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I would advise against removing either option.

They both have some okay uses. Perhaps instead use the following wording.

"GM Permission required prior to use, discouraged on dramatic tasks"

RFT wrote:I would advise against removing either option.

They both have some okay uses. Perhaps instead use the following wording.

"GM Permission required prior to use, discouraged on dramatic tasks"

PS: For the record I am biased as I was hoping to use Always a Hero to get a drone this quarter Pender was helping me build..

I'm less fond of these options going away. I do not see where they hurt anything. I AM okay with the idea of buying out any patrons with autoraises with EP they can spend and changing the Patron rewards, but removing these options seems needlessly strict. I literally just use Always a Hero to buy the Sidekick Edge when it was dramatically appropriate in game.

RFT wrote:

RFT wrote:I would advise against removing either option.

They both have some okay uses. Perhaps instead use the following wording.

"GM Permission required prior to use, discouraged on dramatic tasks"

PS: For the record I am biased as I was hoping to use Always a Hero to get a drone this quarter Pender was helping me build..

I have it on firsthand knowledge that Pender can probably make that happen without having to use EP. Bizarro Alex in the 13th is just such a sidekick that didn't EP. It fit the story and only turned Max into a bloodthirsty cold killer to get it, but ya gotta pay the piper.

Added a poll to this thread.

Amended the menu items to be proposed.

Have your say (if you have multiple accounts, vote with only one).

VV

Always a Hero doesn't bother me in the slightest, and I'd be fine with it staying. If anything, I think it takes the pressure off to use every possible starting slot on advanced Edges, to the exclusion of more flavorful/appropriate starting Edges.

I am not a fan of Auto-Aces, and I'm fine with them going away.

Voted. I'm okay with leaving the options there, but subject to GM discretion. There are times where the story fits to leave the option available for Always a Hero. Maybe less so on auto-aces, particularly with the wealth of options available to either add a flat bonus to the roll or to buy additional bennies for extra effort / rerolls. Still, if EP menu options are even an option, I don't think they need to be cut out entirely. Just leave it up to the GM. GMs should be encouraged to run their game the way they see fit, and shouldn't feel bad about saying no to auto-aces and/or Always a Hero, if they have a particular beef against those options.

As a note for Auto Aces, I have been waffling.

I know there are situations where they can ruin the fun people are having. But I have been both for them and against them so my vote can be ignored on that one. But for Always a Hero i honestly felt like L.C. and Hardin would be well within the flavor of the game to turn their allies into Wild Cards by choosing a Sidekick edge.

I know Freemage has strong feelings on Always a Hero and Pender really dislikes Auto-aces so we should make sure we wait until both have opined on this.

As with most things, I think “with GM approval” and “don’t ask for the moon” are pretty good guidelines for whatever a player might want to do. I like both options, as long as they don’t break up the flow of the game. Voted.

Auto aces rock. Keep them. Thought: this is a temporary thing that encourages awesome moves. Like an Uber Benny.

Always a hero is kind of lame. Ditch it. This is permanent and negates the whole reason for xp and advancement and is dumb.

Yeah, don't ask for the Moon is the thing. For one I would not let folks take the legendary Professional Edges. I'm not fond of it for any starting character actually. Personal preference. But some of those really cool, really situational, and really dramatically appropriate edges? Yeah go for it. I'd have probably said yes in a home game anyway.

Nobody uses them in my game, though maybe i need to be harsher on my players

Okay, so, yeah, this is my dream-modification of the list.

At a bare minimum, Always a Hero should've been barred to Dragons. The fact that they have to earn each and every Rank in order to access their Edges is a key balance for them against the raw power of their base level.

Similarly, I feel that CritFails--the possibility that no matter how damned skilled you are, SOMETHING can go wrong, is another balance factor to the system. Being able to bypass it on any given roll by investing a couple EP pretty much takes the teeth out of it.

Tribe: You say that now--but note that you also disallowed Dragons in your game entirely. Always a Hero + Dragon is singularly horrific in terms of game balance, because one of the very few drawbacks to Dragons is that they cannot use Born a Hero, even with their creation points (because they only get them after they start play).

And yes, I know, "You can always tell the player no." I have an aversion to anything that pushes us to a divide between 'nice' GMs and 'mean' ones.

Freemage wrote:At a bare minimum, Always a Hero should've been barred to Dragons. The fact that they have to earn each and every Rank in order to access their Edges is a key balance for them against the raw power of their base level.

Similarly, I feel that CritFails--the possibility that no matter how damned skilled you are, SOMETHING can go wrong, is another balance factor to the system. Being able to bypass it on any given roll by investing a couple EP pretty much takes the teeth out of it.

I think these are both really good points.




I do not really care about auto ace, but...

How about wrote: Auto Ace: You dice automatically has the maximum value of the die as if aced and you roll again. If you roll snake eyes you still critical fail. (GM permission required prior to rolling.)

Instead of calling it Auto-Ace, call it something else, then, so that there's no hemming about the terminology. Perhaps "Momentary Brilliance: Add the base die-type to any Trait roll." I could get behind that.

Oh, and since I'm making this convo more complicated, anyway, perhaps replace Always a Hero with, "Always a Student: When taking a Skill Advance, you may buy two new Skills at d4 each."

Freemage wrote: "Always a Student: When taking a Skill Advance, you may buy two new Skills at d4 each."

I want Clint to realize this is not 1976 anymore and just make this a rule in Savage Worlds Black edition.

How about...


Always a Hero!
All our characters are born a hero and most of them even stay that way. This purchase allows you to select an Edge above your current rank. Of course you must have an advance and all necessary prerequisites.
Special Restrictions: This option requires GM approval and cannot be used for Hatchling Dragons or other Iconic Frameworks restricted from Born a Hero.
(3 EP) Seasoned
(5 EP) Veteran
(7 EP) Heroic
(10 EP) Legendary


(1 or 2 EP) Grace: Add +2 to any Trait Roll. (Requires GM Notification prior to rolling, cannot stack with other options from this list)
(2 or 3 EP) Inspired: Add +4 to any Trait Roll. (Requires GM Notification prior to rolling, cannot stack with other options from this list)
(3 or 4 EP) Momentary Brilliance: Add the base die-type to any Trait roll. (Requires GM Notification prior to rolling, cannot stack with other options from this list)


(5 EP) Always a Student: When taking a Skill Advance, you may buy two new Skills at d4 each.


Prices adjusted based on feedback.


Note the price of this is in dispute and needs to be worked on.

Feemage,

If we removed Always a Hero all together, would you still think it is valid for GM fiat or would that in your mind make the character invalid?

Still don't care for Always A Hero!, but that does eliminate the worst-case example.

The others look very reasonable.

GM Fiat is a different matter; I'm not going to flat-out tell GMs how to run their games. However, such a character is likely to have a harder time transiting from one game to another, without modification.

I don't want to rely on GM fiat because it makes for a very uneven playing experience. If I wanted a ton of individual games I'd play on RPOL. One of the blessings of our site is a largely seamless player experience. GM styles vary, but not the overall player experience. We get XP at the same time, we get metarewards at the same time, things cost what they cost. No one pays to win. Despite that we have a method for people to give both in time and money to make the site better.

To the specific proposal, I suggest this. it is the most conservative of changes which I believe handles most objections without removing the options or changing them drastically.

(1 EP) To add +4 to any Trait or Skill Roll (must be declared before rolling)
(2 EP) Automatic Ace on any Trait or Skill roll (must be declared before rolling)

Becomes

(1 EP) To add +4 to any Trait or Skill Roll (must be declared before rolling; has no effect on failures based on die results and the roll can be modified by bennies as well)
(2 EP) Add a number equal to the trait die on any Trait or Skill roll (must be declared before rolling; has no effect on failures based on die results and the roll can be modified by bennies as well)

Always a Hero! already includes a need for GM approval, so I see no need to change it. It literally cannot be used if the GM objects.

Yes. This works for me. Oh, Patrick, can I borrow a couple EP?

High Command wrote:I don't want to rely on GM fiat because it makes for a very uneven playing experience. If I wanted a ton of individual games I'd play on RPOL. One of the blessings of our site is a largely seamless player experience. GM styles vary, but not the overall player experience. We get XP at the same time, we get metarewards at the same time, things cost what they cost. No one pays to win. Despite that we have a method for people to give both in time and money to make the site better.

To the specific proposal, I suggest this. it is the most conservative of changes which I believe handles most objections without removing the options or changing them drastically.

(1 EP) To add +4 to any Trait or Skill Roll (must be declared before rolling)
(2 EP) Automatic Ace on any Trait or Skill roll (must be declared before rolling)

Becomes

(1 EP) To add +4 to any Trait or Skill Roll (must be declared before rolling; has no effect on failures based on die results and the roll can be modified by bennies as well)
(2 EP) Add a number equal to the trait die on any Trait or Skill roll (must be declared before rolling; has no effect on failures based on die results and the roll can be modified by bennies as well)

Always a Hero! already includes a need for GM approval, so I see no need to change it. It literally cannot be used if the GM objects.

High Command wrote:I don't want to rely on GM fiat because it makes for a very uneven playing experience.

I allow things in my game I wouldn't normally, but I feel like I should, based on other games. Consistency. So GM fiat has not worked for me. I could crack down but why? Shrug.

As far as the rest, I'd be beating a dead horse to get into it all again. Already said I hate AA on Hangouts. Mostly the key thing for me is this:

There should always be a chance at failing, even if a remote one.

Cheers and love to all...... ... *returns to Whiskey bottle*.

I do not care for the +4 for 1 EP.

It is effectively better than a Joker and equal to two edges. An Edge is generally +1 to combat or +2 to non-combat. I think 1 EP per +2 up to the 3 EP for Trait is fair, it is a balance between what Lars proposed and what you propose (the way it has been).
As a note in SW a +2 to a roll means on most feats only snake eyes fails unless a contested trait or fighting. In which case it is still a very effective bonus. Note: it has the benefit of stacking with edges and iconic abilities.


On Always a Hero, I am still neutral. I would allow it in some situations even if it was not an EP item, so I think having a EP way to allow it formalizes the process.

LARS wrote:There should always be a chance at failing, even if a remote one.

Cheers and love to all...... ... *returns to Whiskey bottle*.

Both of the options I gave specifically call out that they can fail and crit fail.

High Command wrote:

LARS wrote:There should always be a chance at failing, even if a remote one.

Cheers and love to all...... ... *returns to Whiskey bottle*.

Both of the options I gave specifically call out that they can fail and crit fail.

Then cool. The current AA are too much. We agree.

LARS wrote:Then cool. The current AA are too much. We agree.

That is a bit far, but I see it as a good bit of give and take to include it. Personally I miss the auto crit from EU for 1 EP

RFT wrote:I do not care for the +4 for 1 EP.

It is effectively better than a Joker and equal to two edges. An Edge is generally +1 to combat or +2 to non-combat. I think 1 EP per +2 up to the 3 EP for Trait is fair, it is a balance between what Lars proposed and what you propose (the way it has been).
As a note in SW a +2 to a roll means on most feats only snake eyes fails unless a contested trait or fighting. In which case it is still a very effective bonus. Note: it has the benefit of stacking with edges and iconic abilities.


On Always a Hero, I am still neutral. I would allow it in some situations even if it was not an EP item, so I think having a EP way to allow it formalizes the process.

It is better in some ways than a joker but given that it's a one shot I don't see it as equal to or better than an edge.

As to cost, I've said this before and I still maintain that cost is relative. Before you go jacking up the prices I strongly suggest looking at how that impacts most players. Too much inflation is not good.

I do like the proposed change to auto ace though. Giving a bonus equal to the trait did is functionally equal to the AA but does not remove the chance for failure.

Freemage wrote:Okay, so, yeah, this is my dream-modification of the list.

At a bare minimum, Always a Hero should've been barred to Dragons. The fact that they have to earn each and every Rank in order to access their Edges is a key balance for them against the raw power of their base level.

....seeing as how I just made Grynn using this to get Metamorphosis, I feel like Freemage is disappointed with me...

Heracles wrote:

Freemage wrote:Okay, so, yeah, this is my dream-modification of the list.

At a bare minimum, Always a Hero should've been barred to Dragons. The fact that they have to earn each and every Rank in order to access their Edges is a key balance for them against the raw power of their base level.

....seeing as how I just made Grynn using this to get Metamorphosis, I feel like Freemage is disappointed with me...

Eh, the humiliation of being stuck in pony form at the start counterbalances it.

Heracles wrote:

Freemage wrote:Okay, so, yeah, this is my dream-modification of the list.

At a bare minimum, Always a Hero should've been barred to Dragons. The fact that they have to earn each and every Rank in order to access their Edges is a key balance for them against the raw power of their base level.

....seeing as how I just made Grynn using this to get Metamorphosis, I feel like Freemage is disappointed with me...

No, because you used an option the site allows. (This is my issue with the notion that it's "only with GM permission"--I don't want to be the Mean GM.) If I had my 'druthers, you wouldn't be able to do this, but since I don't, you can, and I won't hold it against you, nor against your GM for saying yes.

(I will point to the extreme version: A Huge Dragon (2 size increases) with full Metamorphosis and still a Novice. Throw in Teleportation as their first Seasoned Advance.)