Supertech Pricing
Supertech Pricing
So, after some time working with Supertech, some of the GMs have found the 10K per point price a bit cheap.
It's not horribly out of line for low-point Powers, but when you get something like Absorption (Energy Master) for a mere 70K, things seem a bit off. This is further enhanced by using a low-cost item as the base item. (150% of 1K is still only 1500 Cr, which doesn't really balance out the cheap cost of power points.) When discussing this in the Hangout, further concerns were mentioned regarding the ubiquity of negative Modifiers. (These issues were only noticed once people started crafting/buying items--when the rules were first created for Supertech gear, we mostly were focused on the power-balance compared to Signature TW Items.
Some comparison points:
A Heroic-Tier TW Item with Drain Power Points, Fly, Intangibility, Teleport, and two minor Upgrades, with all the powers being activated by non-Arcane Skills, would be 1,310,000 Credits. Granted, that's extreme, but it is a theoretical possibility. The ShadowCloak is 300K, which is more typical of 'high-end TW gear.
So, we have three possibilities, going forward:
1: Stick with the current pricing. Don't be surprised if some GMs make it harder to buy Supertech going forward, though.
2: Change the pricing to a new formula: Each Power on an item is price as its Power-Point value squared, x5K. So a 1-point Power would be 5K, and a 5-point Power would be 125K.
3: As 2, but the value of the Power would be calculated only using the base Power value and any positive Modifiers--negative Modifiers would NOT reduce the cost.
An example item, so folks can get an idea of the costs:
Vicious Blade 1 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 10K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 40K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 10K
Total Cost: 126250 K Cr
Vicious Blade 2 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 5K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 80K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 5K
Total Cost: 156250
Vicious Blade 3 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 45K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 80K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 5K
Total Cost: 196250
It's still a fairly powerful item, but the costs are a bit more in-line with expectations.
It's not horribly out of line for low-point Powers, but when you get something like Absorption (Energy Master) for a mere 70K, things seem a bit off. This is further enhanced by using a low-cost item as the base item. (150% of 1K is still only 1500 Cr, which doesn't really balance out the cheap cost of power points.) When discussing this in the Hangout, further concerns were mentioned regarding the ubiquity of negative Modifiers. (These issues were only noticed once people started crafting/buying items--when the rules were first created for Supertech gear, we mostly were focused on the power-balance compared to Signature TW Items.
Some comparison points:
A Heroic-Tier TW Item with Drain Power Points, Fly, Intangibility, Teleport, and two minor Upgrades, with all the powers being activated by non-Arcane Skills, would be 1,310,000 Credits. Granted, that's extreme, but it is a theoretical possibility. The ShadowCloak is 300K, which is more typical of 'high-end TW gear.
So, we have three possibilities, going forward:
1: Stick with the current pricing. Don't be surprised if some GMs make it harder to buy Supertech going forward, though.
2: Change the pricing to a new formula: Each Power on an item is price as its Power-Point value squared, x5K. So a 1-point Power would be 5K, and a 5-point Power would be 125K.
3: As 2, but the value of the Power would be calculated only using the base Power value and any positive Modifiers--negative Modifiers would NOT reduce the cost.
An example item, so folks can get an idea of the costs:
Vicious Blade 1 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 10K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 40K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 10K
Total Cost: 126250 K Cr
Vicious Blade 2 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 5K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 80K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 5K
Total Cost: 156250
Vicious Blade 3 (base item: Chain Greatsword):
Base Cost: 18500
Supertech Conversion: 27750
Powers:
Extra Action I (Limitation: -2, only allows a second attack with this weapon) (1 pt) 45K
Super-Skill Fighting ii (Fighting +2 DT) (2 pts) 20K
Super-Attribute Strength II (Strength +2 DT) (4 pts) 80K
Parry I (Parry +1) (1 pt) 5K
Total Cost: 196250
It's still a fairly powerful item, but the costs are a bit more in-line with expectations.
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Re: Supertech Pricing
Voted,
I think my vote was obvious. But I really like that you took the time to address an imbalance. Thank you Freemage.
I think my vote was obvious. But I really like that you took the time to address an imbalance. Thank you Freemage.
, and of course update your signatures!
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Re: Supertech Pricing
What about the imbalance in time to create? supertech is all in hours while enchanted and TW have both hours(minor) and days (major)?
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Re: Supertech Pricing
Start a new discussion, but that's worth having also.Pender Lumkiss wrote: ↑Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:20 am What about the imbalance in time to create? supertech is all in hours while enchanted and TW have both hours(minor) and days (major)?
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Re: Supertech Pricing
As a point of note, this was highlighted by Jon's character's enchanted item commission taking 73 days, and Derrick's character's multiple ST items taking a total of 6 days between them.Pender Lumkiss wrote: ↑Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:20 am What about the imbalance in time to create? supertech is all in hours while enchanted and TW have both hours(minor) and days (major)?
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Re: Supertech Pricing
How about the following
- 1d6 hours for 1 total points
- 2d6 hours for 2 total points
- 1d6 days for 3 total points
- 2d6 days for 4 total points
- 3d6 days for 5 total points
- 4d6 days for 6 total points
- 5d6 days for 7 total points
- 6d6 days for 8 total points
and +1d6 days per additional point
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
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"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
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Re: Supertech Pricing
These should be the before limitations times, perhaps?RFT wrote: ↑Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm How about the following
- 1d6 hours for 1 total points
- 2d6 hours for 2 total points
- 1d6 days for 3 total points
- 2d6 days for 4 total points
- 3d6 days for 5 total points
- 4d6 days for 6 total points
- 5d6 days for 7 total points
- 6d6 days for 8 total points
and +1d6 days per additional point
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Re: Supertech Pricing
Nah, they are already paying for it with credits. And this is total points in device, if the GM wants it in his game, he will not want to tell the player "come back next year"Hans Greuber wrote: ↑Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:26 pmThese should be the before limitations times, perhaps?RFT wrote: ↑Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm How about the following
- 1d6 hours for 1 total points
- 2d6 hours for 2 total points
- 1d6 days for 3 total points
- 2d6 days for 4 total points
- 3d6 days for 5 total points
- 4d6 days for 6 total points
- 5d6 days for 7 total points
- 6d6 days for 8 total points
and +1d6 days per additional point
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
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Re: Supertech Pricing
Okay, there's pretty solid consensus here, I think. No one is even contradicting the prefered new formula, let alone contradicting the change proposal. I think we can probably edit the new cost formula into the ST rules. (BTW, I'm favoring grandfathering--it's just not worth it to go back and re-price every item. Old ST items SHOULD be re-valued for repair purposes going forward, but just let the players keep what they bought.)
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Re: Supertech Pricing
Agreed.
I think only admin can edit the official posts, so I will try to get to it over the Christmas season.
VV
I think only admin can edit the official posts, so I will try to get to it over the Christmas season.
VV
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Re: Supertech Pricing
I'm probably the first to use these rules, and I can attest to the fact that the cost is much higher. I added 6 ST PP to a Subject Data Port ([3000 + {3000 x 1.5}] + [6^2 x 5000] = 187,500 credits).
Seems more reasonable than the 67,500 I was initially paying.
I have no qualms as a GM.
Seems more reasonable than the 67,500 I was initially paying.
I have no qualms as a GM.
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Re: Supertech Pricing
Oh yes, this is good. But the rules need updated because the build still shows wrong.
I will delete my other post.
I will delete my other post.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
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Re: Supertech Pricing
In general, my definition of "Supertech" it roughly similar to Asimov's law: Any technology sufficiently advanced that it can pass for magic.
So a lot of items from Rifts would count as Supertech in a place like Nightbane Earth or the Dresden Files, where technology is significantly lower.
This is generally best simulated by powers, as it is hard to envision what the products of superior technology would actually be like.
Price is hard to figure, given that supertech item are (pretty much by definition) unique.
So a lot of items from Rifts would count as Supertech in a place like Nightbane Earth or the Dresden Files, where technology is significantly lower.
This is generally best simulated by powers, as it is hard to envision what the products of superior technology would actually be like.
Price is hard to figure, given that supertech item are (pretty much by definition) unique.
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