Mind Melter Redux

Proposed Change to House Rules Proposal (Remember only GM Accounts may vote)

Approved (All Approved House Rules Are Subject to Play Testing)
5
83%
Approved (For Limited Play Testing Only, Approval Required for Each Character)
0
No votes
Needs Work
0
No votes
Disapproved
1
17%
Abstain
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 6

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:05 am

High Command wrote:Cause I forgot they can do it as a free action? :P I'll update it.

I might go with True Domination; though Psychic Enslavement sounds nice too. Anyone else have a preference?

If you can suggest a rewrite that maintains the intent (extras that roll a 1 and wild cards that crit fail are affected), then I not only welcome it, I'm begging for it. PLEASE.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Heracles » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:06 am

Under Speed of thought, the 3rd line says: "There is an additional -2 per rank that the power is over the rank of the Mind Melter."

There is an addition -2 what? To the roll to activate the power? The amount of power points spent?

Meditation:
If any outside attempt is made to bring the character out of the trance the hero must make a Spirit roll or be Shaken. The Mind Melter can use no powers or abilities while in this trance and any attacker is considered to be helpless.

I assume that the attacker treats the VICTIM as helpless? The wording makes it sound like the attacker is helpless.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:15 am

Some wording got lost - updated. It's to the psionics roll.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:25 am

High Command wrote:Meditation [Iconic]
Requirements: Novice, Mind Melter, Spirit d8+
Your hero may enter a trance and recover ISP at a rate 4 times greater than normal. While in this trance the Mind Melter is completely unaware of the outside world, can take no actions, and uses all of his concentration, and it lasts until the Mind Melter's I.S.P. pool is completely recovered or to a level decided by the Mind Melter at the start of the trance. If any outside attempt is made to bring the character out of the trance the hero must make a Spirit roll or be Shaken. The Mind Melter can use no powers or abilities while in this trance and any attacker is considered to be helpless.
Not sure myself if this is to fast or just right. I am considering it in combination with Ex Rapid Recharge, this would be 8 power points in 10 minutes. Worth thinking on.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:32 am

Edge----------------With Meditation -------------------- Without Meditation
None--------------------4/hr----------------------------------------1/hr
Rapid Recharge-------8/hr----------------------------------------2/hr
Imp. RR----------------16/hr---------------------------------------4/hr
Excpt RR---------------48/hr---------------------------------------12/hr

Exceptional RR is already an outlier. I see no reason to plan the median for the outlier. :P

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Radecliffe » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:40 am

Domination is a little less pervy. :D
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:44 am

Radecliffe wrote:Domination is a little less pervy. :D
To you maybe *waggles eyebrows*

I fixed that wording in Meditation about the MM being Helpless

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:00 pm

High Command wrote:Edge----------------With Meditation -------------------- Without Meditation
None--------------------4/hr----------------------------------------1/hr
Rapid Recharge-------8/hr----------------------------------------2/hr
Imp. RR----------------16/hr---------------------------------------4/hr
Excpt RR---------------48/hr---------------------------------------12/hr

Exceptional RR is already an outlier. I see no reason to plan the median for the outlier. :P
I would argue that in Game Design you always design for the outliers. However at x2 it would be too low, while at x4 it feels high, so perhaps x3?

Edge----------------With Meditation -------------------- Without Meditation
None--------------------3/hr----------------------------------------1/hr
Rapid Recharge-------6/hr----------------------------------------2/hr
Imp. RR----------------12/hr---------------------------------------4/hr
Excpt RR---------------36/hr---------------------------------------12/hr


Still a very respectable rate.


PS: Where the heck is Freemage on this one?
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Freemage » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:04 pm

RFT wrote:
High Command wrote:Edge----------------With Meditation -------------------- Without Meditation
None--------------------4/hr----------------------------------------1/hr
Rapid Recharge-------8/hr----------------------------------------2/hr
Imp. RR----------------16/hr---------------------------------------4/hr
Excpt RR---------------48/hr---------------------------------------12/hr

Exceptional RR is already an outlier. I see no reason to plan the median for the outlier. :P
I would argue that in Game Design you always design for the outliers. However at x2 it would be too low, while at x4 it feels high, so perhaps x3?

Edge----------------With Meditation -------------------- Without Meditation
None--------------------3/hr----------------------------------------1/hr
Rapid Recharge-------6/hr----------------------------------------2/hr
Imp. RR----------------12/hr---------------------------------------4/hr
Excpt RR---------------36/hr---------------------------------------12/hr


Still a very respectable rate.


PS: Where the heck is Freemage on this one?
Hell, I was thinking "Why not x5?" (The idea being that with Exceptional, that gives a 1/min recharge rate, which is wonderfully easy to track.) :lol:

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:53 pm

Woot, I'm in

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pursuit » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:35 pm

Freemage wrote:
RFT wrote:
High Command wrote:Edge----------------With Meditation -------------------- Without Meditation
None--------------------4/hr----------------------------------------1/hr
Rapid Recharge-------8/hr----------------------------------------2/hr
Imp. RR----------------16/hr---------------------------------------4/hr
Excpt RR---------------48/hr---------------------------------------12/hr

Exceptional RR is already an outlier. I see no reason to plan the median for the outlier. :P
I would argue that in Game Design you always design for the outliers. However at x2 it would be too low, while at x4 it feels high, so perhaps x3?

Edge----------------With Meditation -------------------- Without Meditation
None--------------------3/hr----------------------------------------1/hr
Rapid Recharge-------6/hr----------------------------------------2/hr
Imp. RR----------------12/hr---------------------------------------4/hr
Excpt RR---------------36/hr---------------------------------------12/hr


Still a very respectable rate.


PS: Where the heck is Freemage on this one?
Hell, I was thinking "Why not x5?" (The idea being that with Exceptional, that gives a 1/min recharge rate, which is wonderfully easy to track.) :lol:
Freemage hits the easy button.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:41 pm


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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Freemage » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:54 pm

Okay, this is my last thought, I think:

Add Mentalist to the Edges possible to take for Psionic Specialization. And then make it a pre-req for Mind Melting.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:18 pm

Mentalist is a professional edge, so its not applicable for Psionic Specialization. There are plenty of options there. I don't mind adding it as a prereq for Mind Melting - but I don't see why. I might make it a *BIT* easier to get the raise, but that's about it. The prereqs on Melting of the Minds is already significant.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:12 am

RE: Melting of the Minds
This would be the most obnoxious edge ever for a Mind Melter who worked in infiltration. You try to puppet some guy and send him end, but accidentally set him screaming in fear and those around him? I imagine it will only be popular with combat type.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Tribe of One » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:54 am

RFT wrote:RE: Melting of the Minds
This would be the most obnoxious edge ever for a Mind Melter who worked in infiltration. You try to puppet some guy and send him end, but accidentally set him screaming in fear and those around him? I imagine it will only be popular with combat type.
That was part of the reason I prefer it as an Edge, rather than Iconic ability (but still think it would be even better as a Mind Melter-only trapping).
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:41 am

RFT wrote:RE: Melting of the Minds
This would be the most obnoxious edge ever for a Mind Melter who worked in infiltration. You try to puppet some guy and send him end, but accidentally set him screaming in fear and those around him? I imagine it will only be popular with combat type.
Yeah, it's for reinforcing that primal fear people have of Mind Melters, certainly.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:40 am

Anyone have an issue with starting voting a day early?

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pursuit » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:29 am

High Command wrote:Anyone have an issue with starting voting a day early?
No issues here.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:56 am

Oh man this sounds like one of those schemes they used to come with to manipulate the polls.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:37 pm

High Command wrote:Anyone have an issue with starting voting a day early?
Gopher it.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:43 am

If you vote Needs work I need feedback.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:12 am

I voted disapprove. I can buy into everything on the list except the Meditation at 5x recovery.

If you want you can accept it and pass with my disapproval (looks like it will pass anyways) or separate out that edge and I will vote approved.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Radecliffe » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:23 am

There are a couple options:

1. Meditation and Rapid Recharge are incompatible. Take one or the other.
2. You can take both but only the best rate applies.
3. They can interact but at a reduced rate.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:58 am

Yes, it struck me as off that when I commented that x4 was too much it suddenly popped up to x5 for the final version.

I could see saying it does not sync with Exceptional Rapid Recharge and instead allows recovering 2/5 minutes or something.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:43 pm

Radecliffe wrote:There are a couple options:

1. Meditation and Rapid Recharge are incompatible. Take one or the other.
The reason a multiplier was chosen was so that we did not have to mess with the recharge rates at all. They had an out of combat multiplier that allows them to be completely helpless and recover quickly. This is NO different than spellcasters recharging off a ley line out of combat quickly. In fact this merely puts Mind Melters up there with them.
Radecliffe wrote:2. You can take both but only the best rate applies.
There is NO rate for meditation except one based on their rate of recovery. Sure if you go big into recovery you end up recovering it FAST. But to do so you have to be HELPLESS. As Rob proved in the 99's current encounter, there is no such thing as a safe time, there is just waiting for the next scene.
Radecliffe wrote:3. They can interact but at a reduced rate.
As it is a multiplier, this also makes no sense.

As to why it's at x5, Soren suggested it, and no one objected to it. The final version has not changed, and the changelog has been very studiously upkept, specifically so you don't have to pick through the entire thing for what has changed. I for one don't enjoy planning a build around extreme uses of edges. With this, a Mind Melter could get away WITHOUT a rapid recharge edge entirely. And given it is an ICONIC edge, it SHOULD have more kick than base edges. That is the point of them.

But I'm open to suggestions, in spite of all that. As long as those options are not: "Just use Rapid Recharge" (that's not the point) or "give some barely incremental bonus" (it's an Iconic edge, not a power edge)

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:54 pm

As a note I objected to Freemage's rate and proposed x3.

As a GM, if I am running an attrition scenario I can control access to ley line. I cannot control access to Meditation. The players just say you meditate, no matter what if battle happens I will use my turn to wake you first. The MM is awakened as a shaken hero and just Spirit rolls out of it. No problem, but also completely vetoing that attrition scenario.

IMHO Recovering 1 Power point per minute is just absurd even if it does require a Iconic edge to achieve.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Tribe of One » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:03 pm

As a counterbalance to PPE users sucking down ley lines, I think the x5 from Meditation is fine. But I also see Rob's issue with regard to an attrition scenario.

Spit-balling some ideas here, but what if ...

[*]MMs had to spend an extended period of time centering themselves before actually entering Meditation? Say, 30-60 minutes before the increaased rate kicks in? That way it's not as simple as, "I'm gonna sit here in the corner every spare chance I get and top off."

[*]Increase the penalty for coming out of Meditation, and especially coming out early. Maybe a level of Fatigue that can't be removed, lasts 1 minute when topped off/coming out of Meditation purposefully, 10 minutes when Meditation is disrupted?

EDIT: I've voted "Needs Work" although it's fairly minimal:

[*]In addition to the above, I think the Psychic Body Field Edge is a bit over the top, adding a total of +4 to Toughness (2 is Armor, so bypassable with AP). That's a lot more than any other Edge, even if it is contingent on activating a power. I'd walk it back a fair bit, either: Increase the bonus from the armor power by +2 and half of the total counts as Toughness, so not subject to AP; or, no increase, but the entire bonus granted by the armor power counts as Toughness.

(FWIW, I think the barrier Edge is fine.)
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Radecliffe » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:17 pm

Sorry, I didn't think I'd have to spell it out in explicit detail or perhaps you just assume I didn't read the rest of the post, I don't know.
High Command wrote:
Radecliffe wrote:There are a couple options:

1. Meditation and Rapid Recharge are incompatible. Take one or the other.
The reason a multiplier was chosen was so that we did not have to mess with the recharge rates at all. They had an out of combat multiplier that allows them to be completely helpless and recover quickly. This is NO different than spellcasters recharging off a ley line out of combat quickly. In fact this merely puts Mind Melters up there with them.
Using suggested option 1 the multiplier is determined for the recharge rate while meditating and out of meditation you recharge at 1 ISP per hour. While meditating you would recharge at 5 ISP per hour, 10 per hour, 300 per hour, etc. Whatever the rate ends up being determined to be. However, if you take mediation then you can't take the Rapid Recharge edges. This allows the recharge rate to be tailored to the desired level for Meditation without worrying about overclocking gone wild when used in combination the Rapid Recharge edges.
Radecliffe wrote:2. You can take both but only the best rate applies.
There is NO rate for meditation except one based on their rate of recovery. Sure if you go big into recovery you end up recovering it FAST. But to do so you have to be HELPLESS. As Rob proved in the 99's current encounter, there is no such thing as a safe time, there is just waiting for the next scene.
Pretty much the same as option 1 but if you go into both Meditation and one or more levels of rapid recharge you can recover ISP quicker using the Recharge edges normally or FAST using Mediation which again can be set at a higher multiplier without worrying about overclocking too much from combining the two.
Radecliffe wrote:3. They can interact but at a reduced rate.
As it is a multiplier, this also makes no sense.
I don't understand why you are saying it makes no sense. Of course it is a multiplier and so what? It doesn't need to be linear.

Base Mediation Rate x10
w/ Rapid Recharge x8 (16 per hour)
w/ Imp Rapid Recharge x6 (24 per hour)
w/ Exceptional Rapid Recharge x4 (32 per hour)

Again with option 2 you can recharge normally at whatever level of Rapid Recharge you have or even faster with meditation but in this case the combined bonus is stepped down at higher levels to control the level of overclocking without making the base level too anemic.


As to why it's at x5, Soren suggested it, and no one objected to it. The final version has not changed, and the changelog has been very studiously upkept, specifically so you don't have to pick through the entire thing for what has changed. I for one don't enjoy planning a build around extreme uses of edges. With this, a Mind Melter could get away WITHOUT a rapid recharge edge entirely. And given it is an ICONIC edge, it SHOULD have more kick than base edges. That is the point of them.

But I'm open to suggestions, in spite of all that. As long as those options are not: "Just use Rapid Recharge" (that's not the point) or "give some barely incremental bonus" (it's an Iconic edge, not a power edge)
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:52 pm

Tribe of One wrote:Spit-balling some ideas here, but what if ...

[*]MMs had to spend an extended period of time centering themselves before actually entering Meditation? Say, 30-60 minutes before the increaased rate kicks in? That way it's not as simple as, "I'm gonna sit here in the corner every spare chance I get and top off."

[*]Increase the penalty for coming out of Meditation, and especially coming out early. Maybe a level of Fatigue that can't be removed, lasts 1 minute when topped off/coming out of Meditation purposefully, 10 minutes when Meditation is disrupted?
I honestly beieve the balance for not being able to juice up is the fact that they have double the ISP of PPE users.

However, What if...


Meditation [Iconic]
Requirements: Novice, Mind Melter, Spirit d8+
You Mind Melter has learned how to tap into and draw energy even from outside his own body. While Meditation the character may draw from a Ley Line in the same manner as a character who uses PPE as an action. However, unlike other arcane characters you may not super charge to higher than your normal ISP limit.



This would close the hypothetical gap. Although the fact that psionic characters by default get double the power points from PPE users which the PPE users can get by drawing up.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:52 pm

Re: Meditation
I'm okay with enforcing limits on coming in and out to enforce attrition. Of course as a GM, I (and as a player, I'd expect Rob) would say "you can't meditate right now. Too much is going on in your head. There's simply too much at play. You try and can't center yourself. One, that signals to the players that we ARE in an attrition scenario, and two, it gives an in to a nice bit for the player to roleplay. I've been told too much is going on in my head to meditate. Hmm, I wonder what that could be. OOH, I see, I've had a flashback and I'm reliving it. Maybe if I add a mini-interlude my GM will give me an extra benny at the end of this.

If you want, I could easily add some language in there to reinforce this. This leaves the x5 recovery, but also makes it a lot harder to meditate. Note this is an Iconic edge, so it should be better than a rapid recharge edge.
  • Your hero may enter a trance and recover ISP at a rate 5 times greater than normal. While in this trance the Mind Melter is completely unaware of the outside world, can take no actions, and uses all of his concentration, and it lasts until the Mind Melter's I.S.P. pool is completely recovered or to a level decided by the Mind Melter at the start of the trance. If any outside attempt is made to bring the character out of the trance the hero must make a Spirit roll or be Shaken. The Mind Melter can use no powers or abilities while in this trance and is considered to be helpless.
    Just as not ever magic user is near a ley line, Mind Melters cannot simply meditate in any situation. Moving vehicles are horrible for meditation, as is an environment where a lot is going on. Meditation is meant to be a trance that relaxes the mind and body, but it is not simply something one gets into. It's as much about quieting the body as it is quieting the mind. As such you cannot do this while you have wound or fatigue modifiers, and you must be able to sit or lay comfortably for an extended period of time. Further a GM can rule that too much is going on in your head or environment to get into the enhanced state of relaxation required.


re: Psychic Body Field
I'm amused that you don't think TK Forcefield needs work and you do think the armor version, that gives the same basic bonuses (+4 toughness), does need work. But I digress. I actually originally had Barrier at an additional +6, but walked it back.
  • Yet another powerful manifestation of will and telekinetic strength, the Psychic Body Field provides the psionic with increased protection that makes the entire bonus from the armor power one of toughness. The greater armor power has two armor added, half of which counts as toughness, and the rest counts as M.D.C. armor. The Mind Melter simply activates her armor or greater armor power, summoning the Psychic Body Field.
I did a little of both of what you said.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:00 pm

Toss in a minimum meditation length and I would buy into this uber powerlessness.



Your hero may enter a trance and recover ISP at a rate 5 times greater than normal. While in this trance the Mind Melter is completely unaware of the outside world, can take no actions, and uses all of his concentration, and it lasts until the Mind Melter's I.S.P. pool is completely recovered or to a level decided by the Mind Melter at the start of the trance. If any outside attempt is made to bring the character out of the trance the hero must make a Spirit roll or be Shaken. The Mind Melter can use no powers or abilities while in this trance and is considered to be helpless.
Just as not ever magic user is near a ley line, Mind Melters cannot simply meditate in any situation. The process of meditation typically involves about five minutes or preparation before it begins. Moving vehicles are horrible for meditation, as is an environment where a lot is going on. Meditation is meant to be a trance that relaxes the mind and body, but it is not simply something one gets into. It's as much about quieting the body as it is quieting the mind. As such you cannot do this while you have wound or fatigue modifiers, and you must be able to sit or lay comfortably for an extended period of time. Further a GM can rule that too much is going on in your head or environment to get into the enhanced state of relaxation required.



Note: Added the sentence - The process of meditation typically involves about five minutes or preparation before it begins.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Radecliffe » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:18 pm

RFT wrote:
Tribe of One wrote:Spit-balling some ideas here, but what if ...

[*]MMs had to spend an extended period of time centering themselves before actually entering Meditation? Say, 30-60 minutes before the increaased rate kicks in? That way it's not as simple as, "I'm gonna sit here in the corner every spare chance I get and top off."

[*]Increase the penalty for coming out of Meditation, and especially coming out early. Maybe a level of Fatigue that can't be removed, lasts 1 minute when topped off/coming out of Meditation purposefully, 10 minutes when Meditation is disrupted?
I honestly beieve the balance for not being able to juice up is the fact that they have double the ISP of PPE users.

However, What if...


Meditation [Iconic]
Requirements: Novice, Mind Melter, Spirit d8+
You Mind Melter has learned how to tap into and draw energy even from outside his own body. While Meditation the character may draw from a Ley Line in the same manner as a character who uses PPE as an action. However, unlike other arcane characters you may not super charge to higher than your normal ISP limit.



This would close the hypothetical gap. Although the fact that psionic characters by default get double the power points from PPE users which the PPE users can get by drawing up.
Uh, they don't? Sure a major psionic get +10 ISP vs +5 PPE from the power points edge but a Mind Melter or a burster starts at +5 ISP over a LLW or a Mystic and they both magic users start with Rapid Recharge on top of their LL power hoovering ability.

Assuming they both take the same PP edges the Mind Melter is sitting on 60 ISP at legendary vs. 35 for a LLW or Mystic but of course the LLW can still pump up to 105 PPE if he's sitting on a LL.

I don't see the need for a psychic to recover ISP as fast as a magic user on a LL. But at the same time the discrepancy between the two doesn't need to be as big as it is.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:42 pm

Yeah lets drop meditation, the rapid recharge edges do it for me.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:46 pm

Not a fan of a misclaneous iconic edge that can be chosen in the frame work. I would just take it out and not replace it with anything.

I am not a fan of so many MM edges, I would remove completely precognitive maestro, meditation, and the body field edge.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Tribe of One » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:24 pm

High Command wrote:re: Psychic Body Field
I'm amused that you don't think TK Forcefield needs work and you do think the armor version, that gives the same basic bonuses (+4 toughness), does need work. But I digress. I actually originally had Barrier at an additional +6, but walked it back.
  • Yet another powerful manifestation of will and telekinetic strength, the Psychic Body Field provides the psionic with increased protection that makes the entire bonus from the armor power one of toughness. The greater armor power has two armor added, half of which counts as toughness, and the rest counts as M.D.C. armor. The Mind Melter simply activates her armor or greater armor power, summoning the Psychic Body Field.
I did a little of both of what you said.
Eh, barrier is expensive and not too hard to bypass, whereas boosting armor actually makes it harder to kill characters. :mrgreen: Balance-wise I'm fine with what you have, but it seems clunky to have it work differently for the normal (all Toughness) and Mega (boost plus half Toughness) versions of the power.

I tend to agree with Pender that 8 Iconic Edges is a bit much, so I'd be fine with paring down the list a bit. I'm also okay with the existence of Meditation, even at x5, as long as it's clear that the GM is expected to rule that some environments aren't conducive, but there needs to be a real risk/penalty to being jolted out early. Shaken is trivially easy to avoid/mitigate.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:48 pm

Fine we'll just dump all the iconic and power edges mentioned (there are 5 iconic and 3 power edges for those unwilling to actually read the tags) and remove both the psychic scent hindrance and the extra edge

cause we can't have MM actually APPROACH LLW in capability can we, let alone what CK or Mystic

Oh and as for too many:

Burster: Flame Blast, Improved Fiery Aura, Improved Fire Mastery, Improved Flame Bolt (Greater Flame Bolt), Rapid Flame Bolt, Read the Flame = 6
Crazy: Gun Nut, Gymnastic Mastery, Off the Handle, Split the Seconds, Sublime Chaos = 5
Cyber-Knight: Cyberkinetic Awareness (Improved Cyberkinetic Awareness, Cyberkinetic Denial), Improved Cyber-Armor (Master Cyber-Armor), Improved Psi-Sword (Master Psi-Sword), Psi-Shield = 8
Juicer: Burn Brighter (Burn for Glory), Burn Past the Pain (Burn for Tomorrow), Freshly Juiced, Gymnastic Mastery, Split the Seconds (Burn Faster) = 7

Version 2.0 is up
out with the old
This cooperative effort is meant to replace the Mind Melter as presented in the Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide, pages 34 and 35. It is markedly more powerful than the original, but not overpoweringly so. It is meant to reflect the versatility of the original and incorporates what were some powers into class features.

CHANGELOG - TLDR, what’s changed?
v. 1.1
Added one extra HJ roll
Alter Aura was added to Expanded Awareness and renamed (about half an edge); Also, Expanded Awareness is different.
Melting of the Minds was added (about an edge)
Mental Resistance has an added bonus (about half an edge)
Speed of Thought was added (about an edge)
Master Psionic was renamed Super Psionic. Also Danger Sense and Sixth Sense were added.
A Major Hindrance (Strong Psychic Scent) was added

v. 1.11
Speed of thought has an additional limitation involving rank of the power vs the MM's rank.
Intimidating Aura was modified.
Meditation was revised to be more clear
Precognitive Maestro has divinitation as a rereq now.
Psychic Domination had this added to the power: The power may be maintained with I.S.P. once the initial duration runs out. Also Added Spirit d8 requirement. Also increased penalty to Vigor checks to -2.
True Puppet has been clarified.

v. 1.12
Alter and See Aura have some wording clarifications (Arcana, not Arcane)
Melting of the Minds has added fluff to help explain the intent better.
Speed of Thought changed to once per round.
Strong Psychic Scent has been changed to Strong Psychic Aura and has had its mechanics change.
v. 1.13
Alter and See Aura, Mega versions are free actions.
Mental Resistance has added fluff to better explain itself.
Melting of the Minds made an Iconic Edge. Psionic Specialization Added in its place.
Strong Psychic Aura had this added at the end: "In addition, Mental Resistance does not apply to detect arcana. Arcane Resistance still does apply."
Meditation changed to x5 ISP recovery.
v. 1.14
Renamed True Puppet and cleaned up language a bit, removing ambiguity.

PSYCHIC POWERHOUSE: MIND MELTER

Imagine a person’s liquified brain oozing forth from their ears, mouth, and nose. For many this is exactly the image invoked when the think of the awesome psychics known as Mind Melters. The name Mind Melter itself developed on the streets but it was the Coalition propaganda machine that made the term universal. In a concerted campaign to turn the public against these “Dominator class psychics” they cemented the name, and the stigma, in the public’s mind. Despite the reputation that precedes them most Mind Melters generally wear the name like a badge of honor, reveling in the respect and (far more often) fear their very presence generates. Even the ones with a more noble or gentle intent grasp just how terrifying their powerful minds are.

Mind Melters are masters of manipulating psionic energies. Only experience and training limits what they are capable of. To them, the energies of every mind create a tapestry depicting the past and the future, as well as all possible present moments, and they can grab any thread they like, tug it out of order, and rethread it as they will.

Some use this power for benevolent purposes, trying to defend the weak and make the world a better place. Others seek only personal power and aggrandizement. All must use their strange
abilities, however, for the constant thrum of power in their very soul cannot be denied.

HERO’S JOURNEY (FIVE ROLLS)

Mind Melters get three rolls on any of the following tables: Enchanted Items & Mystic Gadgets, Experience & Wisdom, or Psionics. They also get two additional roll on any table except Cybernetics or Magic & Mysticism.

A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO MELT

Mind Melters are the epitome of the Master Psionic, beginning with extraordinary power and developing more of it over time. They possess the core powers of the Arcane Background (Psionics), and can take Master Psionic Powers as well. While they do not possess the Burster’s capacity for raw devastation, they have an extraordinarily wide array of capabilities they can bring to bear in almost any situation.

Mind Melters are highly resistant to psionic abilities, making them excellent partners to have along when dealing with inherently psionic beings and monsters. Like Bursters, Mind Melters tend to be confident in their own powers, rarely depending on mundane armor and weapons. They enjoy using Techno-Wizard devices when they can acquire them. Like any psionic, they can power such items with their ISP instead of the usual PPE required.

Mind Melters have the definitive list of powers for the Psionics Arcane Background:
armor, barrier, blind, bolt, boost/lower Trait, clairvoyance, confusion, damage field, darksight, deflection, disguise, dispel, divination, drain Power Points, entangle, environmental protection, farsight, fear, fly, havoc, healing, illusion, intangibility, invisibility, mind reading, pummel, puppet, slow, slumber, smite, speak language, stun, telekinesis, telepathy, teleport, warrior’s gift. This, plus detect/conceal arcana, is the same list for others with the Arcane Background (Psionics) Edge.

MIND MELTER ABILITIES AND BONUSES
  • See and Alter Aura: Mind Melters can use conceal arcana and detect arcana, with no ISP cost, as a free action on their turn. She must pay ISP as normal to use the Exalted version of either power, though they are still free actions.

    Arcane Background (Psionics): A Mind Melter begins with a great knowledge and understanding of psionics. She begins with five powers from the list above, 20 ISP, and a d8 Psionics skill.

    Major Psionics: Mind Melters have the Major Psionic edge and can spend 2 ISP to gain a +1 with any Psionic skill roll, or 4 ISP for a +2 (paid before the roll is made). These effects are doubled when on a ley line. Each time they take the Power Points edge, she gains +10 ISP (instead of 5).

    Mental Resistance: A Mind Melter's protective sixth sense applies to much more than simply warning against attacks. It also helps to erect psionic shields that provide +4 to all checks to resist psionic effects, and +4 armor against psionic damage. This stacks with Arcane Resistance.
    On occasion, when pushed, it can do more than that. By spending a benny, this resistance can apply to any opposed power regardless of the arcane source.

    Psionic Specialization: What defines a particular Mind Melter is often quite varied. You may choose one Iconic or Power edge you qualify for.

    Speed of Thought: Mind Melters can pull out all the stops to really gain the advantage by using their psychic prowess to activate powers at the speed of thought. This ability allows the Mind Melter to use any power they know as a free action. There are three limitations to this talent:
    • Only one power can be used per turn as a Free action using this ability. (Does not limit powers restricted with a trapping that makes them a free action.)
      This can be done a number of times per session equal to half their Spirit die.
      There is a penalty of -2 per rank that the power is over the rank of the Mind Melter, to the Psionics roll to activate the power.
    Super Psionic: A Mind Melter has the Master Psionic Edge, gaining all the Mega Powers associated with his selected powers. Additionally, the Mind Melter has the Danger Sense and Sixth Sense edges.
MIND MELTER COMPLICATIONS
  • A Little Odd: Though hardly as far gone as a Crazy, Mind Melters tend to be a little different due to the nature of their powers. Each Mind Melter begins with the Quirk Hindrance.

    Cybernetics: No remotely sane Mind Melter would allow any cybernetics to ruin their carefully tuned mind or body. Medical necessity might dictate otherwise, but such characters suffer −1 to the Psionics skill for each point of Strain.

    Enemies: Mind Melters not working for the Coalition’s Psi-Battalion are shot on sight by all Coalition troops, then shot again to be certain they’re dead. Those working for the Coalition don’t usually lack for enemies or prejudice. True Federation folks also tend to hate them.

    Feared: Though it’s possible to hide his true nature, if the general populace discovers the presence of a Mind Melter, they tend to be very nervous—and possibly outright terrified. Mind Melters suffer a −2 Charisma when dealing with those who fear them.

    Strong Psychic Aura: All Mind Melters have a strong psychic aura. Dogboys and Psi-stalkers (and those like them) find them easier to sense. Anyone using detect arcana against a Mind Melter gains a +1 bonus to the roll for every power the Mind Melter has activated or maintained since the start of his last turn. This bonus also applies to opposed rolls when the Mind Melter is using conceal arcana to remain hidden. In addition, Mental Resistance does not apply to detect arcana. Arcane Resistance still does apply.
ICONIC FRAMEWORK STARTING GEAR

SFD Huntsman Lightweight Personal Armor, NG-33 Laser Pistol, NG-S2 Survival Pack, 4d6 × 100 credits.






New/Revised Iconic Edges
  • Intimidating Aura [Power]
    Requirements: Mind Melter, telepathy, Intimidate d6+, Seasoned
    While the Mind Melter has telepathy active, the Mind Melter can, for the power’s duration, add the value of any of his negative Charisma modifiers (including any situational modifiers) as a bonus on Intimidation checks, as she is surrounded by a barely perceptible aura of domination and fear.

    Meditation [Iconic]
    Requirements: Novice, Mind Melter, Spirit d8+
    Your hero may enter a trance and recover ISP at a rate 5 times greater than normal. While in this trance the Mind Melter is completely unaware of the outside world, can take no actions, and uses all of his concentration, and it lasts until the Mind Melter's I.S.P. pool is completely recovered or to a level decided by the Mind Melter at the start of the trance. If any outside attempt is made to bring the character out of the trance the hero must make a Spirit roll or be Shaken. The Mind Melter can use no powers or abilities while in this trance and is considered to be helpless.

    Melting of the Minds [Iconic]
    Requirements: Mind Melter, Mentalist, Spirit d8, Psionics d10, mind reading or stun power, Veteran
    Not every Mind Melter lives up to the terrifying lies the Coalition propaganda machine would have you believe, but yours does. When a Mind Melter uses one of her powers that can be resisted, she puts her entire will and the totality of her experience behind it. Sometimes, she creates a greater link between her and her target. Such a link is rarely good for the target of one of these powers. When resisting Mind Melter powers if the target that rolls a 1 or less on his roll to resist, after any modifiers, is shaken as his mind begins to “melt” against the Mind Melter’s mental onslaught. On a raise, a target that rolls a 1 or less on his roll to resist, after any modifiers, cries a terrible scream as his mind is invaded by the Mind Melter, who channels her own experiences and imagination to his mind, adding her psychic oomph to the verbal cry. The shockwave of this psychically backed scream causes the target to be shaken along with all of his allies in a Large Burst Template who fail a Spirit roll as his baleful cry and the emanating psychic wave hits them.

    Precognitive Maestro [Iconic]
    Requirements: Mind Melter, divination power, Seasoned
    As a free action that may be done on any turn, spend a Benny to replace any Trait roll with Smarts.

    Psychic Body Field [Power]
    Requirements: Mind Melter, armor power, Veteran
    Yet another powerful manifestation of will and telekinetic strength, the Psychic Body Field provides the psionic with increased protection that adds 2 armor and 2 toughness to that provided by the power. The Mind Melter simply activates her armor or greater armor power, summoning the Psychic Body Field.

    Psychic Domination [Iconic]
    Requirements: Mind Melter, puppet power, Spirit d8, Seasoned
    Possessed of incredible will and the ability to control the minds of others, a Mind Melter can use the puppet power without using ISP. Each time he uses it, she must make a Vigor roll to resist gaining a level of Fatigue. The power may be maintained with I.S.P. once the initial duration runs out. Each subsequent use of the power imposes a cumulative −2 penalty on the Vigor check until she gets a full night’s rest (eight hours). It is possible for a Mind Melter to Incapacitate herself with this ability. Fatigue levels gained from Psychic Domination can only be recovered with eight hours of rest (succor cannot restore). Mind control must be activated normally.
    • Psychic Ensnarement [Iconic]
      Requirements: Psychic Domination edge, Legendary
      A Mind Melter can control minds for an extended period of time. He does this by reducing his maximum ISP by the cost of the Mind Control power (6 ISP) and suffering a −1 penalty on all other actions for each person under his control. The being remains bound to his service until he releases it, no matter the distance, or the dominated person is Incapacitated (in either case, freeing the person from psychic servitude). As usual, any time a target is forced to do something completely against his nature, he gains a new opposed roll to break control. As per Mind Control, a success enables him to resist the action, doing nothing instead. A raise means he’s completely free of this ability.
    Telekinetic Force Field [Power]
    Requirements: Mind Melter, barrier power, Veteran
    When activating the barrier power, the Mind Melter adds 4 armor to the power. To stalwart walls it adds +2 toughness and +2 armor, which remains M.D.C. The Mind Melter simply activates her barrier or stalwart walls power, summoning the Telekinetic Force Field which reinforces the barrier.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:43 pm

Thanks Patrick. Good point. Go for broke on those iconic edges.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Tribe of One » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:37 pm

Technically none of the Edges should have the Power tag. By definition, any Edge that requires you to be a specific Iconic Framework is an Iconic Edge, per the TLPG.

And changed my vote to approved. And still willing to consider Meditation.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:43 pm

So where are we at with meditation
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:55 pm

Propose a new one, because what was there didn't work, obviously. My attempt at providing what should be obvious limits was not enough. I kept the entire 1.xx post above, so you can start from that.

I had them with Power because I was going to ask if we should open them up beyond MM, but I wanted them balanced first.

Here's what was there:

Code: Select all

[b][size=150]Meditation [Iconic][/size][/b]
[u]Requirements[/u]: Novice, Mind Melter, Spirit d8+
Your hero may enter a trance and recover ISP at a rate 5 times greater than normal. While in this trance the Mind Melter is completely unaware of the outside world, can take no actions, and uses all of his concentration, and it lasts until the Mind Melter's I.S.P. pool is completely recovered or to a level decided by the Mind Melter at the start of the trance. If any outside attempt is made to bring the character out of the trance the hero must make a Spirit roll or be Shaken. The Mind Melter can use no powers or abilities while in this trance and is considered to be helpless.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:09 pm

BTW having created one, I think we should bring back the Power Edge only version of Psionic Specialization and make Speed of Thought an Iconic Edge. But as I doubt I'd get the yes votes for that, we'll go as is.

I'm probably more annoyed at having to build for "power" than concept though. This character feels flat to me, though I'm certain it's more powerful than anything I've created. 6 powers, 30 ISP, Mentalist and Elan. I'd need to sell the armor, buy Medium Ley Line Walker Armor, and a Neural Mace.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:03 am

Changed to Approved. We can tackle Meditation later if you care, or abandon it. I am fine with either option.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:25 am

High Command wrote:BTW having created one, I think we should bring back the Power Edge only version of Psionic Specialization and make Speed of Thought an Iconic Edge. But as I doubt I'd get the yes votes for that, we'll go as is.

I'm probably more annoyed at having to build for "power" than concept though. This character feels flat to me, though I'm certain it's more powerful than anything I've created. 6 powers, 30 ISP, Mentalist and Elan. I'd need to sell the armor, buy Medium Ley Line Walker Armor, and a Neural Mace.
Sounds good to me. Could we drop sixth sense, and make psionic specialization 2 power edges?
I would be fine moving SoT to iconic.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Radecliffe » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:50 am

Why keep trying to get rid of Sixth Sense? It is like one of THE iconic abilities of a Classic Mind Melter.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:51 am

Radecliffe wrote:Why keep trying to get rid of Sixth Sense? It is like one of THE iconic abilities of a Classic Mind Melter.
Agree
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Muskrat Jack » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:20 am

So for psychic body field is half the increase converted to toughness or half the entire benefit?
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:12 am

The idea is that armor is 100% converted to Toughness, and greater armor gets 2 added and then half is toughness, and half is MDC armor; Both were options that Tribe gave

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:18 pm

RFT wrote:
Radecliffe wrote:Why keep trying to get rid of Sixth Sense? It is like one of THE iconic abilities of a Classic Mind Melter.
Agree
Is sixth sense a power edge?
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:27 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:
RFT wrote:
Radecliffe wrote:Why keep trying to get rid of Sixth Sense? It is like one of THE iconic abilities of a Classic Mind Melter.
Agree
Is sixth sense a power edge?
Yes
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Muskrat Jack » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:23 am

I have to say that I think this redux looks very good so kudos to you all who put the effort in.

One thing I wanted to suggest is to give energy control a little boost when used by a mind melter.

Right now it says you need to spend telekinesis ISP cost every time you use one of the special abilities. That can get quite expensive for effects that other powers such as burst can do better-but mind melters do not get burst so...

Pyrokinesis (Power)
Requirements: Energy Control: Fire
You no longer need to spend the telekinesis power point cost when using any of the major effects listed under Energy Control


That’s just an example but it should be made more generic to cover all the Kinesis types.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Beacon » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:08 pm

Hello,

I know I not a player on the site, but I posted these edges over at the G+ Community for the Mind Melter. Since you all are working on some updates for your SavageRifts.com games, I thought I would share them.

Mind Melter Iconic Edges

Mind jabs
Requirements: Mind melter, novice, smarts d6, taunt or intimidate d6
This mind melter can tap into their natural psionic abilities to intimidate, taunt, or trick an enemy. As an action for 1 power point, against a target within line of sight (must be natural line of sight, no binoculars or videos through drones) the mind melter can initiate either a test of wills or a smarts trick, using the mind meters Psionics skills for the opposed skill check. This can be modified by any edges that effects test of wills or smarts tests. A roll of a 1 on the psionics trait roll still causes brain burn.

Mental Judo
Requirements: Mind melter, seasoned, mind jab
When the mind melter succeeds with a test of wills from Mind Jab, each raise adds a level of fatigue to the target. This ability cost an additional power point.

Melted Mind
Requirements: Mind melter, veteran, mental judo
When a mind melter succeeds at a test of wills from Mind Jab, each raise causes a wound to the target. This ability costs 2 additional power points. This edge cannot be used along with mental judo.

Mental Dervish
Requirements: Mind Melter, heroic, melted mind.
A mind melter with this edge for 2 additional power points can use mind jab against all targets within a medium burst template within Smarts x 10 feet. Applying either mental judo or melted mind would apply the power point cost per target. So a area mental jab with mental judo against 4 targets would most cost 7 power points total.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Radecliffe » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:59 am

Beacon wrote:Hello,

I know I not a player on the site, but I posted these edges over at the G+ Community for the Mind Melter. Since you all are working on some updates for your SavageRifts.com games, I thought I would share them.

Mind Melter Iconic Edges

Mind jabs
Requirements: Mind melter, novice, smarts d6, taunt or intimidate d6
This mind melter can tap into their natural psionic abilities to intimidate, taunt, or trick an enemy. As an action for 1 power point, against a target within line of sight (must be natural line of sight, no binoculars or videos through drones) the mind melter can initiate either a test of wills or a smarts trick, using the mind meters Psionics skills for the opposed skill check. This can be modified by any edges that effects test of wills or smarts tests. A roll of a 1 on the psionics trait roll still causes brain burn.

Mental Judo
Requirements: Mind melter, seasoned, mind jab
When the mind melter succeeds with a test of wills from Mind Jab, each raise adds a level of fatigue to the target. This ability cost an additional power point.

Melted Mind
Requirements: Mind melter, veteran, mental judo
When a mind melter succeeds at a test of wills from Mind Jab, each raise causes a wound to the target. This ability costs 2 additional power points. This edge cannot be used along with mental judo.

Mental Dervish
Requirements: Mind Melter, heroic, melted mind.
A mind melter with this edge for 2 additional power points can use mind jab against all targets within a medium burst template within Smarts x 10 feet. Applying either mental judo or melted mind would apply the power point cost per target. So a area mental jab with mental judo against 4 targets would most cost 7 power points total.
Requiring Intimidate or Taunt for Mind Jab just seems like a skill tax to me since you wouldn't actually be using the skill in the first place. Also really not a fan of adding yet another instance where the Mind Melter suffers brain burn.

As an alternative I'd suggest making this a power edge using telepathy rather than using skills for a prereq.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Beacon » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:53 pm

It is a skill tax, but those are the skills required to use the test of wills or smart trick combat options. Perhaps the novice level of this tree allows the mind melter to accomplish those tests at range using the normal skills. Perhaps the next level allows the psionics skill to replace it. I prefer to keep it an iconic edge because it is intended to make match up with the mind melter lore of them killing with a thought unseen.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Thu May 03, 2018 10:48 am

ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT!

Friends, Gamers, and Scoundrels.

So VV and I were talking about ARES Protocol and what had impressed him most about the SPC system, and it led to "what the Mind Melter lacks." Cause you know, we both play Mind Melters and we both acknowledge they can truly suck. Anyway, we were close before (I wasn't happy about how things were going with the Mind Melter tbh) so I don't think anyone should have much of an issue with this revision. Except maybe Pender, because Pender is Pender.

Changelog:
Mind Melter v. 2.1
Removed Speed of Thought as a feature and made it a Veteran Iconic Edge. Iconic and Exclusive Power Edges are now 7, equal to the Cyber-Knight.
Added Psionic Mastery (Power Stunts from SPC) and Tricks of the Mind (Power Tricks from SPC) to replace it.

VV asked me to include the full rules for Power Tricks so there'd be no questions about what it does. I've done so below. Moving Speed of Thought from being a feature to being an options means it doesn't have to be something every Mind Melter can do, forcing GMs to account for it. But it becomes "an" option they can get.

And before anyone asks: NOTE!!! House Rules is on Hiatus until some behind the scenes stuff is accomplished. VV will announce when it will open up again. All current topics are still up for debate and vote, however. Also, comment on how it exists, not what has come before please.

So does everyone still approve?
POWER TRICKS
When a power affects a target, either as an attack or a resisted effect, a hero may use any of the Power Tricks below by describing the action and taking a –2 penalty to the active skill (or the victim adds +2 to his resistance roll if there is no active roll on the part of the attacker, like fear). If successful, the power works as usual and the Trick chosen from the list below is triggered as well.
Any effect may be used at any time with a good rationale and the Game Master’s permission—a character doesn’t have to choose the same effect each time. Exactly how it works is a matter of description. Lower Defenses might mean encircling the target in smoky blackness via energy control (darkness) so that he can’t see incoming attacks. A radiation blast (ranged attack) might cause
dizziness (Lower Trait for Agility) or weakness (Vigor). Or an earthquake might setup a villain for a follow-up ranged attack. It’s all in the description.
•Delay: The victim must trade his current Action Card with the next character lower than him (he can’t trade with a character on Hold). If the victim already acted this round, the trade occurs on the following round unless the target gets the Joker (which negates the effect).
•Lower Defenses: The target’s Parry is lowered by 2 until his next action. This is simply a different way to successfully perform the Trick maneuver (see Savage Worlds), so it does not stack with a regular Trick.
•Lower Trait: One of the target’s attributes and all linked skills suffer a –2 penalty on
his next action.
•Setup: Allies get a +2 bonus against the victim until his next action.
•Slow: The target’s Pace is halved on his next action.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu May 03, 2018 10:56 am

I have very large concerns about Power Mastery and Tricks combining all at once. If that is allowed in game a Mind Melter could end up being useful, and I do not think i would allow that.

I would knock off an elective HJ roll if the current version 2.1 were to pass.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu May 03, 2018 11:02 am

I was asked to elaborate.

I Approve the changes of 2.1, but suggest going to 4 Heroes Journey instead of 5 with the potency of the Tricks and Power Stunts doing a lot to close the gap.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu May 03, 2018 12:55 pm

High Command wrote: Trick of the Mind: The Mind Melter may spend 2 ISP to add the following Power Tricks to any power they use that turn..
  • Delay: The victim must trade his current Action Card with the next character lower than him (he can’t trade with a character on Hold). If the victim already acted this round, the trade occurs on the following round unless the target gets the Joker (which negates the effect).
    Lower Defenses: The target’s Parry is lowered by 2 until his next action. This is simply a different way to successfully perform the Trick maneuver (see Savage Worlds), so it does not stack with a regular Trick.
    Lower Trait: One of the target’s attributes and all linked skills suffer a –2 penalty on his next action.
    Setup: Allies get a +2 bonus against the victim until his next action.
    Slow: The target’s Pace is halved on his next action.
I think the "This is a Trick" language should be moved to the header line so it applies to everything like the following.


Trick of the Mind: The Mind Melter may spend 2 ISP to add the following Power Tricks to any power they use that turn. These are enhanced versions of Tricks and Tests of Will and the modifiers do not stack with other Tricks or Tests of Will. Likewise this trick effect is resisted with a relevant opposed roll.
  • Delay: The victim must trade his current Action Card with the next character lower than him (he can’t trade with a character on Hold). If the victim already acted this round, the trade occurs on the following round unless the target gets the Joker (which negates the effect).
    Lower Defenses: The target’s Parry is lowered by 2 until his next action. .
    Lower Trait: One of the target’s attributes and all linked skills suffer a –2 penalty on his next action.
    Setup: Allies get a +2 bonus against the victim until his next action.
    Slow: The target’s Pace is halved on his next action.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Thu May 03, 2018 1:05 pm

Changed to disapproved. Honestly as much as I want to change it and I have ran villians using the new rules. Wow, 1 MM WC is pretty honcho with the new rules. So much so I had to restrain myself from wiping the floor with 2 different groups. I am good with the core MM.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu May 03, 2018 1:20 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:Changed to disapproved. Honestly as much as I want to change it and I have ran villians using the new rules. Wow, 1 MM WC is pretty honcho with the new rules. So much so I had to restrain myself from wiping the floor with 2 different groups. I am good with the core MM.
Yes, that Vampress was kicking our butts.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Venatus Vinco » Thu May 03, 2018 4:00 pm

RFT wrote:[These are enhanced versions of Tricks and Tests of Will and the modifiers do not stack with other Tricks or Tests of Will. Likewise this trick effect is resisted with a relevant opposed roll.
I can live with this...does this mean Strong Willed applies?

To Jon's point, if the original redux is too powerful these changes dial back the power and add utility- well tested utility too given they are from the super power rules.

I am not saying we need to adopt it, but it is fun to think about. Seems like a simple layer to add on to go from vanilla to rocky road.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Venatus Vinco » Thu May 03, 2018 4:01 pm

RFT wrote:I Approve the changes of 2.1, but suggest going to 4 Heroes Journey instead of 5 with the potency of the Tricks and Power Stunts doing a lot to close the gap.
That makes sense.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu May 03, 2018 4:17 pm

Venatus Vinco wrote:
RFT wrote:[These are enhanced versions of Tricks and Tests of Will and the modifiers do not stack with other Tricks or Tests of Will. Likewise this trick effect is resisted with a relevant opposed roll.
I can live with this...does this mean Strong Willed applies?

To Jon's point, if the original redux is too powerful these changes dial back the power and add utility- well tested utility too given they are from the super power rules.

I am not saying we need to adopt it, but it is fun to think about. Seems like a simple layer to add on to go from vanilla to rocky road.

VV
Yes, Strong Will should apply to tricks against Smarts or Spirit. but i would also allow mentalist to apply to the Mind Melters roll.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu May 03, 2018 4:19 pm

I just realized that some of these "Tricks" will become available with the Psionics skill at no cost once Black is released. So this will effectively become like paying 2 ISP for a free trick. Is two ISP the right price for that? i think so, but something to consider.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Freemage » Thu May 03, 2018 4:28 pm

RFT wrote:I just realized that some of these "Tricks" will become available with the Psionics skill at no cost once Black is released. So this will effectively become like paying 2 ISP for a free trick. Is two ISP the right price for that? i think so, but something to consider.
Well, that assumes Black is going to keep the FG rules intact. There's a LOT of feedback flying at Pinnacle right now, and I suspect it's all being considered heavily. And, for that matter, how that affects SR is going to be another issue.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Thu May 03, 2018 4:34 pm

Lay time we talked about it in the GM hangout, it was pretty clear Black will replace SWD.

Do you think that will change?
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by Freemage » Fri May 04, 2018 2:15 pm

RFT wrote:Lay time we talked about it in the GM hangout, it was pretty clear Black will replace SWD.

Do you think that will change?
I think that Black, when it actually comes out, will replace the SWD. However, I think it's highly likely that the "Changes to Core Rules" in Flash Gordon, which everyone is assuming previews SW Black, will be subject to further review based on player feedback.

Furthermore, depending on what the actual changes are, integrating those with existing SR products (especially Mega-Powers) will probably require some analysis, though it's possible Pinnacle will mostly leave that up to individual groups, and just stick to the new rules going forward.

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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by RFT » Fri May 04, 2018 3:03 pm

That is a fair point of view. And Clint and Shane did make it clear that this is a way to test rules before changing the core rules. I guess they've done it before but I don't know the specific examples. However I'm hoping to keep the new test of wills and trick rules.
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Re: Mind Melter Redux

Post by High Command » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:02 pm

This is on hold until Second Wave of Savage Rifts comes out and then we'll look at it.

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