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Supertech Pricing

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How should SuperTech Items be priced?

Keep the pricing the same as it is now (10K per point of Powers)
0
No votes
Each Power should be priced according to the formula: X^2 x5K, where X = the value of the Power with all Modifiers
1
10%
Each Power should be priced according to the formula: X^2 x5K, where X = the value of the base Power and all Positive Modifiers, but excluding negative Modifiers
9
90%
 
Total votes: 10

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Freemage
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Supertech Pricing

Post by Freemage »

So, after some time working with Supertech, some of the GMs have found the 10K per point price a bit cheap.

It's not horribly out of line for low-point Powers, but when you get something like Absorption (Energy Master) for a mere 70K, things seem a bit off. This is further enhanced by using a low-cost item as the base item. (150% of 1K is still only 1500 Cr, which doesn't really balance out the cheap cost of power points.) When discussing this in the Hangout, further concerns were mentioned regarding the ubiquity of negative Modifiers. (These issues were only noticed once people started crafting/buying items--when the rules were first created for Supertech gear, we mostly were focused on the power-balance compared to Signature TW Items.

Some comparison points:
A Heroic-Tier TW Item with Drain Power Points, Fly, Intangibility, Teleport, and two minor Upgrades, with all the powers being activated by non-Arcane Skills, would be 1,310,000 Credits. Granted, that's extreme, but it is a theoretical possibility. The ShadowCloak is 300K, which is more typical of 'high-end TW gear.

So, we have three possibilities, going forward:

1: Stick with the current pricing. Don't be surprised if some GMs make it harder to buy Supertech going forward, though.
2: Change the pricing to a new formula: Each Power on an item is price as its Power-Point value squared, x5K. So a 1-point Power would be 5K, and a 5-point Power would be 125K.
3: As 2, but the value of the Power would be calculated only using the base Power value and any positive Modifiers--negative Modifiers would NOT reduce the cost.

An example item, so folks can get an idea of the costs:

Vicious Blade 1 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 10K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 40K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 10K
Total Cost: 126250 K Cr

Vicious Blade 2 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 5K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 80K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 5K
Total Cost: 156250

Vicious Blade 3 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 45K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 80K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 5K
Total Cost: 196250

It's still a fairly powerful item, but the costs are a bit more in-line with expectations.
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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Ndreare »

Voted,
I think my vote was obvious. But I really like that you took the time to address an imbalance. Thank you Freemage.

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Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

What about the imbalance in time to create? supertech is all in hours while enchanted and TW have both hours(minor) and days (major)?
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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Pender Lumkiss wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:20 am What about the imbalance in time to create? supertech is all in hours while enchanted and TW have both hours(minor) and days (major)?
Start a new discussion, but that's worth having also.

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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Snake Eyes »

Pender Lumkiss wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:20 am What about the imbalance in time to create? supertech is all in hours while enchanted and TW have both hours(minor) and days (major)?
As a point of note, this was highlighted by Jon's character's enchanted item commission taking 73 days, and Derrick's character's multiple ST items taking a total of 6 days between them.
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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Ndreare »

How about the following
  • 1d6 hours for 1 total points
  • 2d6 hours for 2 total points
  • 1d6 days for 3 total points
  • 2d6 days for 4 total points
  • 3d6 days for 5 total points
  • 4d6 days for 6 total points
  • 5d6 days for 7 total points
  • 6d6 days for 8 total points
    and +1d6 days per additional point

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Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
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Hans Greuber
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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Hans Greuber »

RFT wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm How about the following
  • 1d6 hours for 1 total points
  • 2d6 hours for 2 total points
  • 1d6 days for 3 total points
  • 2d6 days for 4 total points
  • 3d6 days for 5 total points
  • 4d6 days for 6 total points
  • 5d6 days for 7 total points
  • 6d6 days for 8 total points
    and +1d6 days per additional point
These should be the before limitations times, perhaps?
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Commonly Used Weapons:
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    • Damage: 3d8+5 AP6 MD.
    • Shots: 40/40
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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Ndreare »

Hans Greuber wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:26 pm
RFT wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm How about the following
  • 1d6 hours for 1 total points
  • 2d6 hours for 2 total points
  • 1d6 days for 3 total points
  • 2d6 days for 4 total points
  • 3d6 days for 5 total points
  • 4d6 days for 6 total points
  • 5d6 days for 7 total points
  • 6d6 days for 8 total points
    and +1d6 days per additional point
These should be the before limitations times, perhaps?
Nah, they are already paying for it with credits. And this is total points in device, if the GM wants it in his game, he will not want to tell the player "come back next year"

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Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Freemage »

Okay, there's pretty solid consensus here, I think. No one is even contradicting the prefered new formula, let alone contradicting the change proposal. I think we can probably edit the new cost formula into the ST rules. (BTW, I'm favoring grandfathering--it's just not worth it to go back and re-price every item. Old ST items SHOULD be re-valued for repair purposes going forward, but just let the players keep what they bought.)
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Hexx, Rising Stars SPC
Malaetheryan, Phase World/Relentless
Jaenelle, Beyond the Wall
Yeitso & Alicia Forsythe, Prestige Unlimited

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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Agreed.

I think only admin can edit the official posts, so I will try to get to it over the Christmas season.

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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Koshnek »

I'm probably the first to use these rules, and I can attest to the fact that the cost is much higher. I added 6 ST PP to a Subject Data Port ([3000 + {3000 x 1.5}] + [6^2 x 5000] = 187,500 credits).

Seems more reasonable than the 67,500 I was initially paying.

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Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Ndreare »

Oh yes, this is good. But the rules need updated because the build still shows wrong.


I will delete my other post.

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,

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative without rerolls.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list]see Cards in Rob's games bellow for exact card.[/list][/color][/b]

,
  • 2D6 EFFECT
    2 Catastrophe: Something goes terribly wrong. The GM must decide what, but some ideas are a new and permanent Minor Hindrance, the inability to use powers for several days, or an explosion of some sort. The backlash should be thematic if possible. If the hero tampers with dark forces for his abilities, for example, he might become corrupted or summon something sinister into the world. If he’s a weird scientist the device might explode for 3d6 damage in a Medium Blast Template, or he might develop a Quirk, Phobia, or other “madness.”

    3 Backfire: The power succeeds as with a raise but affects a different target with the worst possible results. A bolt hits a random friend, boost Trait increases an enemy’s skill or attribute, etc. If there’s no likely target, he’s Stunned instead. If the power has a Duration other than Instant, it lasts its full term and can only be negated by dispel (the caster can’t voluntarily end it herself).

    4–5 Short Circuit: The power fails but the Power Points allocated to it are spent, along with an additional 1d6 Power Points.

    6–8 Stunned: The caster is Stunned (see page 106). She subtracts 2 from arcane skill rolls for the rest of the encounter (the penalty remains –2 even if she gets this result again).

    9–10 Overload: The character’s synapses crackle and overload with power. He takes 2d6 damage plus the cost of the power in Power Points, including any Power Modifiers the player declared.

    11 Fatigue: The character suffers Fatigue.

    12 Overcharge: The power draws ambient energy from the air, automatically succeeding against the target with a raise and costing the caster no Power Points!

,
1 = 2 of Clubs
2 = 2 of Diamonds
3 = 2 of Hearts
4 = 2 of Spades
5 = 3 of Clubs
6 = 3 of Diamonds
7 = 3 of Hearts
8 = 3 of Spades
9 = 4 of Clubs
10 = 4 of Diamonds
11 = 4 of Hearts
12 = 4 of Spades
13 = 5 of Clubs
14 = 5 of Diamonds
15 = 5 of Hearts
16 = 5 of Spades
- reroll line for quickness & activation for Calculating -
17 = 6 of Clubs
18 = 6 of Diamonds
19 = 6 of Hearts
20 = 6 of Spades
21 = 7 of Clubs
22 = 7 of Diamonds
23 = 7 of Hearts
24 = 7 of Spades
25 = 8 of Clubs
26 = 8 of Diamonds
27 = 8 of Hearts
28 = 8 of Spades
- reroll line for Hyperion Juicer -
29 = 9 of Clubs
30 = 9 of Diamonds
31 = 9 of Hearts
32 = 9 of Spades
33 = 10 of Clubs
34 = 10 of Diamonds
35 = 10 of Hearts
36 = 10 of Spades
37 = J of Clubs
38 = J of Diamonds
39 = J of Hearts
40 = J of Spades
41 = Q of Clubs
42 = Q of Diamonds
43 = Q of Hearts
44 = Q of Spades
45 = K of Clubs
46 = K of Diamonds
47 = K of Hearts
48 = K of Spades
49 = A of Clubs
50 = A of Diamonds
51 = A of Hearts
52 = A of Spades
53 = Jokers = They are equal
54 = Jokers = They are equal
- If no reroll is being used then there are 2 extra jokers -
55 = Jokers = They are equal
56 = Jokers = They are equal
and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
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Carlos
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Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 5:55 am

Re: Supertech Pricing

Post by Carlos »

In general, my definition of "Supertech" it roughly similar to Asimov's law: Any technology sufficiently advanced that it can pass for magic.

So a lot of items from Rifts would count as Supertech in a place like Nightbane Earth or the Dresden Files, where technology is significantly lower.

This is generally best simulated by powers, as it is hard to envision what the products of superior technology would actually be like.

Price is hard to figure, given that supertech item are (pretty much by definition) unique.
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Beast Master - Additional Benefit: Monstrous Animals also like the character

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