Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Review

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Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Review

Post by Pursuit » Thu May 10, 2018 5:48 am

This is for a Techno-Wizard character whose backstory includes several years at a TW guild workshop in Stormspire.

Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle
One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and Techno-Wizards are famous for making the latter from the former.
  • Type of Item: CP-50 “Dragonfire” Laser Rifle.
    • Range: 30/60/120
      Damage: 3d6+2
      ROF: 3
      Armor Piercing: 2
      Shots: 60
      Weight: 10 lbs
      Cost: 50,000
      Notes: Min Str d6, 3RB. Integrated grenade launcher (20/40/80, 12 shots, damage by grenade type) and scope with night vision and laser targeting (offset two points of range and/or darkness penalties).
  • Upgrades (2 Minor, 4 Major): Trapping: shaped and hardened telekinetic bolts do +2 AP but add +1 to PP reload cost and cause rounds to be treated as ballistics (reskin of Electricity: AP trapping); +5 PPE; drain power points (activated by Shooting); confusion (activated by Shooting); +2 die types to Shooting.
  • PPE: Costs 6 PPE to reload for 60 shots; 5 PPE built in.
  • Trait: Shooting.
  • Description: One of Anon’s personal projects, this started out as the remains of an ancient M4 carbine he found in his Techno-Wizard guild’s storeroom (Techno-Wizards are notorious packrats). Anon thought the weapon looked cool and patched up the body, eventually turning it into a TK assault rifle to pass one of the milestone exams for his apprenticeship. He kept the weapon and added to it over the years, imbuing it with a magical “target lock” feature and spells that allowed for its rounds to make mid air adjustments for greater accuracy. He also added a bit of extra potency to better punch through armor and he repaired the scope and grenade launcher from the original weapon body.

    With all of that, he had himself a fine rifle, but he was not entirely content. He had read the field reports on his guild’s weapons, and while they performed admirably, he noted that some customers wanted a weapon with more support versatility. It’s all well and good to shoot holes in your opponent, but if that opponent happens to be a juicer (or other foe who can shrug off or regenerate from wounds), you can get in real trouble real fast. So Anon developed the TK Brain Breaker round, a simple application of magic that very temporarily makes targets forget where they are and what they are doing. Targets of the Brain Breaker will frequently break off attacks entirely or stand still on the battlefield for the briefest of moments to gather their thoughts, giving shooters a great opportunity to put them down while they are distracted. Field tests were wildly successful, but the guild ultimately decided the rifle wasn’t cost effective for mass production (though it does now include the Brain Breaker feature as an option in its custom catalogue).

    Figuring he might as well go for broke (literally: even getting the parts for free from surplus at the shop, second hand, or at wholesale, the next feature was pricey), he convinced his floor boss to help him embed the ability to drain the PPE or ISP of arcane opponents on a successful hit with the rifle, giving it even more versatility. Though this was also a successful endeavor, the guild opted not offer Anon’s PPE draining feature in its catalogue for fear of offending its clientele in Stormspire.
  • Cost: As built, 50,000 (CP-50) + 5,000 (TW conversion) + 10,000 (2 minor Upgrades) + 20,000 (2 die types to Shooting) + 100,000 (confusion, activated by Shooting) + 400,000 (drain power points, activated by Shooting) = 585,000 credits.
Version 1.0
This is for a Techno-Wizard character whose backstory includes several years at a TW guild workshop in Stormspire.

Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle
One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and Techno-Wizards are famous for making the latter from the former.
  • Type of Item: CP-50 “Dragonfire” Laser Rifle.
    • Range: 30/60/120
      Damage: 3d6+2
      ROF: 3
      Armor Piercing: 2
      Shots: 60
      Weight: 10 lbs
      Cost: 50,000
      Notes: Min Str d6, 3RB. Integrated grenade launcher (20/40/80, 12 shots, damage by grenade type) and scope with night vision and laser targeting (offset two points of range and/or darkness penalties).
  • Upgrades (2 Minor, 4 Major): Trapping: telekinetic bolts; +2 AP; drain power points (activated by Shooting); confusion (activated by Shooting); +2 die types to Shooting.
  • PPE: Costs 4 PPE to reload for 60 shots; no PPE built in.
  • Trait: Shooting.
  • Description: One of Anon’s personal projects, this started out as the remains of an ancient M4 carbine he found in his Techno-Wizard guild’s storeroom (Techno-Wizards are notorious packrats). Anon thought the weapon looked cool and patched up the body, eventually turning it into a TK assault rifle to pass one of the milestone exams for his apprenticeship. He kept the weapon and added to it over the years, imbuing it with a magical “target lock” feature and spells that allowed for its rounds to make mid air adjustments for greater accuracy. He also added a bit of extra potency to better punch through armor and he repaired the scope and grenade launcher from the original weapon body.

    With all of that, he had himself a fine rifle, but he was not entirely content. He had read the field reports on his guild’s weapons, and while they performed admirably, he noted that some customers wanted a weapon with more support versatility. It’s all well and good to shoot holes in your opponent, but if that opponent happens to be a juicer (or other foe who can shrug off or regenerate from wounds), you can get in real trouble real fast. So Anon developed the TK Brain Breaker round, a simple application of magic that very temporarily makes targets forget where they are and what they are doing. Targets of the Brain Breaker will frequently break off attacks entirely or stand still on the battlefield for the briefest of moments to gather their thoughts, giving shooters a great opportunity to put them down while they are distracted. Field tests were wildly successful, but the guild ultimately decided the rifle wasn’t cost effective for mass production (though it does now include the Brain Breaker feature as an option in its custom catalogue).

    Figuring he might as well go for broke (literally: even getting the parts for free from surplus at the shop, second hand, or at wholesale, the next feature was pricey), he convinced his floor boss to help him embed the ability to drain the PPE or ISP of arcane opponents on a successful hit with the rifle, giving it even more versatility. Though this was also a successful endeavor, the guild opted not offer Anon’s PPE draining feature in its catalogue for fear of offending its clientele in Stormspire.
  • Cost: As built, 50,000 (CP-50) + 5,000 (TW conversion) + 10,000 (2 minor Upgrades) + 20,000 (2 die types to Shooting) + 100,000 (confusion, activated by Shooting) + 400,000 (drain power points, activated by Shooting) = 585,000 credits.

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by RFT » Thu May 10, 2018 7:24 am

Can you please edit your submission to include the stats for the weapon in the submission as it is not from the main book.

CP-50 “Dragonfire” Laser Rifle
  • Range: 30/60/120
    Damage: 3d6+2
    ROF: 3
    Armor Piercing: 2
    Shots: 60
    Weight: 10 lbs
    Cost: 50,000
    Notes: Min Str d6, 3RB. Integrated grenade launcher (20/40/80, 12 shots, damage by grenade type) and scope with night vision and laser targeting (offset two points of range and/or darkness penalties).
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Thu May 10, 2018 7:27 am

RFT wrote:Can you please edit your submission to include the stats for the weapon in the submission as it is not from the main book.

CP-50 “Dragonfire” Laser Rifle
  • Range: 30/60/120
    Damage: 3d6+2
    ROF: 3
    Armor Piercing: 2
    Shots: 60
    Weight: 10 lbs
    Cost: 50,000
    Notes: Min Str d6, 3RB. Integrated grenade launcher (20/40/80, 12 shots, damage by grenade type) and scope with night vision and laser targeting (offset two points of range and/or darkness penalties).
Done!

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Wed May 16, 2018 6:53 am

Anyone else have comments, or does this look good? Character has been introduced in game and I'd like to finalize his gear sheet. Thanks!

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Venatus Vinco » Wed May 16, 2018 7:10 am

Does the +2 AP from trappings make total AP of 4?

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by RFT » Wed May 16, 2018 7:31 am

Venatus Vinco wrote:Does the +2 AP from trappings make total AP of 4?

VV
It should be +2 total the way I read it.
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Wed May 16, 2018 7:45 am

RFT wrote:
Venatus Vinco wrote:Does the +2 AP from trappings make total AP of 4?

VV
It should be +2 total the way I read it.
Total AP of 4. 2 from the base weapon, +2 from the minor trapping.

I used the SPC as a guide for that one, where +1 damage was worth the same as +2 AP.

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Freemage » Fri May 18, 2018 7:46 pm

AP increases are an ongoing point of debate. In baseline SW, going beyond AP 2 is usually seen as gilding the lily, because most folks rarely have more than 3 points of armor, anyway.

In SR, though, adding AP is pretty much straight-up adding Damage to a weapon--I went through Savage Foes to do a breakdown of the armor values of various generic opponents (armor values are in parenthesis, the other number is the number of generic foes who have that value in that section):

Coalition: 1 (5), 1 (4), 6 (8)
Federation: 2 (0), 1 (3), 2 (4), 3 (6), 2 (7), 2 (14), 2 (15)
Black Market: 1 (3), 2 (5)
Bandits (1st Apoc/Pecos): 1 (4), 2 (5), 1 (10)
Atlantis: 1 (6), 1 (7), 1 (10)
Mooks: 1 (0), 1 (2), 1 (3), 1 (4), 8 (5), 3 (6), 2 (7), 1 (12), 1 (18)
Monsters: 2 (0), 1 (2), 2 (4), 2 (6), 1 (9), 1 (10), 1 (12), 1 (14), 1 (16), 1 (18), 1 (20)

65 foe entries, not counting the Classic Rift Creatures entries.

Of those, 37 are Armor 6 or higher. Some of the ones who are lower are spellcasters with the Armor Power on their list, letting them easily get anywhere from +2 to +10, depending on whether they're Masters or not.

Given this, I can see no situation in which +2 AP is not infinitely superior to +1 Damage. To me, this suggests that a +2 AP mod should be a cheap Major, rather than a Minor. Say, +2 AP for 10K Credits.
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Fri May 18, 2018 8:10 pm

Freemage wrote:AP increases are an ongoing point of debate. In baseline SW, going beyond AP 2 is usually seen as gilding the lily, because most folks rarely have more than 3 points of armor, anyway.

In SR, though, adding AP is pretty much straight-up adding Damage to a weapon--I went through Savage Foes to do a breakdown of the armor values of various generic opponents (armor values are in parenthesis, the other number is the number of generic foes who have that value in that section):

Coalition: 1 (5), 1 (4), 6 (8)
Federation: 2 (0), 1 (3), 2 (4), 3 (6), 2 (7), 2 (14), 2 (15)
Black Market: 1 (3), 2 (5)
Bandits (1st Apoc/Pecos): 1 (4), 2 (5), 1 (10)
Atlantis: 1 (6), 1 (7), 1 (10)
Mooks: 1 (0), 1 (2), 1 (3), 1 (4), 8 (5), 3 (6), 2 (7), 1 (12), 1 (18)
Monsters: 2 (0), 1 (2), 2 (4), 2 (6), 1 (9), 1 (10), 1 (12), 1 (14), 1 (16), 1 (18), 1 (20)

65 foe entries, not counting the Classic Rift Creatures entries.

Of those, 37 are Armor 6 or higher. Some of the ones who are lower are spellcasters with the Armor Power on their list, letting them easily get anywhere from +2 to +10, depending on whether they're Masters or not.

Given this, I can see no situation in which +2 AP is not infinitely superior to +1 Damage. To me, this suggests that a +2 AP mod should be a cheap Major, rather than a Minor. Say, +2 AP for 10K Credits.
Sounds like this is just a better use of a minor mod, to me. :)

For what it’s worth, adding AP in the SPC (which is where I got the point breakdown that 1 damage is equivalent to 2 AP) is not gilding the lily. Super campaigns have lots of tough characters with high armor values, making it a good comparison for Rifts.

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Freemage » Fri May 18, 2018 8:24 pm

Pursuit wrote:
Freemage wrote:AP increases are an ongoing point of debate. In baseline SW, going beyond AP 2 is usually seen as gilding the lily, because most folks rarely have more than 3 points of armor, anyway.

In SR, though, adding AP is pretty much straight-up adding Damage to a weapon--I went through Savage Foes to do a breakdown of the armor values of various generic opponents (armor values are in parenthesis, the other number is the number of generic foes who have that value in that section):

Coalition: 1 (5), 1 (4), 6 (8)
Federation: 2 (0), 1 (3), 2 (4), 3 (6), 2 (7), 2 (14), 2 (15)
Black Market: 1 (3), 2 (5)
Bandits (1st Apoc/Pecos): 1 (4), 2 (5), 1 (10)
Atlantis: 1 (6), 1 (7), 1 (10)
Mooks: 1 (0), 1 (2), 1 (3), 1 (4), 8 (5), 3 (6), 2 (7), 1 (12), 1 (18)
Monsters: 2 (0), 1 (2), 2 (4), 2 (6), 1 (9), 1 (10), 1 (12), 1 (14), 1 (16), 1 (18), 1 (20)

65 foe entries, not counting the Classic Rift Creatures entries.

Of those, 37 are Armor 6 or higher. Some of the ones who are lower are spellcasters with the Armor Power on their list, letting them easily get anywhere from +2 to +10, depending on whether they're Masters or not.

Given this, I can see no situation in which +2 AP is not infinitely superior to +1 Damage. To me, this suggests that a +2 AP mod should be a cheap Major, rather than a Minor. Say, +2 AP for 10K Credits.
Sounds like this is just a better use of a minor mod, to me. :)

For what it’s worth, adding AP in the SPC (which is where I got the point breakdown that 1 damage is equivalent to 2 AP) is not gilding the lily. Super campaigns have lots of tough characters with high armor values, making it a good comparison for Rifts.
For me, if two options are priced equivalently, and one is invariably preferable to the other, you've got an issue. +2 AP for a weapon is always going to be superior to +1 Damage.

I'd actually be more willing to consider, for instance, "Major Mod: +3 AP, 10K Cr." This makes the AP cheaper than the damage on a point-per-point bases (10K for 3, rather than 5K for 1). But it requires the use of a Major Mod, which of course is more valuable 'real estate' in an item build.
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Fri May 18, 2018 8:39 pm

Freemage wrote:
Pursuit wrote:
Freemage wrote:AP increases are an ongoing point of debate. In baseline SW, going beyond AP 2 is usually seen as gilding the lily, because most folks rarely have more than 3 points of armor, anyway.

In SR, though, adding AP is pretty much straight-up adding Damage to a weapon--I went through Savage Foes to do a breakdown of the armor values of various generic opponents (armor values are in parenthesis, the other number is the number of generic foes who have that value in that section):

Coalition: 1 (5), 1 (4), 6 (8)
Federation: 2 (0), 1 (3), 2 (4), 3 (6), 2 (7), 2 (14), 2 (15)
Black Market: 1 (3), 2 (5)
Bandits (1st Apoc/Pecos): 1 (4), 2 (5), 1 (10)
Atlantis: 1 (6), 1 (7), 1 (10)
Mooks: 1 (0), 1 (2), 1 (3), 1 (4), 8 (5), 3 (6), 2 (7), 1 (12), 1 (18)
Monsters: 2 (0), 1 (2), 2 (4), 2 (6), 1 (9), 1 (10), 1 (12), 1 (14), 1 (16), 1 (18), 1 (20)

65 foe entries, not counting the Classic Rift Creatures entries.

Of those, 37 are Armor 6 or higher. Some of the ones who are lower are spellcasters with the Armor Power on their list, letting them easily get anywhere from +2 to +10, depending on whether they're Masters or not.

Given this, I can see no situation in which +2 AP is not infinitely superior to +1 Damage. To me, this suggests that a +2 AP mod should be a cheap Major, rather than a Minor. Say, +2 AP for 10K Credits.
Sounds like this is just a better use of a minor mod, to me. :)

For what it’s worth, adding AP in the SPC (which is where I got the point breakdown that 1 damage is equivalent to 2 AP) is not gilding the lily. Super campaigns have lots of tough characters with high armor values, making it a good comparison for Rifts.
For me, if two options are priced equivalently, and one is invariably preferable to the other, you've got an issue. +2 AP for a weapon is always going to be superior to +1 Damage.

I'd actually be more willing to consider, for instance, "Major Mod: +3 AP, 10K Cr." This makes the AP cheaper than the damage on a point-per-point bases (10K for 3, rather than 5K for 1). But it requires the use of a Major Mod, which of course is more valuable 'real estate' in an item build.
I think what you have are options to appeal to different preferences. I like the “punching through armor” idea for this one (not unlike the +2 AP for 1 PPE with certain trappings), but I could see someone choosing the (marginally) more reliable option of +1 damage.

And some minor mods are more powerful than others. +1 to fighting or shooting is the equivalent of an edge (TM Weapon), which is typically a Major. Same with +1 Parry (equal to Block).

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Freemage » Fri May 18, 2018 8:53 pm

Pursuit wrote:
I think what you have are options to appeal to different preferences. I like the “punching through armor” idea for this one (not unlike the +2 AP for 1 PPE with certain trappings), but I could see someone choosing the (marginally) more reliable option of +1 damage.

And some minor mods are more powerful than others. +1 to fighting or shooting is the equivalent of an edge (TM Weapon), which is typically a Major. Same with +1 Parry (equal to Block).
I really can't see anyone familiar with the setting choosing +1 Damage over +2 AP--that's kind of my point. In a Supers setting, while you can, of course, get to ridiculous levels of Armor, they are far from universal. Instead, you'll have one Tank and a couple of other characters with some solid protection; the rest of the opposition will have other specialties that AP won't help against, and most of the mooks will have little to no armor at all, so choosing AP is still a trade-off.

In this setting? The mooks have 5-6 Armor as a default. That's a big difference. My ideal would actually be a "Minor Mod: 2 AP for 10K". But the system doesn't do different prices for Minor Mods. So the option for me becomes to either make it be a Major Mod and try to make that work in terms of value, or not add an AP Mod at all.

The other reasoning you put forward actually works against you, here. As you note, Trappings that give +2 AP (but which can be blocked by a matching immunity) exist, and they cost +1 PPE. So if you want an AP-boost, you need to pay more for the Trapping, and then run the risk of the gun not working against some sort of creature. (I suggest electricity trapping--fire and cold are just too common of immunities.)
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Fri May 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Freemage wrote:
Pursuit wrote:
I think what you have are options to appeal to different preferences. I like the “punching through armor” idea for this one (not unlike the +2 AP for 1 PPE with certain trappings), but I could see someone choosing the (marginally) more reliable option of +1 damage.

And some minor mods are more powerful than others. +1 to fighting or shooting is the equivalent of an edge (TM Weapon), which is typically a Major. Same with +1 Parry (equal to Block).
I really can't see anyone familiar with the setting choosing +1 Damage over +2 AP--that's kind of my point. In a Supers setting, while you can, of course, get to ridiculous levels of Armor, they are far from universal. Instead, you'll have one Tank and a couple of other characters with some solid protection; the rest of the opposition will have other specialties that AP won't help against, and most of the mooks will have little to no armor at all, so choosing AP is still a trade-off.

In this setting? The mooks have 5-6 Armor as a default. That's a big difference. My ideal would actually be a "Minor Mod: 2 AP for 10K". But the system doesn't do different prices for Minor Mods. So the option for me becomes to either make it be a Major Mod and try to make that work in terms of value, or not add an AP Mod at all.

The other reasoning you put forward actually works against you, here. As you note, Trappings that give +2 AP (but which can be blocked by a matching immunity) exist, and they cost +1 PPE. So if you want an AP-boost, you need to pay more for the Trapping, and then run the risk of the gun not working against some sort of creature. (I suggest electricity trapping--fire and cold are just too common of immunities.)
Ok, then we call it a trapping and add a PP to the reload cost or some such. Trappings are allowed as minors. So this one does TK bolts that do +2 AP. Easy peasy.

Edit: And I get that you can’t see someone choosing +1 damage over +2 AP. That does not mean that no one would make that choice.

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Sun May 20, 2018 12:40 pm

Anyone else have views on this? Should I post a poll? I’d like to get it in play. I know Freemage has misgivings about the minor mod. Anyone else share his concerns, or are others confortable with the +2 AP? Thanks!

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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Tribe of One » Sun May 20, 2018 4:11 pm

Looks good to me. For the extra AP, the base rules already allow it as a Minor Mod by doing it as a Trapping. Yes, the +2 AP is generally better than +1 damage, but that’s balanced out by increasing the activation/reload cost by +1 PP, as well as the potential complication of a trapping.

EDIT: I think your PP cost to load/reload should be 5 PP, and maybe even 6. Base 2 + 2 (for two Major powers that activate via Shooting) +1 (Minor Mod-Add a Trapping) gets you to 5. And looking at existing TW weapons, the ones with high numbers of shots (TK machine gun, sub machine gun) all cost extra. So I’d say 6 PP to reload would be about right.

EDIT2: Are you spending EP to gain access to Coalition gear? Normally that would be required, but I don’t know how it’s been handled with regard to signature items.
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Sun May 20, 2018 5:59 pm

Tribe of One wrote:Looks good to me. For the extra AP, the base rules already allow it as a Minor Mod by doing it as a Trapping. Yes, the +2 AP is generally better than +1 damage, but that’s balanced out by increasing the activation/reload cost by +1 PP, as well as the potential complication of a trapping.

EDIT: I think your PP cost to load/reload should be 5 PP, and maybe even 6. Base 2 + 2 (for two Major powers that activate via Shooting) +1 (Minor Mod-Add a Trapping) gets you to 5. And looking at existing TW weapons, the ones with high numbers of shots (TK machine gun, sub machine gun) all cost extra. So I’d say 6 PP to reload would be about right.

EDIT2: Are you spending EP to gain access to Coalition gear? Normally that would be required, but I don’t know how it’s been handled with regard to signature items.
I hadn't factored in the extra PP for the +2 AP as a trapping yet because I hadn't gotten any feedback on whether that would work. I think 5 is right, but I won't die on a hill for 5 over 6 if that is what it comes to

As regards the CS weapon, I hadn't thought about that in the context of a signature item. I don't know if we have guidelines for what works as a base item, and I kind of thought everything was on the table. I can re-tool if needed, because I definitely do not have another 5 ep to spend on this (I'm in the red as it is!).

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Pursuit
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Mon May 21, 2018 6:38 am

OP updated and poll added. Thanks!

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High Command
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by High Command » Mon May 21, 2018 8:02 pm

seeing as he called it a scrap weapon in the description, I don't see why he'd have to pay for CS unlocks. Just choose something else for the image.

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Tribe of One
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Tribe of One » Mon May 21, 2018 9:33 pm

Yeah, paying 6 PP to load is fine by me. The 60-shot capacity of the Dragonfire is what really sets it apart from normal heat, and that addresses it.
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Freemage
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Freemage » Tue May 22, 2018 8:55 pm

Oh, and sorry for not following up--making it a Trapping and putting in the activation cost completely eliminates my concerns, thanks for that. So, now changing my vote to Approved.
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Pursuit
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Re: Multi-Assault TK Automatic Rifle - Signature Item for Re

Post by Pursuit » Wed May 23, 2018 8:32 pm

Awesome. Thanks for your input, gents!

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