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Enhanced Physical M.O.M. Augmentation
Despite the questionable success of a Crazy conversion, some chose to push the limit even further. The Coaltion developed Psynetics possibly stolen from the Angel of Death in Germany who also developed the non-Psynetic Crazy, South America combined Techno-Wizardry to the process, and the Japanese coupled it with meditation and therapy to reduce the side effects.

Individual crazies are no different from countries and organizations as they, too, look to push the limits of their already impressive abilities. The way they do this is just as variable as their mental states ranging from taking a screwdriver to the protruding portion of the implant in an attempt to ‘turn it up’ (often with disastrous results) to linking it to deep brain stimulation technology that uses the electromagnetic field of the heart to control and enhance the ‘Losing It’ state.

One of the more successful attempts results in re-establishing damaged neural pathways to provide better control of the losing it state and a better link to other M.O.M. implants. Despite placing strain on the recipient, the implant also improves access to the Crazy's psionic abilities.

Note that TD kicks in on any roll that uses the item's bonuses. In this case, that means it should also kick in on any critfails involving the Acrobat/Gymnastics Mastery Edges (and if you suffer TD, then the penalties would apply to those rolls, as well, until you get the M.O.M. repaired).

With that proviso, I think it's solid.

I approve, but I would echo what Freemage warns.
Although honestly we have enough tech based characters it will be common place in no time.

Noted. That makes sense. Of course I give it a thumbs up as well.

Not that it really needs another vote with three GMs already chiming in, but hey, it can't hurt. Approved.

Not approved. Smart rolls and spirt roll bonuses to something that adds agilty? No way those bonuses are appropriate to the item.

It's not a TW item, so that particular rule doesn't apply (or at least not as strictly, IMO). And I think he makes the case for why they're appropriate to an improved MOM implant (reducing penalties for a "smoother" experience.)

Approved.

Tribe of One wrote:It's not a TW item, so that particular rule doesn't apply (or at least not as strictly, IMO). And I think he makes the case for why they're appropriate to an improved MOM implant (reducing penalties for a "smoother" experience.)

Approved.

Actually that rule does apply as strict as tw items.

Super Tech: To set them apart from TW, tech items have less upgrade “slots” available to them. Major and Minor qualities are the same as those found under Techno-Wizard Creation rules in the Tomorrow Legion Player’s Guide. The level of augmentation should also be an indicator of rarity. As a general rule bonuses from enhancements should never exceed +3 in any one trait.

Hm... You're both right, arguably.

I'd say you are "using the item" when you're making Getting It Together and Needs Action rolls, so those specifically COULD be affected by the boost. At the same time, it would be reasonable to state that the item doesn't make you smarter or more strong-willed generally. Which would mean the device has a VERY narrow application for those bonuses (the Smarts boost wouldn't even affect Monologuer, unless it's a result of Pscyhe Degradation--I'd say Smarts and Spirits rolls that arise due to your MOM's effects on your mind would get affected), and might not be sufficiently useful for the player's desires because of that.

Freemage wrote:Hm... You're both right, arguably.

I'd say you are "using the item" when you're making Getting It Together and Needs Action rolls, so those specifically COULD be affected by the boost. At the same time, it would be reasonable to state that the item doesn't make you smarter or more strong-willed generally. Which would mean the device has a VERY narrow application for those bonuses (the Smarts boost wouldn't even affect Monologuer, unless it's a result of Pscyhe Degradation--I'd say Smarts and Spirits rolls that arise due to your MOM's effects on your mind would get affected), and might not be sufficiently useful for the player's desires because of that.

Seems like a fair compromise.

Except he ought to get a larger bonus if it's going to be limited that narrowly.

Tribe of One wrote:Except he ought to get a larger bonus if it's going to be limited that narrowly.

Does he? It seems on par with a +1 to swimming or fear. It would be up to the GM in some part to make sure the rolls are being made with enough frequency.

A minor upgrade can get you a +1 bonus to any Trait roll - - it could just be a flat +1 to Strength or Fighting, no limits. Since there are limits being added, very strict ones in this case, he ought to get something in return to balance it out. Otherwise he should be allowed to just have the Trait bonus allowed in the rules.

Tribe of One wrote:A minor upgrade can get you a +1 bonus to any Trait roll - - it could just be a flat +1 to Strength or Fighting, no limits. Since there are limits being added, very strict ones in this case, he ought to get something in return to balance it out. Otherwise he should be allowed to just have the Trait bonus allowed in the rules.

Actually it cannot get you a bonus to any trait roll. It is appropriate trait roll. in this case the item enhances agility, cybernetic cyber wire reflexes. An appropriate trait roll would be something agility related. I could be talked into something fitting the items trapping but being a completely different trait roll. Hence a limited smart and spirit roll.

You see that as being limiting and in a way it is but it is also gaining an advantage of allowing a trait roll not appropriate to the item. To me it nets out to being a fine minor mod.

But since it does cause folks so much grief just change the super trch house rules to allow any trait roll regardless if it is appropriate or not. That would seem to be the easiest way to get things like this done.

In general, I'm not a big fan of how the "appropriate trait" thing is interpreted, and would be pleased as punch if that stayed exclusive to TW items, as a limitation for them (which actually fits with the fluff, where form/the idea of something was more important than function.)

But in this case I actually think a flat, unlimited boost to Smarts is totally appropriate for a modified MOM implant. I would approve the unlimited version in a heartbeat, which is why I think the limited version should grant a larger, if more focused, bonus. Probably +2 in both cases, if it's limited to only offseting penalties. In the same way that offsetting 2 points of Shooting penalties is valued about the same as a flat +1 to Shooting.

Tribe of One wrote:In general, I'm not a big fan of how the "appropriate trait" thing is interpreted, and would be pleased as punch if that stayed exclusive to TW items, as a limitation for them (which actually fits with the fluff, where form/the idea of something was more important than function.)

But in this case I actually think a flat, unlimited boost to Smarts is totally appropriate for a modified MOM implant. I would approve the unlimited version in a heartbeat, which is why I think the limited version should grant a larger, if more focused, bonus. Probably +2 in both cases, if it's limited to only offseting penalties. In the same way that offsetting 2 points of Shooting penalties is valued about the same as a flat +1 to Shooting.

But it is not a modified MOM implant, sure in name it is being called that, but only in name is it that. The base item is cyber-wire reflexes. Smart or spirit roll increases to an item that enhances agility is not appropriate. The base item has not been changed in any way via a trapping or anything like that.

I am all for the item to do what the character wants but you got to build it using some other base or but a trapping change on it to reflect that it is not cyber wire reflexes.

As for the appropriate trait, I don't think it is bad, it challenges us to really design well thought out and mechanically sound items. I like the thought behind this item, but mechanically it needs at least a trapping change on it so that it effects the mental instead of the the physical side of the character.

Pender Lumkiss wrote: But it is not a modified MOM implant, sure in name it is being called that, but only in name is it that. The base item is cyber-wire reflexes. Smart or spirit roll increases to an item that enhances agility is not appropriate. The base item has not been changed in any way via a trapping or anything like that.

We may just have to agree to disagree here. To me that is a trapping change. The base item may be CWR, but he's redefined it as a cyber modification to the MOM system, which literally blends mental and physical improvements -- it's a Mind Over Matter system.

Tribe of One wrote:

Pender Lumkiss wrote: But it is not a modified MOM implant, sure in name it is being called that, but only in name is it that. The base item is cyber-wire reflexes. Smart or spirit roll increases to an item that enhances agility is not appropriate. The base item has not been changed in any way via a trapping or anything like that.

We may just have to agree to disagree here. To me that is a trapping change. The base item may be CWR, but he's redefined it as a cyber modification to the MOM system, which literally blends mental and physical improvements -- it's a Mind Over Matter system.

Trappings cost a minor mod.

Gaining the mechanical benefits of a capital Trapping do. Refluffing an item is free -- and expected, in my mind.

Tribe of One wrote:Gaining the mechanical benefits of a capital Trapping do. Refluffing an item is free -- and expected, in my mind.

So every item gets a free trapping as long as their is no mechanical benifits? It's cool, enough folks think it is fine. I am not the GM, so what I say does not really matter.

Pender Lumkiss wrote:

Tribe of One wrote:Gaining the mechanical benefits of a capital Trapping do. Refluffing an item is free -- and expected, in my mind.

So every item gets a free trapping as long as their is no mechanical benifits? It's cool, enough folks think it is fine. I am not the GM, so what I say does not really matter.

I don't want to confuse adding a mechanical Trapping and refluffing (which we often refer to as retrapping, but in a descriptive sense, not a game mechanics sense.) They are two separate things, in my mind. The first costs a Minor upgrade. The second is free, and done all the time, when we refluff weapons or armor as other models, vibro-swords as magic swords, etc. Rules stay the same but the description changes. Adding a Trapping via Minor upgrade is a mechanical change.

Tribe of One wrote:

Pender Lumkiss wrote:

Tribe of One wrote:Gaining the mechanical benefits of a capital Trapping do. Refluffing an item is free -- and expected, in my mind.

So every item gets a free trapping as long as their is no mechanical benifits? It's cool, enough folks think it is fine. I am not the GM, so what I say does not really matter.

I don't want to confuse adding a mechanical Trapping and refluffing (which we often refer to as retrapping, but in a descriptive sense, not a game mechanics sense.) They are two separate things, in my mind. The first costs a Minor upgrade. The second is free, and done all the time, when we refluff weapons or armor as other models, vibro-swords as magic swords, etc. Rules stay the same but the description changes. Adding a Trapping via Minor upgrade is a mechanical change.

Ok, well since the item is cyber-wire reflexes which adds agility to a character when used, we come back to what is an appropriate trait roll for such a device. If nothing is mechanically changing about the base device, like retrapping it to increase spirit or something, I really cannot approve bonuses to trait rolls that are not linked to agility.

I see you saying retrapping, but that does usually come with a mechanical change. Like for the sea inquisitor, it is a retrapping of the cyberknight but taking how a ck adversely effects tech and making it vs the super natural. Mechanical in the sense it effects supernatural instead of tech.

In this instance retrapping cyber-wire reflexes to allow spirit and smart rolls should have the mechanical effect of effecting the mental aspect of the character. The word appropriate trait rolls refers to how the item is used. Change how the item is used and you will have acheived the effect you are looking for.

Nothing mechanically about the cyberware has to change: It's a piece of tech that adds +1d to Agility and costs 1 Strain. You're just changing "how" and "why" it does that. Instead of super-conductive wire in the spinal cord, it's a module that modifies the MOM system, creating a smoother ride. That, then, provides the narrative framework for the various upgrades he's talking about to be appropriate. Does it make the MOM system better/smoother/more reliable? Perfectly appropriate then.

As another example: Say I want to refluff Bionic Strength. Instead of replacing my meat muscles with pistons and titanium mesh, it's actually a cyber implant in my brain that stimulates adrenaline production -- or even a module that doesn't do make any physical change, but runs calculations and show me how to apply my existing strength in a targeted, more efficient/effective manner. Mechanically, nothing changes, it's just refluffing. But the second example would make a fine base for an Upgrade that adds Quick or +1 Pace -- that adrenaline boost -- while the latter, which is based (narratively) on enhanced analytical ability, would be fine for a +1 to Smarts.

Based on your posts, I'm going to guess you don't agree, and that's fine. I'm just explaining how and why I interpret item proposals the way I do. And again, I'd be happy to just do away with the "appropriate trait" language for non-TW stuff (Enchanted Items even more so, considering the prevalence of things like magic amulets, rings, etc. in fiction -- what's an "appropriate trait" for an amulet?). But even if "appropriate trait" is enforced, I don't think it's hard to find creative justifications for most any bonus, with the right reflavoring.

Tribe of One wrote:Nothing mechanically about the cyberware has to change: It's a piece of tech that adds +1d to Agility and costs 1 Strain. You're just changing "how" and "why" it does that. Instead of super-conductive wire in the spinal cord, it's a module that modifies the MOM system, creating a smoother ride. That, then, provides the narrative framework for the various upgrades he's talking about to be appropriate. Does it make the MOM system better/smoother/more reliable? Perfectly appropriate then.

As another example: Say I want to refluff Bionic Strength. Instead of replacing my meat muscles with pistons and titanium mesh, it's actually a cyber implant in my brain that stimulates adrenaline production -- or even a module that doesn't do make any physical change, but runs calculations and show me how to apply my existing strength in a targeted, more efficient/effective manner. Mechanically, nothing changes, it's just refluffing. But the second example would make a fine base for an Upgrade that adds Quick or +1 Pace -- that adrenaline boost -- while the latter, which is based (narratively) on enhanced analytical ability, would be fine for a +1 to Smarts.

Based on your posts, I'm going to guess you don't agree, and that's fine. I'm just explaining how and why I interpret item proposals the way I do. And again, I'd be happy to just do away with the "appropriate trait" language for non-TW stuff (Enchanted Items even more so, considering the prevalence of things like magic amulets, rings, etc. in fiction -- what's an "appropriate trait" for an amulet?). But even if "appropriate trait" is enforced, I don't think it's hard to find creative justifications for most any bonus, with the right reflavoring.

Man I want to agree with you so badly. What you say makes a ton of sense but I just can't bring myself to approve something that changes what is appropriate so dramatically. Anyways you got enough votes so carry on.

The base item was chosen really due to a lack of other options. I am not tied in any way to Cyber Wired Reflexes as the base item. Suggestions on what would be more appropriate are welcome, but the thought was that its a brain implant that stimulates agility instead of wired peripheral nerves.

How about an Advanced form of juicer harness that lends you some of the Juicers speed, but not enough to make you a full on juicer?
I had a player in the 99 do a TW version.

Basically when it kicks in it sends adrenaline and enzyme rich nutrients to feed the affected muscles into your system super charging your reflex time.


PS: I think there is nothing wrong with the MOM implant and would have approved for my game. So do not be surprised of other shut down my idea of an adrenaline harness.

Well, the Sci-Fi Companion has other possible Cybernetics listed; like all SFC gear, these are considered available in Savage Rifts "with GM approval".

In that list we find: Attribute Increase (U), available for $3K. If we were to apply the standard x10 conversion to that, a piece of cybernetics that increases your Smarts or Spirit would cost 30K Cr.

That this is more than the cost of Cy-Wi Reflexes or Bionic Strength Augmentation is fine--it just means that on Rifts Earth, they've 'solved' various issues with those two pieces. (Interestingly, Synthetic Organ Replacement is considerably MORE than that, but we'll assume that's because SORs require additional components meant to prevent rejection.)

So, we can, with ST approval, design a piece of cyberware that would have as its primary function the increasing of either Smarts or Spirit by 1 die-type--either a computer chip embedded to process data better, or a series of adrenal controls meant to keep you more even-tempered. Psinetics seems pretty well suited for that, frankly, so I see no issue with it, so long as it's called out as a prototype/advanced model, anyway. Use that as the base, and Bob's your uncle. (And since Psinetics are specifically what makes someone a Crazy, it would make sense for it to be able to provide Crazy Iconic Edges, as well, even if those Edges are tied to Agility.)

However, this does raise another issue. If the base item is Cyberware, it uses the rules for Cyberware. Meaning it causes 1 level of Strain--and thus, would impinge upon your Psionics rolls, unless you take a level of Cyber-Psychic Alignment. You could, of course, swap CPA in for either Gymnastics Mastery or Off the Handle (if you subbed it in for Acrobat, you would have to take Acrobat before the Gymnastics Mastery would kick in). And this would apply even if we stuck with Cy-Wi Reflexes as the base, actually--something that I missed before.

RFT wrote:How about an Advanced form of juicer harness that lends you some of the Juicers speed, but not enough to make you a full on juicer?
I had a player in the 99 do a TW version.

Basically when it kicks in it sends adrenaline and enzyme rich nutrients to feed the affected muscles into your system super charging your reflex time.


PS: I think there is nothing wrong with the MOM implant and would have approved for my game. So do not be surprised of other shut down my idea of an adrenaline harness.

Sounds like the Euro-Juicer rig from World Book 5 (Triax and the NGR) and expanded on in World Book 10: Juicer Uprising

I’d prefer to stick with some form of M.O.M. implant and have no issue with switching it to a SFC implant that boosts Smarts. I also fully accept the strain penalty. That still leaves the +1 to Spirit rolls not fitting with the implant. That being said, if it is a Smarts boosting implant, is a +1to Psionics rolls appropriate?

Egil Skallgrim wrote:I’d prefer to stick with some form of M.O.M. implant and have no issue with switching it to a SFC implant that boosts Smarts. I also fully accept the strain penalty. That still leaves the +1 to Spirit rolls not fitting with the implant. That being said, if it is a Smarts boosting implant, is a +1to Psionics rolls appropriate?

Sounds fine to me!

There ya go. Edit the original post accordingly, and we can hopefully put this to bed.

Approved.

Done!. Thanks, folks.

Approved.