech professional professional edge that changes the ppts in the weird scientist arcane background from ppe to eclip might be a good way to go. But I don't think you need an edge to create supertech items themselves, as it is not apparent TW requires it, and enchanted itms does not require it either. You just needed the right arcane background. But since supertech is not arcane, don't require it to have one in the build roll.

Well, the bolded portion I just disagree with. The ability to construct permanent items is not part of the TW AB, it's part of the TW IF. The Edge being proposed to construct permanent cutting-edge tech items would be similar to the intrinsic ability of the IF.

Rich and super rich let you add mods to gear ( armor and weapons). VV was looking to add things to greear, Rich and super rich seem a built in way to do that. TW creation is not iconic to the TW frame work. It is more of a setting rule and is Iconic to the rift setting. I do not see TW item creation listed in the bonuses for the framework. If it was listed in the framework itself I could see it being iconic to the TW. I apologize in advance if I missed it within the framework.

Would I prefer, just having TW items and that is it? Sure, All I need is the SR and core rules to play rifts. However, folks want more, and modding items seems to have a good structure contained within the TW creation rules. Spending time to add these additional setting rules for how enchanted and supertech are created and used are a worthwhile endeavor and deserve consideration from all points.

will it be a long process to figure it all out? Sure, some might be quicker than others. Will the end product be great? You bet! I couldn't imagine anything less.

Well first I suppose we need to determine if creating an item and being able to repair daaged items of that type is an edge or setting rule.

[Sparky]

Okay,

I was inclined to leave this alone for a while. But what about a different approach, just a series of small tweaks.

1) An edge (or edge chain) that allows you to add major and minor improvements to a technological device - except for Powers. Keeping the "always on" trade off and limited upgrade slots. Prerequisites would be repair, k/engineering, etc.

Replace loss of powers with Major called "Add a Mod" allowing adding mods from the Sci-Fi Companion to vehicles, robots, and power armor that have available slots.

This edge makes cool tech items and gives the Operator classes flavour that is currently missing from classic. It also leaves our super tech rules basically in tact but removes the power points issue.

2) A TW Major improvement that allows non magic users to use TW devices. If any device with power points is considered magical, this is best.

There is already a way to use Spirit to activate it, or another skill for increased cost. So that's done.

If needed you can call it "super alien device epsilon" but it is functionally TW.

This is what our super tech rules did anyway by reducing mod slots. Used up one for mundane use.

3) Leave Weird Science alone. It was left out as an option for a reason.

To me this is cleaner. Some edges, some GM approved mods, and we've got the ability to make items and let characters do it too.

VV

I like this strategy in general though it still leaves building Signature Items in a grey area (which is my immediate concern.) Since power armor, robot armor and vehicles are outside the scope of Signature/Patron Items where does this leave me in my quest for a unique, gonzo weapon system for my Power Armor Operator

[Ndreare]

I think while a whole suit would be out a weapon system would be fine.

But that would require VV as the Admin to agree to not just a couple GMs.

[Ndreare]

As a note we have no system for making any of the following

• Spaceships,
  Jet Aircraft
  Hover Vehicle
  Sports Cars
  Trucks
  Bicycles
  Tables

Yet somehow I think if someone wanted to have a character that is a Hovercraft mechanic we would figure it out.
When we get into such diversity the only thing that really matters is replacing the skills on a one to one basis with another skill in my opinion.

I don't care if we keep building one or another system. But I think the only real difference for simplicity should be trapping. And saying "No it is not Weird Science, it is Super Science" is exactly that a trapping change. So pay the 1 major tax for allowing mundanes to use it and call it good.

[High Command]

I just deleted a very vitriolic response to you Rob, because it will not help anything and it was needlessly aggressive.

Suffice to say, no this is not just a "trapping" issue because that has been REJECTED roundly at every turn. Locking the thread. New idea will be forthcoming.