Conrad's Hill Flattener

[Corrigon]

Conrad signature item - Tinkerer
Base item - Mini Rail Gun 75/150/300 2d8+4 ROF 4 AP6 Shots 32 mods 2
Notes: Min Str d12+2. Mega Damage, no Snapfire penalty. Shots = bursts (page 91).
•Major: Weapon gimble: removes Str. Minimum, reduces weight by 25 pounds
•Major: Switch from regular fire to area of effect fire, allowing you to hit everything in a MBT with one massive burst. Uses 8 shots.
•Major: Rock and Roll
•Minor: Halve weight
•Minor: +1 to Shooting

For the fluff, maybe Conrad made some crazy modifications to allow a mini railgun to fire insanely fast while simultaneously working in some incredible stabilizers, which allows him to spray large areas with terrifying accuracy. The weapon gimble helps compensate for the incredible weight of the weapon, which he has further modified by replacing traditional MDC materials with bleeding edge lightweight materials, the secrets of which are known only to his fellow Operators and him.


This is a signature item for Conrad in the 32nd

[Pursuit]

I like it, but I helped design it, so I’m biased. Approved.

[Freemage]

Obviously, the AoE is meant as a "GM Approval Special". While I'm not utterly opposed to the idea, I do think it needs to be managed more carefully. Here's two potential 'builds' I think make sense:

OPTION 1:
Full Unload (Major): Switching to an extra-fast rate of fire (double the RoF) allows you to strike everyone in a SBT, but increases the Shot cost by x2; this is only available on RoF>1 weapons, and uses the full RoF to calculate shot costs. This still inflicts Recoil penalties as normal.

Enhanced Burst (Major): This AoE weapon has its Template increased by one step (from Small to Medium, or Medium to Large). This doubles the Shot Cost of AoE attacks, permanently.

So Full Unload could be put on any RoF weapon to make it AoE, and Enhanced Burst on any weapon with an AoE could be made bigger.

OPTION 2:
Deadly Suppression (Major): This weapon is particularly effective when used in Suppressive Fire (SWD 71): Anyone who fails the Spirit check suffers damage (instead of having to roll a 1 to actually take damage).

Deadly Suppression: When using the Suppressive Fire opt

[Pursuit]

Obviously, the AoE is meant as a "GM Approval Special". While I'm not utterly opposed to the idea, I do think it needs to be managed more carefully. Here's two potential 'builds' I think make sense:

OPTION 1:
Full Unload (Major): Switching to an extra-fast rate of fire (double the RoF) allows you to strike everyone in a SBT, but increases the Shot cost by x2; this is only available on RoF>1 weapons, and uses the full RoF to calculate shot costs. This still inflicts Recoil penalties as normal.

Enhanced Burst (Major): This AoE weapon has its Template increased by one step (from Small to Medium, or Medium to Large). This doubles the Shot Cost of AoE attacks, permanently.

So Full Unload could be put on any RoF weapon to make it AoE, and Enhanced Burst on any weapon with an AoE could be made bigger.

OPTION 2:
Deadly Suppression (Major): This weapon is particularly effective when used in Suppressive Fire (SWD 71): Anyone who fails the Spirit check suffers damage (instead of having to roll a 1 to actually take damage).

Deadly Suppression: When using the Suppressive Fire opt

What he has is basically your option 1, but applied to a MBT. Applying it to a SBT doesn’t do much for a weapon with a ROF of 4; he can already hit everything in a SBT without needing to spend a Major slot to do it.

[Fizzwaite Zipwidget]

If anything expanding a blast template should be a minor enhancement. All the powers that I can think of that allow for a expanded blast template only require 1-2 PP extra to do so.

[Pender Lumkiss]

1st in regards to the major mod that does a medium area attack. The gun can already do it, it is called suppressive fire. For the major mod I would just change the rules slightly to takes damage on a failed spirit check instead of on a 1 of the spirit die, and a raise on the shooting roll the spirit check is vs an 8.

whether or not if you like that proposal, the amount of ammo used should at least follow suit with suppressive fire at x5 the rate of fire.

Or just use the blast power.

[Pursuit]

1st in regards to the major mod that does a medium area attack. The gun can already do it, it is called suppressive fire. For the major mod I would just change the rules slightly to takes damage on a failed spirit check instead of on a 1 of the spirit die, and a raise on the shooting roll the spirit check is vs an 8.

whether or not if you like that proposal, the amount of ammo used should at least follow suit with suppressive fire at x5 the rate of fire.

Or just use the blast power.

Doing x5 the ROF for a rail gun is overly punative because the suppressive fire rules weren’t written with rail guns in mind. For a normal weapon on auto fire, you spend ROF x ROF shots in a normal round (so, for a normal weapon with a ROF of 4, you would use 16 shots). For a rail gun with a ROF of 4, you use 4 shots, because each shot is really a “burst” of ammo.

So to go from using 4 shots/bursts for a normal, full-auto attack to needing 20 shots/bursts for suppressive fire is a massive jump in ammo expended.

I looked at suppressive fire as a guide when trying to figure how many rounds he’d need to expend to hit the MBT, but I thought it inapplicable for the above reasons.

[Pender Lumkiss]

1st in regards to the major mod that does a medium area attack. The gun can already do it, it is called suppressive fire. For the major mod I would just change the rules slightly to takes damage on a failed spirit check instead of on a 1 of the spirit die, and a raise on the shooting roll the spirit check is vs an 8.

whether or not if you like that proposal, the amount of ammo used should at least follow suit with suppressive fire at x5 the rate of fire.

Or just use the blast power.

Doing x5 the ROF for a rail gun is overly punative because the suppressive fire rules weren’t written with rail guns in mind. For a normal weapon on auto fire, you spend ROF x ROF shots in a normal round (so, for a normal weapon with a ROF of 4, you would use 16 shots). For a rail gun with a ROF of 4, you use 4 shots, because each shot is really a “burst” of ammo.

So to go from using 4 shots/bursts for a normal, full-auto attack to needing 20 shots/bursts for suppressive fire is a massive jump in ammo expended.

I looked at suppressive fire as a guide when trying to figure how many rounds he’d need to expend to hit the MBT, but I thought it inapplicable for the above reasons.

Well now you are talking about a house rule to change how railguns work with suppressive fire.

[Pursuit]

1st in regards to the major mod that does a medium area attack. The gun can already do it, it is called suppressive fire. For the major mod I would just change the rules slightly to takes damage on a failed spirit check instead of on a 1 of the spirit die, and a raise on the shooting roll the spirit check is vs an 8.

whether or not if you like that proposal, the amount of ammo used should at least follow suit with suppressive fire at x5 the rate of fire.

Or just use the blast power.

Doing x5 the ROF for a rail gun is overly punative because the suppressive fire rules weren’t written with rail guns in mind. For a normal weapon on auto fire, you spend ROF x ROF shots in a normal round (so, for a normal weapon with a ROF of 4, you would use 16 shots). For a rail gun with a ROF of 4, you use 4 shots, because each shot is really a “burst” of ammo.

So to go from using 4 shots/bursts for a normal, full-auto attack to needing 20 shots/bursts for suppressive fire is a massive jump in ammo expended.

I looked at suppressive fire as a guide when trying to figure how many rounds he’d need to expend to hit the MBT, but I thought it inapplicable for the above reasons.

Well now you are talking about a house rule to change how railguns work with suppressive fire.

I’m really not, because I don’t personally think he needs to go the suppressive fire route. Just pointing out that the suppressive fire rule doesn’t work well for rail guns; I have no idea how many bursts should be expended to make people duck their heads. It’s a rail gun, people. You should already be ducking!

[Pender Lumkiss]

Objection withdrawn, I forgot railguns are not subjected to their own ROF when determining shots used.

So actually suppressive fire works fine with railguns. It would just cost 5 shots for the medium burst. Anyways if you want it to be 8 and Conrad is fine with that I got no problem.

[Freemage]

Obviously, the AoE is meant as a "GM Approval Special". While I'm not utterly opposed to the idea, I do think it needs to be managed more carefully. Here's two potential 'builds' I think make sense:

OPTION 1:
Full Unload (Major): Switching to an extra-fast rate of fire (double the RoF) allows you to strike everyone in a SBT, but increases the Shot cost by x2; this is only available on RoF>1 weapons, and uses the full RoF to calculate shot costs. This still inflicts Recoil penalties as normal.

Enhanced Burst (Major): This AoE weapon has its Template increased by one step (from Small to Medium, or Medium to Large). This doubles the Shot Cost of AoE attacks, permanently.

So Full Unload could be put on any RoF weapon to make it AoE, and Enhanced Burst on any weapon with an AoE could be made bigger.

OPTION 2:
Deadly Suppression (Major): This weapon is particularly effective when used in Suppressive Fire (SWD 71): Anyone who fails the Spirit check suffers damage (instead of having to roll a 1 to actually take damage).

Deadly Suppression: When using the Suppressive Fire opt

What he has is basically your option 1, but applied to a MBT. Applying it to a SBT doesn’t do much for a weapon with a ROF of 4; he can already hit everything in a SBT without needing to spend a Major slot to do it.

Going from Single-Target to SBT Area Effect has the following impacts:
1: Reduce the odds of Critical Failure, and accompanying Technical Difficulties, by 75% (you only roll a single Shooting die instead of 4)
2: Cover penalties to hit are converted to Armor
3: Ditto other penalties to hit, such as Deflection, Cyber-Kinetic Awareness, etc.

Then, on top of that, this would potentially double the number of targets from 4 to 8 (obviously, only in ideal conditions of densely packed foes, but still).

[Pursuit]

Obviously, the AoE is meant as a "GM Approval Special". While I'm not utterly opposed to the idea, I do think it needs to be managed more carefully. Here's two potential 'builds' I think make sense:

OPTION 1:
Full Unload (Major): Switching to an extra-fast rate of fire (double the RoF) allows you to strike everyone in a SBT, but increases the Shot cost by x2; this is only available on RoF>1 weapons, and uses the full RoF to calculate shot costs. This still inflicts Recoil penalties as normal.

Enhanced Burst (Major): This AoE weapon has its Template increased by one step (from Small to Medium, or Medium to Large). This doubles the Shot Cost of AoE attacks, permanently.

So Full Unload could be put on any RoF weapon to make it AoE, and Enhanced Burst on any weapon with an AoE could be made bigger.

OPTION 2:
Deadly Suppression (Major): This weapon is particularly effective when used in Suppressive Fire (SWD 71): Anyone who fails the Spirit check suffers damage (instead of having to roll a 1 to actually take damage).

Deadly Suppression: When using the Suppressive Fire opt

What he has is basically your option 1, but applied to a MBT. Applying it to a SBT doesn’t do much for a weapon with a ROF of 4; he can already hit everything in a SBT without needing to spend a Major slot to do it.

Going from Single-Target to SBT Area Effect has the following impacts:
1: Reduce the odds of Critical Failure, and accompanying Technical Difficulties, by 75% (you only roll a single Shooting die instead of 4)
2: Cover penalties to hit are converted to Armor
3: Ditto other penalties to hit, such as Deflection, Cyber-Kinetic Awareness, etc.

Then, on top of that, this would potentially double the number of targets from 4 to 8 (obviously, only in ideal conditions of densely packed foes, but still).

Righto; those are some neat benefits, which is why I thought a Major mod was appropriate.

As for the doubling of targets, as you point out, they would have to be packed in there pretty tightly for that to be the case. In practical terms, I have rarely see more than 3 targets hit by a MBT attack (and usually it’s 2), so that does not worry me overmuch.

[Freemage]

I feel that even against a single target, the "direct target" to "SBT" option is still worth a Major Mod in itself, due to all the advantages it gives. Adding in a doubling of the number of targets (from 1-2 to 2-4, in my experience) should be another Mod.

[Tribe of One]

I agree with Soren. One Major to add Area of Effect-SBT, another to increase the radius to MBT.

[Pursuit]

I agree with Soren. One Major to add Area of Effect-SBT, another to increase the radius to MBT.

This comes off as unnecessarily expensive to me for the mechanical benefits gained.

[Venatus Vinco]

I am fine with a major mod going to MBT.

Area Effect (+2/+4): For 2 points, the attack affects an area the size of a Medium Burst Template. For 4 points the hero may use either a Medium or a Large Burst Template.

The super powers companion lets you make the jump from single attack to MBT for two points - the cost of an edge. Since major mods add an edge, the need for two mods is punitive in my mind.

I vote approved.

VV

[Tribe of One]

I am fine with a major mod going to MBT.

Area Effect (+2/+4): For 2 points, the attack affects an area the size of a Medium Burst Template. For 4 points the hero may use either a Medium or a Large Burst Template.

The super powers companion lets you make the jump from single attack to MBT for two points - the cost of an edge. Since major mods add an edge, the need for two mods is punitive in my mind.

I vote approved.

VV

It's also been the custom one this site to charge an extra "phantom" Edge when utilizing options from the SPC2, which would put it back to two Edges.

[Venatus Vinco]

It's also been the custom one this site to charge an extra "phantom" Edge when utilizing options from the SPC2, which would put it back to two Edges.

In race creation, yes. Doesn't change my vote on this item.

VV

[High Command]

I don't care about the mods as written. They are fine to me. But as I said with the Tinkerer thread, it's not really appropriate for signature items. In fact there is zero allowance for it in the rules - on purpose. Tinkerer is something Conrad should be doing on his own once he gets the edge.

Make this with the existing Super-Tech rules and I vote approved.

[Pursuit]

I don't care about the mods as written. They are fine to me. But as I said with the Tinkerer thread, it's not really appropriate for signature items. In fact there is zero allowance for it in the rules - on purpose. Tinkerer is something Conrad should be doing on his own once he gets the edge.

Make this with the existing Super-Tech rules and I vote approved.

So he just needs to change the word "Tinkerer" to "super tech", right? Because you could build the above using either (though I suppose super tech would impose an additional -2 to repair unless he adds a quirk).

[Tribe of One]

It's also been the custom one this site to charge an extra "phantom" Edge when utilizing options from the SPC2, which would put it back to two Edges.

In race creation, yes. Doesn't change my vote on this item.

VV

Oh, sweet. If we get 4 pts of racial modifiers for a single Major mod slot now, I'm gonna have to start cracking on some Signature Items for my characters.

[Venatus Vinco]

Oh, sweet. If we get 4 pts of racial modifiers for a single Major mod slot now, I'm gonna have to start cracking on some Signature Items for my characters.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, you may wish to wait on that,

1) My vote is only one. Doesn't count more or less than the others needed for approval. So, while I remain unconvinced, the mod in question may not be approved.

2) I did qualify that my agreement is for this item, other combinations may not make as much sense.

3) I am not sure there is a direct comparison between an always on racial trait to the function of a device that is limited by ammo (hopefully super expensive custom ammo), technical difficulties, and other restrictions.

VV

[Ndreare]

I will abstain.

With the rules for making super tech, weird science, tinker, or glitter power items in such a flux and not play tested I see no reason to prevent this from being allowed as a play test. The weapon looks deadly scary, but no more so than Force Multiplication and a Ley Line.
Note a burster could do the same thing with 2 edges.

However it will not be used in my game so I do not want to approve something another GM will be frustrated by it if it ends up causing some issue.

[Tribe of One]

I will abstain.

With the rules for making super tech, weird science, tinker, or glitter power items in such a flux and not play tested I see no reason to prevent this from being allowed as a play test. The weapon looks deadly scary, but no more so than Force Multiplication and a Ley Line.
Note a burster could do the same thing with 2 edges.

However it will not be used in my game so I do not want to approve something another GM will be frustrated by it if it ends up causing some issue.

If a burster can do it with two Edges, then it should cost two Edges as a weapon mod. If it would cost 2 Edges as a racial ability (1 Edge + the 1 Edge SPC2 shadow tax) then it should cost two Edges as a weapon mod.

This is a very powerful ability, primarily because AoE bypasses several standard defenses (and since this is a railgun, targets will get no chance to dodge or "throw back the grenade"). Just ask the players in my New West game, who've been dealing with rifle-launched AP grenades -- which are only SBT.

I'm all for play-testing, but there's no reason to playtest the version that, by our own established rules, is overpowered. Playtest it as two mods -- one to make it AoE, another to increase to MBT -- and if play-testing shows that to be underpowered, we can adjust up, instead of having to take away a toy that proved (entirely predictably) to be OP.

[Venatus Vinco]

The Burster example changed my mind a little about two edges.

It was a more convincing example.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

I will abstain.

With the rules for making super tech, weird science, tinker, or glitter power items in such a flux and not play tested I see no reason to prevent this from being allowed as a play test. The weapon looks deadly scary, but no more so than Force Multiplication and a Ley Line.
Note a burster could do the same thing with 2 edges.

However it will not be used in my game so I do not want to approve something another GM will be frustrated by it if it ends up causing some issue.

If a burster can do it with two Edges, then it should cost two Edges as a weapon mod. If it would cost 2 Edges as a racial ability (1 Edge + the 1 Edge SPC2 shadow tax) then it should cost two Edges as a weapon mod.

This is a very powerful ability, primarily because AoE bypasses several standard defenses (and since this is a railgun, targets will get no chance to dodge or "throw back the grenade"). Just ask the players in my New West game, who've been dealing with rifle-launched AP grenades -- which are only SBT.

I'm all for play-testing, but there's no reason to playtest the version that, by our own established rules, is overpowered. Playtest it as two mods -- one to make it AoE, another to increase to MBT -- and if play-testing shows that to be underpowered, we can adjust up, instead of having to take away a toy that proved (entirely predictably) to be OP.

The weapon by default can do an aoe at a medium burst, any autofire weapon can do that. This is a change to the surpressive fire rules as a major mod.

[Pursuit]

He'd be using it in my game, and I'm not overly concerned about it being OP. Standing next to the Glitterboy, dragon hatchling and burster, he'll fit right in.

That said, I recognize the importance of standards that apply across the site; just don't shed a tear for the GM who would have to deal with this thing.

[Pursuit]

The Burster example changed my mind a little about two edges.

It was a more convincing example.

VV

It's one edge: Flame Blast.

[Ndreare]

The Burster example changed my mind a little about two edges.

It was a more convincing example.

VV

It's one edge: Flame Blast.

Two as I perceived it, one for increased RoF and one for AOE. (But as a not the gun already had the RoF, I was only saying a Burster could do it in two edges)

He'd be using it in my game, and I'm not overly concerned about it being OP. Standing next to the Glitterboy, dragon hatchling and burster, he'll fit right in.

That said, I recognize the importance of standards that apply across the site; just don't shed a tear for the GM who would have to deal with this thing.

If you are okay with it. Combined with Jon pointing out the suppression fire rules (which I have never ever read, that I recall!)...

I will change to Approved

[Pursuit]

The Burster example changed my mind a little about two edges.

It was a more convincing example.

VV

It's one edge: Flame Blast.

Two as I perceived it, one for increased RoF and one for AOE. (But as a not the gun already had the RoF, I was only saying a Burster could do it in two edges)

I see what you were getting at now. The burster is even scarier because she could combine a ROF of 3 with a MBT. This just lets him switch from normal auto fire to what is essentially a ROF 1 at a MBT.

In summation, busters are terrifying and I'm going to stat one up.

[Ndreare]

Yep I would still allow this in my game. For the record I missed the part where he could only do one or the other I thought you could do the rate of fire combined with the area of effect.

[Tribe of One]

And the burster has to pay an extra ISP for every use of the blast template.

[Pursuit]

And the burster has to pay an extra ISP for every use of the blast template.

True enough.

Here, Conrad would use double the ammo for the MBT, so there is a resource cost, too. On top of that, rail guns are pricey to reload, and it can be hard to find ammo if you run out in a swamp, which is where this character is heading.

[Ndreare]

Trying for clean up. Should this be in abandoned or approved?

[Corrigon]

I used it and it wasn't overpowered to my mind, but I'll let other people make the decision.

[Pursuit]

Trying for clean up. Should this be in abandoned or approved?

We had Conrad do a test run of the item at VV's suggestion: the 32nd was up against a horde of vampires using the "Endless" encounter rule, which gave plenty of opportunities to fire the hill flattener in MBT mode. Didn't seem overpowering to me, and I would still vote to approve it.

[Venatus Vinco]

Approved.

[Ndreare]

Moved to approved