Edge: Tinkerer

[Pursuit]

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 3 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades, provided no Minor Upgrade may be taken more than twice), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

A Techno-Wizard may not take this Edge.

Minor Upgrades

Adding a Minor Upgrade to a device costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 4d6 hours.

• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
• +1 damage to a weapon.
• +2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
• +1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
• Halve the weight of the item (quarter if taken twice).
• Apply a mundane Trapping to the device (silver, fire, electricity, etc.)
• Apply a tech Trapping to the device (laser, ion, plasma, etc.)
• +2 to Stealth checks in a single environment such as urban or woodlands (body armor only, can be taken once for each environment but switching takes an action)
• +1 embedded Toughness to a suit of body armor
• Add Full Environmental Protection to a suit of body armor.
• Reduce a Strength Minimum of armor or weapon by one die type.
• +1 to Pace for a suit of body armor.
• +2 AP to a weapon (Special: may only be taken once).
• Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM

Major Upgrades
Installation takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below).

• Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge. No Edges requiring an Arcane Background).
• +1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
• Add a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Special: For every Stain above 1 of the Cybernetic, add 1 die type to the Minimum Strength of the item. For example, a cybernetic with a Strain of 2 installed into a suit of body armor would raise the Minimum Strength rating of that suit by 1 die type. Most Cybernetics will also require the addition of a battery pack to power the device, which does not use up an upgrade slot. Battery life is 96 hours of continuous use before needing to be recharged (taking 2 hours at any power source). For an additional fee this can be upgraded to an e-clip port that can use standard e-clips to power the suit systems and be swapped out as an action. While powered, Minimum Strength increase is ignored.) (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic, plus 10,000 credits for battery pack, 25,000 to upgrade to an e-clip port)
  On Cybernetics

  The Cybernetic option would mostly be used for systems like Internal Life support, secret compartment, ranged data system, targeting eye, audio package, core electronics package, environmental sensors, language translator, optics package, signal booster, Aquatic mode and booster jets for armor or boots, climbing package, or the Ultimate Walking tool package.
• Add an embedded personal weapon or gear to a device. For every twenty pounds (round down) add one die type to the device's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the device.
• Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies)

Timmy List

Minor Upgrades

Adding a Minor Upgrade to a device costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 4d6 hours.

• „
• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
• „+1 damage to a weapon.
• „+2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
• „+1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
• Halve the weight of the item (quarter if taken twice).
• „Apply a mundane Trapping to the device (silver, fire, electricity, etc.)
• +2 to Stealth checks in woodland settings for a suit of body armor. If the suit also has the urban patterns, your hero can switch between the two as an action.
• +1 embedded Toughness to a suit of body armor.
• Add an enhanced communication system to a suit of body armor, providing a 20-mile range. If this is chosen twice, the range is increased to 100 miles.
• Add Full Environmental Protection to a suit of body armor.
• Reduce a suit’s Strength Minimum by one die type.
• +2 to Stealth checks in urban settings for a suit of body armor. If the suit also has woodland patterns, your hero can switch between the two as an action.
• +1 to Pace for a suit of body armor.
• +2 AP to a weapon (Special: may only be taken once).
• Add to a melee weapon an embedded ranged weapon (use embedded weapon stats and add weight to total; must purchase embedded weapon separately).
• Add to a ranged weapon an embedded Vibro-Knife, bayonet-style (Str+d6, AP 4, Mega Damage) (must purchase Vibro-Knife separately and add weight to total)
• Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM

Major Upgrades

Installation takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below).

• Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge).
• „+1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
• Add a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic)
• Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies).

Design Note: I doubled the TW initial build times to account for the fact that no non-TW can build as fast as someone who can whip together a gadget as an action.

Second Draft Didnt Make It Either

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

Techno-Wizards may not take this Edge.

Original Text

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may make exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades). If a character using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Minor Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties. If a charcter using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Major Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties and imposes an additional -2 penalty to the Repair roll to fix it (on top of the result of the Technical Difficulty). Depending on the type of Upgrade and device modified, the GM may impose other restricitons (such as a lower payload for weapons as their e-clips are drained faster by increased damage, by way of example).

[Ndreare]

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may make exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades). If a character using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Minor Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties. If a charcter using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Major Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties and imposes an additional -2 penalty to the Repair roll to fix it (on top of the result of the Technical Difficulty). Depending on the type of Upgrade and device modified, the GM may impose other restricitons (such as a lower payload for weapons as their e-clips are drained faster by increased damage, by way of example).

Looks like you are trying to solve the Super Tech problem. I like the approach, but I would remove the rank requirement an instead state "Beginning at seasoned the Tinkerer can add 2 Major Upgrades". This makes it so they are not ahead of the curve compared to the TW.

PS: You forgot to add a poll. If you want I can add one or you can use this as a learning opportunity.

[Pursuit]

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may make exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades). If a character using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Minor Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties. If a charcter using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Major Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties and imposes an additional -2 penalty to the Repair roll to fix it (on top of the result of the Technical Difficulty). Depending on the type of Upgrade and device modified, the GM may impose other restricitons (such as a lower payload for weapons as their e-clips are drained faster by increased damage, by way of example).

Looks like you are trying to solve the Super Tech problem. I like the approach, but I would remove the rank requirement an instead state "Beginning at seasoned the Tinkerer can add 2 Major Upgrades". This makes it so they are not ahead of the curve compared to the TW.

PS: You forgot to add a poll. If you want I can add one or you can use this as a learning opportunity.

Yup! This is a proposed solution to the non-AB super tech issue.

I can add one; I just thought SOP was to discuss and then put the poll up.

[Ndreare]

I think it has been discussed blue in the face in the other thread. This is just the missing component.

[Pursuit]

Poll added. I like the rank requirement; it means you can’t start doing this stuff until you’ve either (1) seen some time in the field or (2) are preternaturally gifted (and take the Edge at character creation). I think that helps avoid stepping on a TW’s toes while still allowing non-AB characters a method to make use of their skills.

[Freemage]

Proposed Edits:

1: Pre-Req should include the McGuyver Edge. I'm not dead-set on this, but it does establish a reasonable basis for a garage tinkerer--first you learn how to jury-rig a temp solution, then you figure out how to make stuff that lasts.

2: "Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may they install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite.." Basically, you shouldn't be able to mundane-tinker your way into Mentalist, Wizard, etc.

3: "In addition, Background Edges are limited to those that require Agility, Strength or Vigor minimum scores." This basically keeps Luck/Great Luck, Brave, and some other things that would be really weird out of the running. This is mundane, hard sci-fi tech.

[Ndreare]

Proposed Edits:

1: Pre-Req should include the McGuyver Edge. I'm not dead-set on this, but it does establish a reasonable basis for a garage tinkerer--first you learn how to jury-rig a temp solution, then you figure out how to make stuff that lasts.

2: "Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may they install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite.." Basically, you shouldn't be able to mundane-tinker your way into Mentalist, Wizard, etc.

3: "In addition, Background Edges are limited to those that require Agility, Strength or Vigor minimum scores." This basically keeps Luck/Great Luck, Brave, and some other things that would be really weird out of the running. This is mundane, hard sci-fi tech.

I like most of this, but I do think technology can be used for Charisma and Attractive. Both have precedence in real life and in fiction.


PS: I do not think a TW should be excluded for reasons I posted in the mother thread.

[Corrigon]

can these upgrades be carried out on vehicles?

[High Command]

Something we baked into the super-tech rules from the start - all have a built in major mod (the one we take away from the total) of not requiring an AB to be used. I'd suggest keeping that in place, but taking it off the top as we did for Super-tech. It should not be as efficient as TW, or as quick.

For the record, I'm not sold on this. I do not like the idea of non AB users using what amount to setting rules for an AB user, but I'm done fighting this at this point. I do think it should be either this or super-tech. Not both. I liked VV's Super-Tech because it gave love to Psi-Operators and Weird Scientists alike. But this would open up to a lot of others.

and Much to my annoyance - including TWs.

[Tribe of One]

Proposed Edits:
2: "Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may they install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite.." Basically, you shouldn't be able to mundane-tinker your way into Mentalist, Wizard, etc.

3: "In addition, Background Edges are limited to those that require Agility, Strength or Vigor minimum scores." This basically keeps Luck/Great Luck, Brave, and some other things that would be really weird out of the running. This is mundane, hard sci-fi tech.

2) Would seem to prevent lots of perfectly-appropriate items, like a gun with fire or electricity trappings, etc. I can see avoiding Wizard, but why not a Warhammer 40k-style Psychic Hood or Mental Resonance Enhancer that grants Mentalist?

Same thing with 3): I can think of lots of hard sci-fi justifications for an item that grants Brave (something involving drugs, for one, or some sort of fear-editor that counteracts flight responses, etc. As above, I'd leave that up to the item creator to come up with a reasonable justification that passes muster during review, rather than outright banning it.

I'm not sure what I think about this overall. It's kind of a totally mundane but gimped version of Super Tech ... but I think I'd rather just remove the Weird Science/AB requirements from Super Tech and have one system.

[Freemage]

Proposed Edits:

1: Pre-Req should include the McGuyver Edge. I'm not dead-set on this, but it does establish a reasonable basis for a garage tinkerer--first you learn how to jury-rig a temp solution, then you figure out how to make stuff that lasts.

2: "Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may they install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite.." Basically, you shouldn't be able to mundane-tinker your way into Mentalist, Wizard, etc.

3: "In addition, Background Edges are limited to those that require Agility, Strength or Vigor minimum scores." This basically keeps Luck/Great Luck, Brave, and some other things that would be really weird out of the running. This is mundane, hard sci-fi tech.

I like most of this, but I do think technology can be used for Charisma and Attractive. Both have precedence in real life and in fiction.


PS: I do not think a TW should be excluded for reasons I posted in the mother thread.

Attractive would be available--it's based off of Vigor. Charismatic requires Spirit, and so would not be eligible.

A TW taking this Edge wouldn't bother me the way a TW taking the Super-Tech Edge would.

[Tribe of One]

Attractive would be available--it's based off of Vigor. Charismatic requires Spirit, and so would not be eligible.

A TW taking this Edge wouldn't bother me the way a TW taking the Super-Tech Edge would.

Pheromone Emitter seems an easy justification for Charismatic.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

Proposed Edits:
2: "Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may they install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite.." Basically, you shouldn't be able to mundane-tinker your way into Mentalist, Wizard, etc.

3: "In addition, Background Edges are limited to those that require Agility, Strength or Vigor minimum scores." This basically keeps Luck/Great Luck, Brave, and some other things that would be really weird out of the running. This is mundane, hard sci-fi tech.

2) Would seem to prevent lots of perfectly-appropriate items, like a gun with fire or electricity trappings, etc. I can see avoiding Wizard, but why not a Warhammer 40k-style Psychic Hood or Mental Resonance Enhancer that grants Mentalist?

Same thing with 3): I can think of lots of hard sci-fi justifications for an item that grants Brave (something involving drugs, for one, or some sort of fear-editor that counteracts flight responses, etc. As above, I'd leave that up to the item creator to come up with a reasonable justification that passes muster during review, rather than outright banning it.

I'm not sure what I think about this overall. It's kind of a totally mundane but gimped version of Super Tech ... but I think I'd rather just remove the Weird Science/AB requirements from Super Tech and have one system.

I think trappings should be allowed as long as they are not arcane trappings. This allows the tinkerer to modify damage types (electricity, fire, cold, etc.) but still leaves the damage mundane.

As to edges I'd prefer being not limiting edges so much but for this edge I personally would be fine if it were limited to minor upgrades given its nature though if that were the case I think the susceptibility to Technical Difficulties should go away. Keep the number of slots available (by rank) but they can only be used for minor upgrades. The slots would not stack with those available to the super scientist so a if a tinkerer uses up 4 slots then a Super Scientist would have two less slots to work with on the same device. I'd keep the difficulty for repair though.

Hopefully that was clear enough.

[Pursuit]

Ok, what about this:

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. If a character using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Minor Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties. If a charcter using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Major Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties and imposes an additional -2 penalty to the Repair roll to fix it (on top of the result of the Technical Difficulty). Depending on the type of Upgrade and device modified, the GM may impose other restricitons (such as a lower payload for weapons as their e-clips are drained faster by increased damage, by way of example).

Commentary:

This addresses a couple of the items discussed above. First, no arcane stuff. Second, all the trappings have to be science based and be approved by the GM, which should knock out any weird ones that don’t make sense for a given game without having to lay down a hard and fast rule. I don’t like making McGuyver a prerequisite because I am envisioning these things being worked on in a workshop, but I wouldn’t die on that hill, either.

As far as TWs go, if a TW wants to take this edge to make mundane things, more power to him/her, I guess. But she can’t add arcane stuff through this process, and she can’t use Tinkerer to exceed the number of Upgrade slots on a TW item.

To High Command’s point, this is designed to represent the heights of mechanical skill and what is achievable without magic or psionics. I am fine with the super-tech edge proposed elsewhere for Weird Scientists and Psi-Operators, but this is the one I really want to see allowed on the site, to give Operators and mundane folks a way to make permanent but limited (as compared to TWs) modifications to items. I didn’t bake in the Major Upgrade for power use because I did not want to get back into those weeds (I’ve read the super-tech threads; I don’t want to go there) and this Edge only allows two Majors, anyway. Instead, I went with the Deadlands infernal device mechanic that “hey, this is neat, but it’s more prone to breakage,” as I thought that better represented the risk of using something high-tech and/or carefully calibrated.

If all of this pushes the limits too far, I would be amenable to a more limited version that focuses on Minor Upgrades, but I want to give something to the non-wizardly who go in for a science/repair based character build.

And yep, this would work on vehicles, too.

[Freemage]

As listed, J'approve. I concede the point about some trappings making perfect sense.

[Pursuit]

I apparently didn't make the poll public, and I don't know how to change it. Little help?

[Venatus Vinco]

I am good with this.

Is there a need for the other super tech rules? Should we can them in favour of this?

VV

[Corrigon]

I'm good with these rules. I might be able to field test them as Conrad.

[Freemage]

I am good with this.

Is there a need for the other super tech rules? Should we can them in favour of this?

VV

I think we need both, because one produces items with actual Powers, and one does not, and both make sense within those frameworks.

Super-Tech is for Weird Scientists and Psi-Operators. Tinkerer is for Grackletooth Garage Mechanics and CS Engineering Corps. Different roles, different concepts.

[High Command]

I voted needs work because I absolutely DO NOT want TWs to have access to this. I'm sorry, they have the superior methodology available to them, at best this is a side dip, and really its yet another setting rule they'll benefit from that is in no way paid for by their IF. They do not pay in their IF for Item creation. it is a setting rule they alone are allowed to access. I see no issue limiting them to that. The whole purpose of Enchanted Items and Super-Tech was to provide NON-TW options.

[Tribe of One]

The whole purpose of Enchanted Items and Super-Tech was to provide NON-TW options.

That don't suck.

[High Command]

truth

[Pursuit]

I voted needs work because I absolutely DO NOT want TWs to have access to this. I'm sorry, they have the superior methodology available to them, at best this is a side dip, and really its yet another setting rule they'll benefit from that is in no way paid for by their IF. They do not pay in their IF for Item creation. it is a setting rule they alone are allowed to access. I see no issue limiting them to that. The whole purpose of Enchanted Items and Super-Tech was to provide NON-TW options.

I don’t feel particularly strongly about this; if it’s a sticking point, I don’t mind excluding TWs from the edge. I’m trying for a benefit to non-arcane folks with this Edge.

[Freemage]

I had no objections to this being available to TWs, but it's certainly not an issue I care about. If it's restricted to non-TWs, that's cool.

[Sparky]

The whole purpose of Enchanted Items and Super-Tech was to provide NON-TW options.

That don't suck.

+1

[Pursuit]

The whole purpose of Enchanted Items and Super-Tech was to provide NON-TW options.

That don't suck.

+1

Well, that is kind of what we're going for, here. Not sucking.

[Tribe of One]

Oh, I know. But the tendency has been to pile on limitations to Super Tech and enchanted, in the mistaken belief that TW items are some sort of bought-and-paid-for benefit for magic users whose power level must be protected. End result: characters lacking ABs still don't get any nice things, and AB-users remain, unassailable, at the top of the power curve.

[Pursuit]

Oh, I know. But the tendency has been to pile on limitations to Super Tech and enchanted, in the mistaken belief that TW items are some sort of bought-and-paid-for benefit for magic users whose power level must be protected. End result: characters lacking ABs still don't get any nice things, and AB-users remain, unassailable, at the top of the power curve.

Whelp, I’m open to suggestions on how to improve the above. I went with the increased malfunction risk as a balance for not requiring power points to operate and because it seemed thematically appropriate. I could see the power levels for this go up or down, honestly, just as long as non-AB characters end up with something they can use to make permanent improvements.

[Ndreare]

Oh, I know. But the tendency has been to pile on limitations to Super Tech and enchanted, in the mistaken belief that TW items are some sort of bought-and-paid-for benefit for magic users whose power level must be protected. End result: characters lacking ABs still don't get any nice things, and AB-users remain, unassailable, at the top of the power curve.

I see your point and think it is valid. That is why my argument about trappings based approaches that pissed off a couple of people.

If alternate systems are provided they need to have a balance of strengths and weaknesses that should not penalize non AB characters. I think that is some of what VV was going for and he was trying to find a balance in the quirks.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

Oh, I know. But the tendency has been to pile on limitations to Super Tech and enchanted, in the mistaken belief that TW items are some sort of bought-and-paid-for benefit for magic users whose power level must be protected. End result: characters lacking ABs still don't get any nice things, and AB-users remain, unassailable, at the top of the power curve.

Whelp, I’m open to suggestions on how to improve the above. I went with the increased malfunction risk as a balance for not requiring power points to operate and because it seemed thematically appropriate. I could see the power levels for this go up or down, honestly, just as long as non-AB characters end up with something they can use to make permanent improvements.

Enchanted items that do not have powers do not have any power point requirements that I am aware of and do not suffer from technical difficulties at all. Given there are no powers allowed in this version I think normal technical difficulties with an extra -2 to repair (or no modifier with a quirk) would be a more reasonable option.

[Pursuit]

Oh, I know. But the tendency has been to pile on limitations to Super Tech and enchanted, in the mistaken belief that TW items are some sort of bought-and-paid-for benefit for magic users whose power level must be protected. End result: characters lacking ABs still don't get any nice things, and AB-users remain, unassailable, at the top of the power curve.

Whelp, I’m open to suggestions on how to improve the above. I went with the increased malfunction risk as a balance for not requiring power points to operate and because it seemed thematically appropriate. I could see the power levels for this go up or down, honestly, just as long as non-AB characters end up with something they can use to make permanent improvements.

Enchanted items that do not have powers do not have any power point requirements that I am aware of and do not suffer from technical difficulties at all. Given there are no powers allowed in this version I think normal technical difficulties with an extra -2 to repair (or no modifier with a quirk) would be a more reasonable option.

I would certainly be ok with that. I prefer the -2 to Repair over the Quirk, personally, for eaase of administration. That would look like this:

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

Techno-Wizards may not take this Edge.

[Freemage]

Still approved.

[Hans Greuber]

I recommend making the Build Roll include thebother Science based Knowledge skill in the calculations... lime TW have the lowest of 3 skills

[Pursuit]

I recommend making the Build Roll include thebother Science based Knowledge skill in the calculations... lime TW have the lowest of 3 skills

I’d be happy with this conceptually, but I’m not sure how I would word it without restricting things too much. The TW’s three skills are Weird Science, Repair, and Knowledge (Engineering), which are all pretty broad skills that would apply in most areas. If your second qualifying Science skill for Tinkerer was Knowledge (Chemistry), for instance, that would apply only in certain instances, whereas Knowledge (Botany) would apply in others. I wrote it up to be as broad as possible, but I see the reasoning behind what you’re saying. Just not sure how to go about implementing it.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

If you go by the skill section in TLPG skills like Knowledge(Chemistry) or Knowledge(Physics) could be considered subsets of Knowledge(Science) so the rule could be that a specialization could be substituted where appropriate though that could get messy really fast. Given this is a lesser version of Super Science I could see going with the lesser of Knowledge(Science), Knowledge(Engineering) or Repair. Having said that I am still ok with just Science and Engineering as the required skills.

On a note I need to see if I can swap a Knowledge skill out for Sparky so he can take this edge once it's approved.

[High Command]

You can use Knowledge (Science) as is. You have the option of using a concentration or the base skill (per the book). Either way it's still Knowledge (Science).

P.S. This really should include being able to add stuff from the HJ tables, perhaps in lieu of powers. I'd honestly rather see it with its own list of mods. Integrated weapon is a thing after all.

[Venatus Vinco]

This is good.

Re-jigger the mod list to include/match the HJ options, integrated weapons, and maybe steal a few cybernetics that make sense.

VV

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

Squee

[Pursuit]

This is good.

Re-jigger the mod list to include/match the HJ options, integrated weapons, and maybe steal a few cybernetics that make sense.

VV

Will do.

[Venatus Vinco]

Is there really anything on the HJ tables that can't be done with minor mods?

VV

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

The bonus armor is armor is +3 and a minor mod would probably be +2.
The weight reduction includes +1 armor which is like one and a half but you can still use 2 minors to do a little better than that.
There is a +2 to all ranged attacks which would most likely be 2 minor mods together and things along those lines.
Some of it is just adding basic equipment like a radio. Not sure if that should even count as a mod. Pay for the equipment and roll to install it.
Silver weapons can be put down to a trapping.

Would integrated weapons be an option? Either for armor or another weapon? I believe that would have been a major mod for Super Science.

Would we want to follow the HJ guidelines as to how many times a bonus can be applied (i.e. once unless otherwise specified?)

[Venatus Vinco]

Would integrated weapons be an option? Either for armor or another weapon? I believe that would have been a major mod for Super Science.

Yes.

Would we want to follow the HJ guidelines as to how many times a bonus can be applied (i.e. once unless otherwise specified?)

Depends how much differentiation we want. I'd say keep it simple and mirror TW (twice for minors, no limit on majors).

VV

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

Works for me.

[Pursuit]

Would integrated weapons be an option? Either for armor or another weapon? I believe that would have been a major mod for Super Science.

Yes.

Would we want to follow the HJ guidelines as to how many times a bonus can be applied (i.e. once unless otherwise specified?)

Depends how much differentiation we want. I'd say keep it simple and mirror TW (twice for minors, no limit on majors).

VV

Works for me.

Sounds good. I'll update accordingly.

[Pursuit]

Original post updated with a list of available upgrades.

[Ndreare]

I still see no rational reason a techno wizard can not do it. But that won't change my vote.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

I know I don't get a vote but it still works for me. Thumbs up!

[Tribe of One]

What's the rationalization for only allowing two Major Edges and no powers, when Enchanted gets the same amount of Majors, can have Powers, does not suffer Technical Difficulties and counts as magic?

It ought to he at least 3 Majors, and if no powers, I'd argue 4 Majors are justified. Compared to TW, you've got a gimped upgrade list, don't count as magic, but don't have to pay PPE to activate.

[Venatus Vinco]

1) I think two minor, three major is fine for consistency sake with Enchanted items.

2) No solution for adding powers is viable. In Savage Rifts, powers are magic not tech. No way around it. Refer all previous debates on the matter for details.

VV

[Tribe of One]

What's unworkable? The current version of Super Tech has worked well enough for months. Hell, what's wrong with just using straight PP, installed only like Enchanted items and just calling them Battery Points? How does that violate any sacred cows? There's certainly no balance problem. What's wrong with just building an Enchanted item and calling it Tech? It's just a trappings change.

[Pursuit]

Updated to show 3 major mods. I'd also be happy to go to 4, if there are no objections.

[Freemage]

I believe 3 strikes the right balance.

[Tribe of One]

I believe 3 strikes the right balance.

Only if they get access to Powers, like Enchanted Items do. Basically, Super-Tech would be balanced if it's equivalent to Enchanted but with an extra Major to offset the built-in Hindrances (subject to Technical Difficulties, -2 to Repair, doesn't count as magic). If you take away access to Powers, you're adding on another significant limitation that, if not offset, leaves tech in an inferior position.

[High Command]

Voted approved

[Pursuit]

Updated to show tweaked cybernetic rule re: increasing minimum strength, per feedback on Hangouts.

[Venatus Vinco]

Personally, I don't care about strain for these items. Especially if powers are off the table.

No one is saying add strain for an edge or for increasing strength or agility by a die type, which cybernetics does and are also "just" major mods.

Adding Quickness is worse than an extra set of arms and only costs a major mod.


If we are worried about it then keep the min strength increase but add a minor mod to insert a 96 hour battery that eliminates the requirement like the Gladius or T-11. Or even better, have a battery come free on items that don't already have e-clips and use it to "power" all mods.

VV

[Pursuit]

Personally, I don't care about strain for these items. Especially if powers are off the table.

No one is saying add strain for an edge or for increasing strength or agility by a die type, which cybernetics does and are also "just" major mods.

Adding Quickness is worse than an extra set of arms and only costs a major mod.


If we are worried about it then keep the min strength increase but add a minor mod to insert a 96 hour battery that eliminates the requirement like the Gladius or T-11. Or even better, have a battery come free on items that don't already have e-clips and use it to "power" all mods.

VV

Updated to include battery pack.

[High Command]

Personally, I don't care about strain for these items. Especially if powers are off the table.

Personally, I agree. However, others not so much.

[Pender Lumkiss]

The whole purpose of Enchanted Items and Super-Tech was to provide NON-TW options.

That don't suck.

If that was the whole purpose, then they should be taken out of the house rules and buried in a deep dark hole.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 3 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades, provided no Minor Upgrade may be taken more than twice), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

A Techno-Wizard may not take this Edge.

Minor Upgrades

Adding a Minor Upgrade to a device costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 4d6 hours.

• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
• +1 damage to a weapon.
• +2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
• +1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
• Halve the weight of the item (quarter if taken twice).
• Apply a mundane Trapping to the device (silver, fire, electricity, etc.)
• Apply a tech Trapping to the device (laser, ion, plasma, etc.)
• +2 to Stealth checks in a single environment such as urban or woodlands (body armor only, can be taken once for each environment but switching takes an action)
• +1 embedded Toughness to a suit of body armor
• Add Full Environmental Protection to a suit of body armor.
• Reduce a Strength Minimum of armor or weapon by one die type.
• +1 to Pace for a suit of body armor.
• +2 AP to a weapon (Special: may only be taken once).
• Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM

Major Upgrades
Installation takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below).

• Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge. No Edges requiring an Arcane Background).
• +1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
• Add a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Special: For every Stain above 1 of the Cybernetic, add 1 die type to the Minimum Strength of the item. For example, a cybernetic with a Strain of 2 installed into a suit of body armor would raise the Minimum Strength rating of that suit by 1 die type. Most Cybernetics will also require the addition of a battery pack to power the device, which does not use up an upgrade slot. Battery life is 96 hours of continuous use before needing to be recharged (taking 2 hours at any power source). For an additional fee this can be upgraded to an e-clip port that can use standard e-clips to power the suit systems and be swapped out as an action. While powered, Minimum Strength increase is ignored.) (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic, plus 10,000 credits for battery pack, 25,000 to upgrade to an e-clip port)
  On Cybernetics

  High Command suggested in the community hangout that the Cybernetic option would mostly be used for systems like Internal Life support, secret compartment, ranged data system, targeting eye, audio package, core electronics package, environmental sensors, language translator, optics package, signal booster, Aquatic mode and booster jets for armor or boots, climbing package, or the Ultimate Walking tool package. He requested that I drop this list here as an ooc tag.
• Add an embedded personal weapon or gear to a device. For every twenty pounds (round down) add one die type to the device's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the device.
• Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies)

Timmy List

Minor Upgrades

Adding a Minor Upgrade to a device costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 4d6 hours.

• „
• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
• „+1 damage to a weapon.
• „+2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
• „+1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
• Halve the weight of the item (quarter if taken twice).
• „Apply a mundane Trapping to the device (silver, fire, electricity, etc.)
• +2 to Stealth checks in woodland settings for a suit of body armor. If the suit also has the urban patterns, your hero can switch between the two as an action.
• +1 embedded Toughness to a suit of body armor.
• Add an enhanced communication system to a suit of body armor, providing a 20-mile range. If this is chosen twice, the range is increased to 100 miles.
• Add Full Environmental Protection to a suit of body armor.
• Reduce a suit’s Strength Minimum by one die type.
• +2 to Stealth checks in urban settings for a suit of body armor. If the suit also has woodland patterns, your hero can switch between the two as an action.
• +1 to Pace for a suit of body armor.
• +2 AP to a weapon (Special: may only be taken once).
• Add to a melee weapon an embedded ranged weapon (use embedded weapon stats and add weight to total; must purchase embedded weapon separately).
• Add to a ranged weapon an embedded Vibro-Knife, bayonet-style (Str+d6, AP 4, Mega Damage) (must purchase Vibro-Knife separately and add weight to total)
• Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM

Major Upgrades

Installation takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below).

• Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge).
• „+1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
• Add a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic)
• Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies).

Design Note: I doubled the TW initial build times to account for the fact that no non-TW can build as fast as someone who can whip together a gadget as an action.

Second Draft Didnt Make It Either

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

Techno-Wizards may not take this Edge.

Original Text

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may make exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades). If a character using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Minor Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties. If a charcter using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Major Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties and imposes an additional -2 penalty to the Repair roll to fix it (on top of the result of the Technical Difficulty). Depending on the type of Upgrade and device modified, the GM may impose other restricitons (such as a lower payload for weapons as their e-clips are drained faster by increased damage, by way of example).

Please provide the PR page number and book this is trying to translate.

[Pursuit]

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair, Knowledge (Engineering), or Knowledge (Science) which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade, she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 3 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades, provided no Minor Upgrade may be taken more than twice), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

A Techno-Wizard may not take this Edge.

Minor Upgrades

Adding a Minor Upgrade to a device costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 4d6 hours.

• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
• +1 damage to a weapon.
• +2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
• +1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
• Halve the weight of the item (quarter if taken twice).
• Apply a mundane Trapping to the device (silver, fire, electricity, etc.)
• Apply a tech Trapping to the device (laser, ion, plasma, etc.)
• +2 to Stealth checks in a single environment such as urban or woodlands (body armor only, can be taken once for each environment but switching takes an action)
• +1 embedded Toughness to a suit of body armor
• Add Full Environmental Protection to a suit of body armor.
• Reduce a Strength Minimum of armor or weapon by one die type.
• +1 to Pace for a suit of body armor.
• +2 AP to a weapon (Special: may only be taken once).
• Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM

Major Upgrades
Installation takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below).

• Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge. No Edges requiring an Arcane Background).
• +1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
• Add a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Special: For every Stain above 1 of the Cybernetic, add 1 die type to the Minimum Strength of the item. For example, a cybernetic with a Strain of 2 installed into a suit of body armor would raise the Minimum Strength rating of that suit by 1 die type. Most Cybernetics will also require the addition of a battery pack to power the device, which does not use up an upgrade slot. Battery life is 96 hours of continuous use before needing to be recharged (taking 2 hours at any power source). For an additional fee this can be upgraded to an e-clip port that can use standard e-clips to power the suit systems and be swapped out as an action. While powered, Minimum Strength increase is ignored.) (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic, plus 10,000 credits for battery pack, 25,000 to upgrade to an e-clip port)
  On Cybernetics

  High Command suggested in the community hangout that the Cybernetic option would mostly be used for systems like Internal Life support, secret compartment, ranged data system, targeting eye, audio package, core electronics package, environmental sensors, language translator, optics package, signal booster, Aquatic mode and booster jets for armor or boots, climbing package, or the Ultimate Walking tool package. He requested that I drop this list here as an ooc tag.
• Add an embedded personal weapon or gear to a device. For every twenty pounds (round down) add one die type to the device's minimum Str rating, and multiply the cost by 1.5 to get the implanted version cost. The weapon comes with it's own E-Clip or ammunition port, which may be logically located anywhere on the device.
• Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies)

Timmy List

Minor Upgrades

Adding a Minor Upgrade to a device costs 5,000 credits in parts and requires 4d6 hours.

• „
• +1 to a specific Trait roll appropriate to the item.
• „+1 damage to a weapon.
• „+2 armor to armor, shield, or clothing.
• „+1 Parry to a shield or close combat weapon.
• Halve the weight of the item (quarter if taken twice).
• „Apply a mundane Trapping to the device (silver, fire, electricity, etc.)
• +2 to Stealth checks in woodland settings for a suit of body armor. If the suit also has the urban patterns, your hero can switch between the two as an action.
• +1 embedded Toughness to a suit of body armor.
• Add an enhanced communication system to a suit of body armor, providing a 20-mile range. If this is chosen twice, the range is increased to 100 miles.
• Add Full Environmental Protection to a suit of body armor.
• Reduce a suit’s Strength Minimum by one die type.
• +2 to Stealth checks in urban settings for a suit of body armor. If the suit also has woodland patterns, your hero can switch between the two as an action.
• +1 to Pace for a suit of body armor.
• +2 AP to a weapon (Special: may only be taken once).
• Add to a melee weapon an embedded ranged weapon (use embedded weapon stats and add weight to total; must purchase embedded weapon separately).
• Add to a ranged weapon an embedded Vibro-Knife, bayonet-style (Str+d6, AP 4, Mega Damage) (must purchase Vibro-Knife separately and add weight to total)
• Other Minor Upgrades as allowed by the GM

Major Upgrades

Installation takes 2d6 days + 1d6 per 10,000 credit cost of the Major Upgrade. Cost depends on the specific upgrade (listed below).

• Add an Edge to device (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of Edge).
• „+1 die type to a specific Trait appropriate to the item (Cost: 10,000 credits).
• Add a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic)
• Other Major Upgrades as allowed by the GM (Cost: Varies).

Design Note: I doubled the TW initial build times to account for the fact that no non-TW can build as fast as someone who can whip together a gadget as an action.

Second Draft Didnt Make It Either

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device, nor may she install any Edge that requires an Arcane Skill or Background as a Prerequisite. All Upgrades installed by a Tinkerer must have science-based trappings and be approved by the GM in advance.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades), which do not stack with Upgrade slots available for Techno-Wizard or Super Tech devices. Any device Upgraded by a Tinkerer suffers a -2 to any Repair roll made to repair it.

Techno-Wizards may not take this Edge.

Original Text

Tinkerer
Requirements: Seasoned, Smarts d8+, Repair d8+, Knowledge (Engineering) d6+, and at lest one other Scientific Knowledge skill at d6+
Your character may not be a Techno-Wizard, but she is still incredibly valuable where machines are concerned. This techhie savant may make permanent, non-arcane modifications to mechanical devices by rolling the lower of her Repair or Knowledge (Engineering), which is called a Build Roll. To add a Minor Upgrade (see TLPG p.106 for a list of potential Minor Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -2. To add a Major Ugrade, (see TLPG p.107 for a list of potential Major Upgrades, costs, and Build times), she makes her Build Roll at -4. On a success, she installs the Upgrade as planned. On a raise, she may install an extra Minor Upgrade for free, assuming the device has room for one (see below). Unlike a Tecnho-Wizard, a Tinkerer may not add any arcane trappings or powers to a device.

Any device may have up to 2 Minor and up to 2 Major Upgrades (though the Tinkerer may make exchange Major Upgrade spaces for additional Minor Upgrades). If a character using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Minor Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties. If a charcter using a device with one or more Tinkerer installed Major Upgrades rolls a 1 on her Trait Die, regardless of her Wild Die, the item suffers Technical Difficulties and imposes an additional -2 penalty to the Repair roll to fix it (on top of the result of the Technical Difficulty). Depending on the type of Upgrade and device modified, the GM may impose other restricitons (such as a lower payload for weapons as their e-clips are drained faster by increased damage, by way of example).

Please provide the PR page number and book this is trying to translate.

I’m not trying to translate a specific mechanic from PR (I learned that lesson in the Big Bore thread). Generally, this mimics some of what Original Recipe Operators could do, but more importantly (from my perspective) gives players of non-arcane, science/repair based characters more and better options for their characters to contribute (especially at higher levels).

[Pender Lumkiss]

I am not asking for the mechanic, but anything added into house rules must stem from a point in PR. I generally like to read the fluff that an edge is based on or an IF so see if what purposed generally meets the flavor of what is being translated.

If what is being purposed here does not do that, then what are we doing?

[Pursuit]

I am not asking for the mechanic, but anything added into house rules must stem from a point in PR. I generally like to read the fluff that an edge is based on or an IF so see if what purposed generally meets the flavor of what is being translated.

If what is being purposed here does not do that, then what are we doing?

I disagree with the premise that house rules “must stem from a point in PR.”

That said, I believe VV quoted some text on the Operators in the Hangout, so perhaps he (or High Command, who always seems to know these things off the top of his head) has a page reference available.

[High Command]

Easyo - read the operator OCC

[Pursuit]

Easyo - read the operator OCC

See? Knew it.

[Corrigon]

Also, vehicle engineer and weapons engineer skills which provided the ability to do upgrades to tech items.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Easyo - read the operator OCC

Operator is already translated.

Specifically what part of operator is this a translation of?

[Corrigon]

The actual special skills they get

[High Command]

No, the base concept of Operator is translated; read the OCC abilities, what they can do to what they work on. Things that are beyond simple repair - that's Tinkering at its heart. Much like TW item creation, the best way to imitate this would be with a setting rule that allows access to a select group - in this case, those with the edge.

[Pender Lumkiss]

The actual special skills they get

Hey its clear, you guys all want this to happen. Have fun with it.

[Tribe of One]

Here's how I'd do powers, if we want to do Tinkerer and not AB: Super Tech:

Add this Minor Upgrade option:
[*]+5 stored PP, only usable to activate emulated powers †[/color]

Add these as Major Upgrade options:

[*]Emulate a power (Cost: 20,000 credits per Rank of power).* † &
[*]+10 stored PP, only usable to activate emulated powers (Cost: 30,000 credits).†


* A Tinkerer can only install powers of his Rank or less. Emulated powers are not restricted to a particular list, but must include a reasonable (super-)scientific trapping. By default, items use an appropriate Knowledge skill for activation (typically Electronics, Engineering or Science, chosen at creation). For five times the cost, the power activates as part of another action (such as an attack roll for a weapon, or an Agility roll for a trick) using the Trait result of the primary action as its own. The user must still spend Power Points before making the roll, and a failure on the primary action means the power fails as well. Upgrading an item with an emulated power automatically includes a super cell battery or other appropriate reservoir with 5 PP, which can only be used to activate emulated powers (major and minor improvements can add more Power Points). These Power Points are purely technological in nature and are not interchangeable with PPE, ISP or other arcane Power Points; otherwise, emulated powers interact with arcane powers normally.
† Super Tech items that include a built-in Power Point battery recharge automatically over time, but the battery cannot otherwise be swapped out. Used Power Points recharge at a rate of 1 per hour. If the item includes at least one "+10 stored PP" Major Upgrade, the item recharges 1 PP per 30 minutes.
& Although Master of Magic cannot be added to Super Tech items, the Power Mastery Edge (see house rules) can be added as a Major Upgrade to gain access to the Mega version of an emulated power.[/color]


And I'd rework the Cybernetics option like so:

[*] Add a built-in cybernetic system appropriate to the device. Prerequisite systems can be ignored. For cybernetics with Strain 1, Strain may be ignored but the system adds 10 lbs. to Weight. If the system is not integrated into an item with an existing power source, a battery pack must be added, adding a further 5 lbs. to Weight and providing, in general, 96 hours of use before requiring 2 hours of charging time. Cybernetic systems with higher Strain are subject to GM approval and should include additional complications, such as an increase in the Minimum Strength required (in the case of systems installed in body armor) or an appropriate Major Hindrance for each additional level of Strain. (Cost: 150 percent of the cost of the associated cybernetic system).[/color]

For reference, the high Strain cyber systems are:
[*] (Strain 2)[/b] - Adrenal System, Internal Life Support, Nano-Repair System, Embedded Combat Coding, Expanded Detection & Security Array, Leg Upgrades, Mining Drill Apparatus, and larger integrated weapons systems.
[*] (Strain 3)[/b] - Extra Arms.

Since they're subject to GM approval, I didn't add this in, but a simple fix for the Extra Set of Arms that Patrick and I discussed is to add the caveat that the additional non-movement action gained can not be used to activate powers granted by an Arcane Background. (I think it's fine for casters who actually install the cybernetic system and eat the Strain to get it, though.)

On first blush, what strikes me as the most-abusable cybernetic system to do as an upgrade would be the Wired Skill Port and Subject Matter Expert Port, which let you add up to +4d to a skill. But the WSP specifies it can't be used on casting skills, which takes care of the most concerning thing for me ... If people think it's a problem, one possibility would be to include a note saying that, if another Tinkerer upgrade option covers the bonuses provided by a given cybernetic system, use the non-cybernetic option instead. So you have to pay 10k credits and a Major Upgrade for each +1d increase, rather than using a cyber chip port as a shortcut to +4d.

[High Command]

Tribe, I copied your post to the Super-Tech discussion.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

Add a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device (Special: For every Stain above 1 of the Cybernetic, add 1 die type to the Minimum Strength of the item. For example, a cybernetic with a Strain of 2 installed into a suit of body armor would raise the Minimum Strength rating of that suit by 1 die type. Most Cybernetics will also require the addition of a battery pack to power the device, which does not use up an upgrade slot. Battery life is 96 hours of continuous use before needing to be recharged (taking 2 hours at any power source). For an additional fee this can be upgraded to an e-clip port that can use standard e-clips to power the suit systems and be swapped out as an action. While powered, Minimum Strength increase is ignored.) (Cost: Varies by cost of cybernetic, plus 10,000 credits for battery pack, 25,000 to upgrade to an e-clip port)

I think this should read Emulate a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device.

[Tribe of One]

I voted "Needs Work." Explanation: I'd rather not approve a half measure now just to "fix" it later. But I can live with Powers not being included as an option for Tinkerers, as long as they're an option for Super-Tech Signature Items. But the cybernetic systems need to be cleaned up before I can vote "Approve.." I like my proposed tweaks, of course. Dead set against avoiding both Strain and the increase to Min Str by adding e-clips. Would rather not limit the cyber as HC suggested, but could live with it.

EDIT: Good call Fizz.

[High Command]

Suggested change:

Emulate a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device. For anything with a strain rating over 1 on the following list, the item costs an additional minor modification slot. Many cybernetic options are already represented, and so only the following are allowed with this option: Internal life support, secret compartment, ranged data system, targeting eye, audio package, core electronics package, environmental sensors, language translator, optics package, signal booster, Aquatic mode and booster jets for armor or boots, climbing package, or the ultimate walking tool package.

[Pursuit]

Ok, I have proposed changes from Tribe and HC. Freemage, do you have suggested language, or would you be happy with one or both of the two options put forth? Once I gather all the suggestions, I can make updates to the language and we can see about getting this to a place where everyone is happier with it.

[High Command]

Tribes’ proposal is for SuperTech

[Pursuit]

Suggested change:

Emulate a Cybernetic System appropriate to the device. For anything with a strain rating over 1 on the following list, the item costs an additional minor modification slot. Many cybernetic options are already represented, and so only the following are allowed with this option: Internal life support, secret compartment, ranged data system, targeting eye, audio package, core electronics package, environmental sensors, language translator, optics package, signal booster, Aquatic mode and booster jets for armor or boots, climbing package, or the ultimate walking tool package.

I voted "Needs Work." Explanation: I'd rather not approve a half measure now just to "fix" it later. But I can live with Powers not being included as an option for Tinkerers, as long as they're an option for Super-Tech Signature Items. But the cybernetic systems need to be cleaned up before I can vote "Approve.." I like my proposed tweaks, of course. Dead set against avoiding both Strain and the increase to Min Str by adding e-clips. Would rather not limit the cyber as HC suggested, but could live with it.

EDIT: Good call Fizz.

These are the two suggestions I have received on the Cybernetics.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

While powered, Minimum Strength increase is ignored.

Not sure this phrase belongs. For tech powering the suit would not make it lighter unlike TW armor. If the suit has strength bonuses then treating it the same as the Gladius or T-11 is one way to go. Or if the suit boosts the users strength like TW armor can then use the wearer's modified strength to determine if the min strength is met. My two cents anyway.

[Ndreare]

While powered, Minimum Strength increase is ignored.

Not sure this phrase belongs. For tech powering the suit would not make it lighter unlike TW armor. If the suit has strength bonuses then treating it the same as the Gladius or T-11 is one way to go. Or if the suit boosts the users strength like TW armor can then use the wearer's modified strength to determine if the min strength is met. My two cents anyway.

This is how it works for Triax armor. As soon as you power it up the minimum strength is ignored. (Except spellcasting modifiers)

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

While powered, Minimum Strength increase is ignored.

Not sure this phrase belongs. For tech powering the suit would not make it lighter unlike TW armor. If the suit has strength bonuses then treating it the same as the Gladius or T-11 is one way to go. Or if the suit boosts the users strength like TW armor can then use the wearer's modified strength to determine if the min strength is met. My two cents anyway.

This is how it works for Triax armor. As soon as you power it up the minimum strength is ignored. (Except spellcasting modifiers)

I think that is due to the armor having it's own strength rating due to the servos. No power, no artificial strength. If I install a Internal Life Support (strain 2) that is battery powered into a Huntsman Armor do I just ignore the min strength (which is now a d8) of the suit while the suit is powered? That just seems weird to me.

[Ndreare]

I think that is due to the armor having it's own strength rating due to the servos. No power, no artificial strength. If I install a Internal Life Support (strain 2) that is battery powered into a Huntsman Armor do I just ignore the min strength (which is now a d8) of the suit while the suit is powered? That just seems weird to me.

Oh I see. I agree, that would be weird.

[Pursuit]

I think that is due to the armor having it's own strength rating due to the servos. No power, no artificial strength. If I install a Internal Life Support (strain 2) that is battery powered into a Huntsman Armor do I just ignore the min strength (which is now a d8) of the suit while the suit is powered? That just seems weird to me.

Oh I see. I agree, that would be weird.

I'll put up some new proposed language tonight (hopefully). I was thinking just the increased strength minimum when I wrote that, not the whole strength minimum.

[Ndreare]

I think that is due to the armor having it's own strength rating due to the servos. No power, no artificial strength. If I install a Internal Life Support (strain 2) that is battery powered into a Huntsman Armor do I just ignore the min strength (which is now a d8) of the suit while the suit is powered? That just seems weird to me.

Oh I see. I agree, that would be weird.

I'll put up some new proposed language tonight (hopefully). I was thinking just the increased strength minimum when I wrote that, not the whole strength minimum.

Would you be will to have it be a new thread linked to this one and lock this thread. That will make it easier to see which points have been addressed already so we are not responding to stuff already covered?

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

It is getting a little long in the tooth in here.

[Tribe of One]

The increased Min Str needs to stay as a curb against abuse by casters. Even with the Gladius and T-11 exo-armors, the 1d8 Str Min still applies when powered, as far as casting is concerned. The Str Min penalty for cyber systems would increase that to d10 or even d12 (if extra arms were allowed), which should deter most casters (without a significant investment in Strength or Minor Upgrades spent to reduce it).

[Freemage]

1: I like the limited cybernetics list. I think we should remove the language translator, not because it's not sensible, but because it's unnecessary (it's cheaper and lighter to install the handheld version from Personal Gear, using that option instead). No reason to trick players into screwing themselves over because they didn't comparison shop.

2: I am opposed to the idea that pre-req systems should not be included. Consider: Cost of an Optics Package plus a Targeting Eye as Cyberware is 2 Strain, 78K Cr. Cost of just a Tinkered Targeting Eye on your rifle-scope is 18K, +10 lbs. I cannot see any reason for anyone to ever invest in a targeting eye cyberware if this is on the market (frankly, the only reason for anyone to install an Optics Package is because they're going to get some of the add-ons; otherwise, you're better off putting in an EDS). Either require pre-req cybernetics to be installed, or permit it to sync up with actual cyberware (so you can have a Targeting Eye on your scope, but you still need a cybernetic optics package for it to link to--or you can throw down and put both on the scope as a second Major). Note the precedence for this for advanced Edges--we allow someone to put Improved Frenzy on a weapon, but it doesn't do anything unless the wielder also has Frenzy).

3: Outside of that caveat, I like Tribe's +10 lbs/+50% cost rule for such systems.

[Tribe of One]

2: I am opposed to the idea that pre-req systems should not be included. Consider: Cost of an Optics Package plus a Targeting Eye as Cyberware is 2 Strain, 78K Cr. Cost of just a Tinkered Targeting Eye on your rifle-scope is 18K, +10 lbs. I cannot see any reason for anyone to ever invest in a targeting eye cyberware if this is on the market (frankly, the only reason for anyone to install an Optics Package is because they're going to get some of the add-ons; otherwise, you're better off putting in an EDS). Either require pre-req cybernetics to be installed, or permit it to sync up with actual cyberware (so you can have a Targeting Eye on your scope, but you still need a cybernetic optics package for it to link to--or you can throw down and put both on the scope as a second Major). Note the precedence for this for advanced Edges--we allow someone to put Improved Frenzy on a weapon, but it doesn't do anything unless the wielder also has Frenzy).

Oooo, I kind of like this. Reminds me of Shadowrun and things like Smartlink systems that are part cyber, part gear. We'd need to add Cyber-Wire Reflexes to the list of allowed cyber, then, since it's a common prereq. Or just say that a +1d Agility Major Upgrade counts-as CWR.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

Sorry but the +10 lbs per strain is way too punitive. Take the "everyone has to have one" T-10 armor. That's 25 lbs. Add three strain worth of upgrades and now it's 55 lbs. Sorry, 60 lbs because there is a 5 lb battery. A character with d10 strength is going to be encumbered even before picking up a weapon! A d12 character will be encumbered as soon as he picks up a weapon. A brawny Grackletooth might wear it but that's a fairly niche market.

Plus if the idea is to discourage abusive casters all they have to do is use the minor mods to bring the weight back down. Which means you are actually spending 5 slots for those 3 upgrades.


Increasing the minimum strength for items where the strain is greater than 1 seems sufficient to me. I could also see coming up with a custom price list that factors in the "missing" upgrades they would need if they were using cybernetics.

[Pursuit]

Updated language will be at a random hour tonight or tomorrow, FYI.

[Pender Lumkiss]

not sure this will be helpful, but the TW not able to take it restriction is not consistent with savage world edges. If it is meant to be iconic then state MARS iconic frame works only. Or if it is litterally meant to fulfill the need of a missing aspect of operators, just iclude it as an iconic edge for MARS operator.

Also reading through the Operator, this should also have a couple of mods ( sorry if I missed them), somethign that increases range. Maybe minor 5pts, and major 10pts or use a percentage 5% and 10%. Also I beleive the operator can increase capacity of a weapon, so maybe 5 and 10 extra shot minor and major edges.

Anyways just some thoughts about mods that apparently got missed but that you would want to include in something meant to reflect the operator PR flavor.

[High Command]

The idea of using minor mods is basically a nod to that idea of adding weight and taking it away. You add the cyberware as a major. it's two strain. You blow a minor mod to account for "reducing the weight" and cut out the middleman.

Also, in an item that maxes out at 5, having prereqs for systems is not only silly, it's ridiculous! Who cares if I don't have an agility mod in a scope? That makes no sense anyway! Who cares if I don't have nightvision in my scope? My armor might have it, or I might have it naturally. Why would I need nightvision (part of the optics package) when what I want is a tracking laser and targeting reticle that helps me know where to point the gun (targeting eye), or a system that helps me adjust for range and movement penalties (Ranged Data System).

I had more, but we'll start there. Just use minor mods to account for Strain - simple, ease and not punative on Major mod slots

[Pursuit]

Updated edge at http://savagerifts.com/sr/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1923