Diamond PPE Storage Battery

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Beowulf85
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Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

I've posted my math elsewhere, I'll just look for validation here.
Is it fine if a 1 carat diamond can hold 10 PPE?
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

I just replied to that thread. I'd personally say 5 PPE per carat.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

K, now that we're validating items, 5 PPE per carat makes sense. Should it act like a talisman? In order to recharge it the user has to put in 10 PPE per carat (twice as much PPE as it holds).

This item can typically be created by a techno wizard or a stone master.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Icosa »

Oh sweet. I want to make a bunch of these. Diamonds really ARE a girl's best friend!
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Bennies: 4/4 Red Bennies: 1
Toughness: 21 (9 armor), Parry 9
Notice: 1d8 (+2 visual)

Character Name: Alecto
Rank: Seasoned Experience: 45 Advances Left: 0
Race: Android
Iconic Framework: MARS Techno Warrior
Attributes: Agility d10, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d10 (d12+2), Vigor d8
Charisma: +2; Pace: 6 (8); Parry: 6 (9); Toughness: 11 (+2 in armor, and +7 armor)

Race Package:
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Construct (8)

Outsider (-1) (Applies when true robotic nature is revealed)
Distinctive (Concealable; a Wound reveals) (-1)
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Skills: 15 (5 fight/shoot/throw)
Shooting 1d10
Fighting 1d8 (1d12+2)
Investigation 1d6
Persuasion 1d6
Stealth 1d8
Streetwise 1d8
Notice 1d8

Hindrances
Clueless (Major - Is rebuilding knowledge of the world after having suffered near-total memory loss)
Stubborn (Minor - Has great confidence in ability to calculate outcomes; tends to reject counterarguments)
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Upgradable
Brawny (+1 Toughness, 8x Str carrying)
Brave (+2 vs fear)
Ambidextrous (ignore offhand penalty)
Rich (5000creds at start, 2 rolls on gear tables)
Filthy Rich (20,000 at start, 3 more rolls)
Quick Draw (draw weapon as free action, +2 to Agility to fast-draw)
Two-Fisted (ignore multi-action penalty for using off hand)
Level-headed (draw two initiative cards and use best)
Sweep (Make single Fighting attack and apply to all adjacent targets at -2)
Rock and Roll (Ignore recoil penalties on full-auto shots)
Strong Willed (+2 to Taunt and Intimidate; +2 on Tests of Wills)
Elan (+2 on rolls resulting from using a Benny)
Improved Sweep (Fighting attacks made with Sweep suffer no penalty)

Upgrades (Cybernetics): (Max Strain: 12)
Core Electronics (1)
* Interface jack: +4 Repair or Common knowledge for linked equipment, 20 mile radio
Optics Package (1)
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Reinforced Frame 2 (2)
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* +1d Vigor
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* +1d Agility
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* 4d skill chip (Fighting)
Targeting Eye (1)
* +2 Shooting on calibrated weapons
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* Heal 1 Wound/day, +4 vs Bleeding Out
Built in Weaponry (1)
* 1 Vibroblade (purchased: 13,500)

Gear
Wilk's 237 Laser Pistol (2d6+1, AP4, RoF 1, 16eclip, 15/30/60, semiauto)
JA-11 Laser Rifle (3d6 laser or 3d6+1 ion, AP2, RoF 1, 60eclip, 30/60/120, can do MD for 10x shot power +snapfire, reduces range penalties by 2)
Vibro-Sword (Str+1d10 MD)
NG-E4 Plasma Ejector (3d10 MD, no AP, RoF 1, 12eclip, 24/48/96, snapfire, affects least-armored location, can ignite)
NE-85 Personal Rail Gun
Range: 70/140/280
Damage: 2d10+4
RoF: 3
AP: 4
Shots: 20
Weight: 60 lbs
Cost: 75,000
Notes: Mega Damage, no Snapfire penalty. Shots listed are number of full bursts.
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96 hours operation on full charge

NG-S2 Survival Pack
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Sleeping bag
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First aid kit (+1 to healing; 3 uses)
Hunting/Fishing kit (+1 to Survival to forage)
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4 signal flares
Climbing kit w/30 rope
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Alecto wrote:Oh sweet. I want to make a bunch of these. Diamonds really ARE a girl's best friend!
Limited as per GM availability, lol. Also, diamonds aren't cheap.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Daniel »

Girls aren't cheap either.

:)
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

As a note, my current revision is:

5 PPE per carat, it takes twice as much PPE to charge as it holds. Diamond PPE batteries are worth about 15,000 credits per carat + 5000 credits for minor upgrade + 10,000 credits to allow someone other than the creator to charge the device (major upgrade) + TW markup. Summary: 30,000 credits + TW markup.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

My whole problem is that PPE Batteries are supposed to act independent of the user. They accept charge, period, and give that charge without regard to the wielder's ability to manipulate PPE. Stormspire created the PPE-Clip with the non-magic user in mind. Their big breakthrough was that you didn't NEED a TW to recharge them. You could just sit them on a ley line or in a pyramid. The PPE Battery is supposed allow mundanes to use TW devices, or at the very least allow ANY user to use the device, without drawing on their own PPE and they can be recharged by any TW and many mages and psychics.

If you feel the need for their to be a charge for someone to charge it aside from the TW just bake that into the prices. Personally I find that absurd, but I guess game balance is affected (not that I see how). Assume that is a design feature. We will need to design the PPE-Clip as well at some point. Only the versions of TW Weapons/items without batteries were meant only for magic users and psychics (because the user is the power source).

Please note I play a TW in classic, so I am not speaking out of some need to power game or expand access. These are things TW can do already. And have been doing some early 100s or so (I'd have to look up when Stormspire came about). I get SR is in its baby steps and there is a clear delineated line in SR about TW, but when the in-universe fluff allows it, you make a way for it to happen. Note I think it costing double PPE to charge what it holds as a perfect balance. It's simply more efficient for a mage to use his own power. But this would allow most any user activate it. Note I would still have Strain act as a negative to activation.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Icosa »

Ooo...yeah. I know that sort of thing is -exactly- the kind of thing Deezy would be interested in developing. She really wants to open TW stuff to the general population, but it's a challenge!

So if that kind of stuff isn't already commonly available, she would make it a big character goal to learn about it, and try to make that a bit central feature of her own TW engineering.
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Toughness: 21 (9 armor), Parry 9
Notice: 1d8 (+2 visual)

Character Name: Alecto
Rank: Seasoned Experience: 45 Advances Left: 0
Race: Android
Iconic Framework: MARS Techno Warrior
Attributes: Agility d10, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d10 (d12+2), Vigor d8
Charisma: +2; Pace: 6 (8); Parry: 6 (9); Toughness: 11 (+2 in armor, and +7 armor)

Race Package:
Adaptable (2)
Construct (8)

Outsider (-1) (Applies when true robotic nature is revealed)
Distinctive (Concealable; a Wound reveals) (-1)
Restricted Path (No ISP/PPE) (-2)
Wanted (Major) (-2) (CS, Federation would destroy immediately; also mysterious creating faction hasn't forgotten her)
Dependency (Power) (-2)

Skills: 15 (5 fight/shoot/throw)
Shooting 1d10
Fighting 1d8 (1d12+2)
Investigation 1d6
Persuasion 1d6
Stealth 1d8
Streetwise 1d8
Notice 1d8

Hindrances
Clueless (Major - Is rebuilding knowledge of the world after having suffered near-total memory loss)
Stubborn (Minor - Has great confidence in ability to calculate outcomes; tends to reject counterarguments)
Cautious (Minor - Always wants to plan for every contingency; cover every angle)

Edges
Adaptable: Attractive
Upgradable
Brawny (+1 Toughness, 8x Str carrying)
Brave (+2 vs fear)
Ambidextrous (ignore offhand penalty)
Rich (5000creds at start, 2 rolls on gear tables)
Filthy Rich (20,000 at start, 3 more rolls)
Quick Draw (draw weapon as free action, +2 to Agility to fast-draw)
Two-Fisted (ignore multi-action penalty for using off hand)
Level-headed (draw two initiative cards and use best)
Sweep (Make single Fighting attack and apply to all adjacent targets at -2)
Rock and Roll (Ignore recoil penalties on full-auto shots)
Strong Willed (+2 to Taunt and Intimidate; +2 on Tests of Wills)
Elan (+2 on rolls resulting from using a Benny)
Improved Sweep (Fighting attacks made with Sweep suffer no penalty)

Upgrades (Cybernetics): (Max Strain: 12)
Core Electronics (1)
* Interface jack: +4 Repair or Common knowledge for linked equipment, 20 mile radio
Optics Package (1)
* +2 sight Notice, IR/Nightsight, 50x distance/20x macro, +2 vs blinding, record images
Reinforced Frame 2 (2)
* +4 Toughness
Enhanced Vigor 1 (1)
* +1d Vigor
Cyber-Wired Reflexes 1 (1)
* +1d Agility
Wired Chip Port (1)
* 4d skill chip (Fighting)
Targeting Eye (1)
* +2 Shooting on calibrated weapons
Nano-Repair System (2)
* Heal 1 Wound/day, +4 vs Bleeding Out
Built in Weaponry (1)
* 1 Vibroblade (purchased: 13,500)

Gear
Wilk's 237 Laser Pistol (2d6+1, AP4, RoF 1, 16eclip, 15/30/60, semiauto)
JA-11 Laser Rifle (3d6 laser or 3d6+1 ion, AP2, RoF 1, 60eclip, 30/60/120, can do MD for 10x shot power +snapfire, reduces range penalties by 2)
Vibro-Sword (Str+1d10 MD)
NG-E4 Plasma Ejector (3d10 MD, no AP, RoF 1, 12eclip, 24/48/96, snapfire, affects least-armored location, can ignite)
NE-85 Personal Rail Gun
Range: 70/140/280
Damage: 2d10+4
RoF: 3
AP: 4
Shots: 20
Weight: 60 lbs
Cost: 75,000
Notes: Mega Damage, no Snapfire penalty. Shots listed are number of full bursts.
SFD Huntsman Armor (+3 armor mod)

The Fury - Signature Item
Exoskeleton Body Armor
+2 toughness, +9 armor
Pace +2
Str 1d12+2
Full environment
Loudspeaker, 10 mile radio, laser rangefinder, nightvision
Min str d8
96 hours operation on full charge

NG-S2 Survival Pack
2 person tent, +20% water supplies
Sleeping bag
Flashlight w/knife; solar
Inertial compass (+2 to Survival to navigate)
Short range (5 mile) radio
First aid kit (+1 to healing; 3 uses)
Hunting/Fishing kit (+1 to Survival to forage)
Three ‘saw wires’
Fire starter
Survival Knife, hatchet, wooden cross
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Beowulf85 wrote:As a note, my current revision is:
5 PPE per carat, it takes twice as much PPE to charge as it holds. Diamond PPE batteries are worth about 15,000 credits per carat + 5000 credits for minor upgrade + 10,000 credits to allow someone other than the creator to charge the device (major upgrade) + TW markup. Summary: 30,000 credits + TW markup.
I am good with diamond storage devices as this is simply a TW item with some PPE upgrades and follows the TW creations rules as written. In fact I believe this item could also be charged on a ley line at so many PPE per hour/fifteen minutes.

For now, I would prefer not to make the battery accessible to people without an AB. Yes, we know PPE clips/Stormspire etc. exist in the original material but for now I like keeping TW items the purview of arcane characters.

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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

I respect your decision VV, but the source and I disagree. That said I won't mention it again for some time.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

High Command wrote:I respect your decision VV, but the source and I disagree. That said I won't mention it again for some time.
Thanks, I agree that it is possible in Rifts source material so I am not trying to be difficult. However, I don't think it is intended to do this in Savage Rifts as written.

Per Clint (bold added):
dentris wrote:
Is it possible for a TW (or anyone with an Arcane Background) to pay the cost of reloading a TW gun, for example, then give it to another mundane character to use it until it runs out of ammo? Would it work if he lays his hand on a power armor worn by his friend every hour and pay the maintenance cost in his place?


Nope. Per the sidebar on Techno-Wizard Devices (and a couple of other places) <italics added>...

"Techno-Wizard (TW) items operate with a flow of energy and require an Arcane Background (or special ability) to use."

It's not enough for them to simply be charged, the user must have a link to the item (via an AB) to use it at all.
http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... rd#p457611
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Hans Greuber »

Venatus Vinco wrote:
High Command wrote:I respect your decision VV, but the source and I disagree. That said I won't mention it again for some time.
Thanks, I agree that it is possible in Rifts source material so I am not trying to be difficult. However, I don't think it is intended to do this in Savage Rifts as written.

Per Clint (bold added):
dentris wrote:
Is it possible for a TW (or anyone with an Arcane Background) to pay the cost of reloading a TW gun, for example, then give it to another mundane character to use it until it runs out of ammo? Would it work if he lays his hand on a power armor worn by his friend every hour and pay the maintenance cost in his place?


Nope. Per the sidebar on Techno-Wizard Devices (and a couple of other places) <italics added>...

"Techno-Wizard (TW) items operate with a flow of energy and require an Arcane Background (or special ability) to use."

It's not enough for them to simply be charged, the user must have a link to the item (via an AB) to use it at all.
http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... rd#p457611
Maybe have it a major upgrade (as custom major upgrade as determined by GM)to allow non-AB's to use it. Maybe even require Veteran or Heroic to make it even rarer
Hans Greuber

PPE: 15 / 30 (11 - 13 Invested into Gargamel, 1 Invested into Humble's Bracelet)
Silver Ring 1: 5 / 10
Silver Ring 2: 5 / 10
Active Powers:
None
Combat Edges/Hindrances:
Hesitant
Arcane Machinist Gadgets Left: 1 /6
Created Gadgets:
Arcane Protection (6 PPE left)
Remote Viewing (6 PPE left)
Teleport (4 PPE left)
Dispel (9 PPE left)

Bennies: 1 (+1 Z) / 3
Base Amount
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Golems:
Gargamel (Invested PPE, Flying Pace 12, Mind Rider)
Huey (Mind Rider), Dewey, Louis
Alvin (Mind Rider), Simon, Theodore
https://savagerifts.com/sr/viewtopic.php?p=76048#p76048

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  • Fatigue: 0
    Wounds: 0
Golems (*=Mind Link, #=Winged)
  • Gargamel*#
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      Wounds: 0
    Huey*
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Dewey
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Louis
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Alvin*
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Simon
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
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      Wounds: 0
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Hans Greuber wrote:Maybe have it a major upgrade (as custom major upgrade as determined by GM)to allow non-AB's to use it. Maybe even require Veteran or Heroic to make it even rarer
That is a reasonable idea. However, the more I research the more adamant Clint seems about requiring an AB to use TW.

http://www.pegforum.com/viewtopic.php?f ... rd#p449459

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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Corrigon »

going back to the battery, can it be charged multiple times?
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

Why not? That is what a battery is
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Hans Greuber »

High Command wrote:Why not? That is what a battery is
Old style alkaline batteries are not rechargeable... just saying... :P
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PPE: 15 / 30 (11 - 13 Invested into Gargamel, 1 Invested into Humble's Bracelet)
Silver Ring 1: 5 / 10
Silver Ring 2: 5 / 10
Active Powers:
None
Combat Edges/Hindrances:
Hesitant
Arcane Machinist Gadgets Left: 1 /6
Created Gadgets:
Arcane Protection (6 PPE left)
Remote Viewing (6 PPE left)
Teleport (4 PPE left)
Dispel (9 PPE left)

Bennies: 1 (+1 Z) / 3
Base Amount
+1 Zombie Bennie
-1 to Reroll Fear against Vithen Wraiths
-1 to Reroll Arcana to Find Geist among Mirror Selves

Toughness: 16 (8); Parry: 4; Pace: 5 (d4)
Golems:
Gargamel (Invested PPE, Flying Pace 12, Mind Rider)
Huey (Mind Rider), Dewey, Louis
Alvin (Mind Rider), Simon, Theodore
https://savagerifts.com/sr/viewtopic.php?p=76048#p76048

Hans:
  • Fatigue: 0
    Wounds: 0
Golems (*=Mind Link, #=Winged)
  • Gargamel*#
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Huey*
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Dewey
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Louis
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Alvin*
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Simon
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
    Theodore
    • Fatigue: 0
      Wounds: 0
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

even older style lead acid batteries are; And dry cell batteries are rechargable-ish :P At least once.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Corrigon »

maybe some cheaper ones you can't recharge
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

I am sure it can be recharged. The TW enhancements give the rules and rates of re charging as part of the add PPE upgrade.

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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Good discussion people, let me see if I can work on this and come up with a few different ways this device could work. One of the great things about TW devices as that they are flexible in function provided you have the skill to create them or the money to purchase them, and TW item creation in SR is fairly straight foreword. I'm glad people are liking the idea in general. :)

Base notes: 5 PPE per carat, diamonds are worth about 15,000 credits per carat.

Single charge PPE battery: 5000 credits to make a diamond a battery. Once charge is depleted it becomes a normal diamond. Charging requires twice as much PPE as the diamond can hold.
Pricing summary: 15,000 per carat + 5000 credits for one minor upgrade + TW markup.

Basic rechargeable PPE battery: Recharge manually. It takes twice as much PPE to charge as it holds. 15,000 credits per carat + 5000 credits for minor upgrade (making it a battery) + 10,000 credits to allow someone other than the creator to charge the device (major upgrade) + TW markup.
Pricing Summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 15,000 credits for 1 minor and 1 major upgrade + TW markup.

Self-charging PPE battery: Charges at 1 PPE/hour (as per inherent novice ability to charge PPE, assumed to be a novice edge for the battery)
Pricing summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 25,000 credits for 1 minor and 1 major upgrade (novice edge) + TW markup.

Fast Self-Charging PPE battery: Charges at 1 PPE/half hour (novice charging ability + seasoned rapid recharge edge).
Pricing summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 65,000 credits for 1 minor and 2 major upgrades (novice and seasoned edge) + TW markup.

Custom variants:
  • Recharge on a ley line (major upgrade) - 20,000 credits
  • May be used without AB (other major upgrade as allowed by GM) - pre markup cost of battery doubles.
I think that allowing such a device to be used without AB for double the pre markup cost of the battery is fairly balanced. Essentially the battery needs to be custom designed for the purpose so characters will pay through the nose for it. Note that I didn't originally propose this item with charging other devices in mind, but as a way for characters to carry a little more PPE or ISP for use with their own abilities, however I see how a device like this could be very useful when combined with other TW devices. This could easily be a basis for something like a PPE clip.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

When building these I would use the power points edge with a major trapping that the power points edge build a pool of energy that recharges at the normal rate. Uses the same rules to draw the stored energy out as lay lines. This might just be only for ppe because psionics cannot draw from lay lines. But I think that would be a negotiable point.
Sir your basic 1 carat diamond conversion would be:
1ppt to "activatiate"
Major edge power points 1ppt
Major trapping stored Power.
Lets the user, usually as action, draw up to 3ppts.

You could then either add more power point edges up to a total of 5( might only be two depending on your interpretation of the minor tw effects where it says you can only have two of the same effects. Does this apply to major effects as well?
But anyways doing it this way would let you add your rapid recharge edges, at a cost of 1 ppt defected from the pool.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Pender Lumkiss wrote:When building these I would use the power points edge with a major trapping that the power points edge build a pool of energy that recharges at the normal rate. Uses the same rules to draw the stored energy out as lay lines. This might just be only for ppe because psionics cannot draw from lay lines. But I think that would be a negotiable point.
Sir your basic 1 carat diamond conversion would be:
1ppt to "activatiate"
Major edge power points 1ppt
Major trapping stored Power.
Lets the user, usually as action, draw up to 3ppts.

You could then either add more power point edges up to a total of 5( might only be two depending on your interpretation of the minor tw effects where it says you can only have two of the same effects. Does this apply to major effects as well?
But anyways doing it this way would let you add your rapid recharge edges, at a cost of 1 ppt defected from the pool.
I thought about that, but the concept behind this was that in Palladium different stones had the potential different magical abilities. Diamonds make natural PPE batteries, thus no need for a power points edge. See RUE P. 131/132 (bottom/top) and 133 (diamonds), also mentioned in WB. 02, Atlantis. IF we did it your way we wouldn't need a diamond, we coud just use an empty power cell. Furthermore, that power cell could hold as much PPE as it has room for trappings. The way I'm proposing the PPE is limited by the size of the diamond and the device is much more expensive because it's a diamond. What you're proposing is fesible, but it's not quite on the same page as what I was working on.

Also, it just doesn't make sense to have to spend PPE to draw PPE from something that was intentionally built to store PPE. Drawing PPE is something that can be naturally done as part of the setting. If anything the cost of drawing is paid when recharging, as it costs 2 PPE to put 1 PPE in to the diamond.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Zed »

The only item in the TLPG that grants additional power points for the user's powers (as opposed to powering the item or the item's powers) is the HJ Enchanted Items staff on a 1 result. That item cannot be made with the existing TW conversion/upgrade rules The closest thing would be an item that grants the Power Point edge twice, but that would only function while the item was charged - which is very inefficient for a melee weapon. Also, it would enhance the user's power point pool, meaning that recharge would work differently - it wouldn't recharge independently of the user (adding Rapid Recharge to the mix would sort of .

It also says something that it is an item that cannot be purchased - if you don't get it as part of your backstory, you just can't get it without a GM explicitly making one available to you. Getting extra Power Points is powerful - even the Power Points edge is limited to once per rank, and that comes with a significant opportunity cost (you can't use that advance for anything else). I think that being able to just buy PPE with credits opens up the potential for abuse. Why would you ever take the Power Points edge?

All that being said, I see two ways to make PPE batteries using the stock TW rules, but neither really works the way the original item did. The conversion rule of thumb is relevant though - does it have the feel of the original items even though the mechanics are different? Of these two, I think the second one is better.

One is that they have to be built into a TW item, and are essentially just a trapping on the PPE storage TW upgrades. It would be appropriate to let diamonds be used in the place of credits to 'pay' for the upgrade costs - a 5k credit diamond would pay for the minor upgrade, no additional credits needed (unless paying someone else to do it, of course). If the item also has powers from major upgrades, it would sort of feel like drawing PPE from the diamond to power the spell... but it wouldn't work for innate powers.

The second (EDIT: Pender's idea) would be to have them use the major upgrade to grant the Power Points and maybe Rapid Recharge edges. It would take some math to figure out which combinations of edges would be the most beneficial. I'm leery about this item allowing the user to exceed the normal 1/rank limit on the Power Points edge - that seems rather open to abuse. It's worth noting that the lower level batteries are not very efficient, but they scale quite well. On the other hand, upper tier batteries are less likely to have their full charge used in an hour, meaning you would have to pay for a second activation (lowering efficiency). Also, Major Psionics get WAY more mileage out of these than anyone else.

1 major upgrade: Power Points edge. Costs 2 PPE to power for 1 hour, but grants 5 PPE (or 10 ISP to a Major Psionic) for a net gain of 3 PPE (8 for a Major Psionic).
2 major upgrades: 2x Power Points edge. Costs 3 PPE to power for 1 hour, but grants 10 PPE (or 20 ISP to a Major Psionic) for a net gain of 7 PPE (17 for a Major Psionic).
...
6 major upgrades: 6x Power Points edge. Costs 7 PPE to power for 1 hour, but grants 30 PPE (or 60 ISP to a Major Psionic) for a net gain of 23 PPE (53 for a Major Psionic).

This does bring up a few odd questions though.
1) When you get the Power Points edge, do you (A) automatically get the PPE, or do you (B) just raise your maximum and wait for your recharge rate to fill it? If the (A) then your available PPE is only limited by the credits you can spend. Min/max cheesiness: Play a robot armor ock with an AB, sell the robot and buy a bunch of these. If (B), then these devices are more or less useless without having all three of the Rapid Recharge edges.
2) Assuming (A) above, what happens if you have PPE left at the end of the hour? i would presume you would lose access to any leftover power points... but then what happens if you pay the PPE for another hour? Do you get a fresh pool of PPE again? Forget the jock, just get one of these and call it a day.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Zed wrote:The only item in the TLPG that grants additional power points for the user's powers (as opposed to powering the item or the item's powers) is the HJ Enchanted Items staff on a 1 result. That item cannot be made with the existing TW conversion/upgrade rules The closest thing would be an item that grants the Power Point edge twice, but that would only function while the item was charged - which is very inefficient for a melee weapon. Also, it would enhance the user's power point pool, meaning that recharge would work differently - it wouldn't recharge independently of the user (adding Rapid Recharge to the mix would sort of .

It also says something that it is an item that cannot be purchased - if you don't get it as part of your backstory, you just can't get it without a GM explicitly making one available to you. Getting extra Power Points is powerful - even the Power Points edge is limited to once per rank, and that comes with a significant opportunity cost (you can't use that advance for anything else). I think that being able to just buy PPE with credits opens up the potential for abuse. Why would you ever take the Power Points edge?

All that being said, I see two ways to make PPE batteries using the stock TW rules, but neither really works the way the original item did. The conversion rule of thumb is relevant though - does it have the feel of the original items even though the mechanics are different? Of these two, I think the second one is better.

One is that they have to be built into a TW item, and are essentially just a trapping on the PPE storage TW upgrades. It would be appropriate to let diamonds be used in the place of credits to 'pay' for the upgrade costs - a 5k credit diamond would pay for the minor upgrade, no additional credits needed (unless paying someone else to do it, of course). If the item also has powers from major upgrades, it would sort of feel like drawing PPE from the diamond to power the spell... but it wouldn't work for innate powers.

The second (EDIT: Pender's idea) would be to have them use the major upgrade to grant the Power Points and maybe Rapid Recharge edges. It would take some math to figure out which combinations of edges would be the most beneficial. I'm leery about this item allowing the user to exceed the normal 1/rank limit on the Power Points edge - that seems rather open to abuse. It's worth noting that the lower level batteries are not very efficient, but they scale quite well. On the other hand, upper tier batteries are less likely to have their full charge used in an hour, meaning you would have to pay for a second activation (lowering efficiency). Also, Major Psionics get WAY more mileage out of these than anyone else.

1 major upgrade: Power Points edge. Costs 2 PPE to power for 1 hour, but grants 5 PPE (or 10 ISP to a Major Psionic) for a net gain of 3 PPE (8 for a Major Psionic).
2 major upgrades: 2x Power Points edge. Costs 3 PPE to power for 1 hour, but grants 10 PPE (or 20 ISP to a Major Psionic) for a net gain of 7 PPE (17 for a Major Psionic).
...
6 major upgrades: 6x Power Points edge. Costs 7 PPE to power for 1 hour, but grants 30 PPE (or 60 ISP to a Major Psionic) for a net gain of 23 PPE (53 for a Major Psionic).

This does bring up a few odd questions though.
1) When you get the Power Points edge, do you (A) automatically get the PPE, or do you (B) just raise your maximum and wait for your recharge rate to fill it? If the (A) then your available PPE is only limited by the credits you can spend. Min/max cheesiness: Play a robot armor ock with an AB, sell the robot and buy a bunch of these. If (B), then these devices are more or less useless without having all three of the Rapid Recharge edges.
2) Assuming (A) above, what happens if you have PPE left at the end of the hour? i would presume you would lose access to any leftover power points... but then what happens if you pay the PPE for another hour? Do you get a fresh pool of PPE again? Forget the jock, just get one of these and call it a day.
Editing the day after posting as you had a long post with a lot of thought. I'll try and address your points in point form to keep things simple and structured.

All of your upgrades seem to think that PPE storage should be based on the power points edge. This isn't based on edges and was never intended to be constructed using that theory, this is based on the innate property of diamonds (and emeralds) in the source material. See RUE P. 131/132 (bottom/top) and 133 (diamonds), also mentioned in WB. 02, Atlantis. This is why the size of the diamond is a limiting factor when it comes to storage capacity. If we wanted to do this with edges we would probably want to use an actual mechanical power cell of some kind, and its storage capacity would only be limited by how many edges we could fit in to it. That could also be done, but that's not what we're doing here. I'm sure a number of TWs have turned old spent power cells in to some form of PPE battery using the method you described above, but using a diamond circumvents that at the extra cost of the diamond but with the limiting factor of the size of the diamond.

"You just can't get it without a GM explicitly making one available to you" can be said about any item. We're creating an item that GMs can choose to allow or distribute as appropriate, just because something can be done doesn't mean it has to be allowed. What's more, it's not a cheap item to begin with. Unless a GM is giving their players hundreds of thousands of credits they aren't going to be able to afford one of these without saving up, and if GMs are distributing that kind of cash then there are plenty of ways players can power up their characters. The fact that the HJ tables include unique items indicates that players and GMs should be encouraged to think up unique items of their own, kind of like what we're doing here, except this item is fairly vanilla and based directly on the original Palladium material.

As for min/maxing with power armor (or some other expensive starting item), good luck selling your power armor at the drop of a hat then instantly trading those credits for diamonds. If a GM allows something like that to happen it breaks breaks what would realistically be possible for a character even if they had expensive power armor. Very few people have the money to buy that kind of thing, and even fewer are interested. Any GM who permits something like this either doesn't care about game balance (if that's fun then fine) or is just being lazy when it comes to running an internally coherent fictional reality.

"Why would you ever take the power points edge?" You can put any edge or spell in to a TW device, that doesn't mean that players will want to stop buying edges when they advance their characters. If this was a worry then we would have to blacklist TW item creation in general. Again, it's up to GMs to determine what items are available in what quantities.

In response to your 'few odd questions', I've always assumed that when your character levels you gain the new charge instantly, because it's assumed that that character gradually built up that strength while they were still leveling. Reaching the new plateau just unlocks what your character has been working on for the player to access. This is really up to the GM though as it isn't addressed in the canon material. That being said, this isn't really important to address unless the item are using the power points edge in order to store PPE, which as I said above they shouldn't.

Thanks for the thought, but I don't think your line of thinking was quite on the same page with what I was initially proposing. As I mentioned, what you created could be done with an old spent battery salvaged from a scrap yard and could hold far more PPE for far cheaper. What I am proposing could only be done with a diamond or emerald.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Maybe we should create this item using the rules for "magic items" in the GM forum. I can publish them here for all.

This solves two problems, one trying to jam it into TW creation rules and makes it a unique item only a GM can distribute.

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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Interesting. I thought it functioned really well using the TW item creation rules. Also note, I managed to find the reference for it in RUE. It's on the bottom of page 131/top of page 132. It speaks of Techno Wizards being able to use diamonds and emeralds to store PPE using the talisman or energy sphere spells.
How would you propose it be done with rules for magic items? If I'm understanding it correctly I think all of the above options are still doable through the 'magic items' rules with few if any changes? Is pricing the same?
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Beowulf85 wrote:Interesting. I thought it functioned really well using the TW item creation rules.
Oh, if it works no problem. There just seemed to be a lot of commentary. As a magic item I guess it's simpler in my mind because it just uses the "add ppe enchantment" and some flavour, like charging takes 2:1 or can only be refilled on a ley line or whatever the GM needs. Just seemed cleaner.

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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Venatus Vinco wrote:
Beowulf85 wrote:Interesting. I thought it functioned really well using the TW item creation rules.
Oh, if it works no problem. There just seemed to be a lot of commentary. As a magic item I guess it's simpler in my mind because it just uses the "add ppe enchantment" and some flavour, like charging takes 2:1 or can only be refilled on a ley line or whatever the GM needs. Just seemed cleaner.

VV
Both of the above comments seem to overlook that this was something that TWs were able to do in Palladium because diamonds are inherently able to store PPE, thus I cited my sources if they want to look. RUE P. 131/132 (bottom/top) and 133 (diamonds), also mentioned in WB. 02, Atlantis.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

If this is something only TW can make and then hand out it sounds like their arcane machinist ability. Perhaps some custom IF edges should be done.

PPE battery: seasoned, TW, kn arcana d10( requirments are negotiable)
TW has unlocked the secret of storimg ppe for future use inside diamonds. He can create 1 such item using the arcane machinist ability(as if creating a power of seasoned rank).

PPE battery expert: veteran, TW, PPE battery
The TW can make a second PPE storage diamomd( second one is created as if a veteran power)

PPE battery master: Heroic, TW, PPE battery mastery
The TW has mastered this craft, and can now create 4 such ppe storage devices.( these two are created as if a heroic power)
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Pender Lumkiss wrote:If this is something only TW can make and then hand out it sounds like their arcane machinist ability. Perhaps some custom IF edges should be done.

PPE battery: seasoned, TW, kn arcana d10( requirments are negotiable)
TW has unlocked the secret of storimg ppe for future use inside diamonds. He can create 1 such item using the arcane machinist ability(as if creating a power of seasoned rank).

PPE battery expert: veteran, TW, PPE battery
The TW can make a second PPE storage diamomd( second one is created as if a veteran power)

PPE battery master: Heroic, TW, PPE battery mastery
The TW has mastered this craft, and can now create 4 such ppe storage devices.( these two are created as if a heroic power)
Interesting idea, but why create edges specifically for this item? Other TW items don't require custom IF edges to make. If a TW wanted to start making flaming swords they would just need the appropriate components (traditionally a sword hilt and two rubies) and successful rolls. Also, as stated above, it can be made by Atlantian Stone Masters as well, though they might use a slightly different process, the result would be the same. This seems needlessly complicated. I assume there is a reason you believe it would be helpful or necessary?
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Hans Greuber »

Pender Lumkiss wrote:If this is something only TW can make and then hand out it sounds like their arcane machinist ability. Perhaps some custom IF edges should be done.

PPE battery: seasoned, TW, kn arcana d10( requirments are negotiable)
TW has unlocked the secret of storimg ppe for future use inside diamonds. He can create 1 such item using the arcane machinist ability(as if creating a power of seasoned rank).

PPE battery expert: veteran, TW, PPE battery
The TW can make a second PPE storage diamomd( second one is created as if a veteran power)

PPE battery master: Heroic, TW, PPE battery mastery
The TW has mastered this craft, and can now create 4 such ppe storage devices.( these two are created as if a heroic power)
One more thing... requiring a seasoned or higher TW to take an edge to craft something just means that they need to spend more credits and time... to create a device that gives him the required edges
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Hans Greuber wrote:
Pender Lumkiss wrote:If this is something only TW can make and then hand out it sounds like their arcane machinist ability. Perhaps some custom IF edges should be done.

PPE battery: seasoned, TW, kn arcana d10( requirments are negotiable)
TW has unlocked the secret of storimg ppe for future use inside diamonds. He can create 1 such item using the arcane machinist ability(as if creating a power of seasoned rank).

PPE battery expert: veteran, TW, PPE battery
The TW can make a second PPE storage diamomd( second one is created as if a veteran power)

PPE battery master: Heroic, TW, PPE battery mastery
The TW has mastered this craft, and can now create 4 such ppe storage devices.( these two are created as if a heroic power)
One more thing... requiring a seasoned or higher TW to take an edge to craft something just means that they need to spend more credits and time... to create a device that gives him the required edges
LOL! I can't believe I didn't notice this. It seems we are all getting used to the mechanics of the system.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Zed »

Venatus Vinco wrote:Maybe we should create this item using the rules for "magic items" in the GM forum. I can publish them here for all.

This solves two problems, one trying to jam it into TW creation rules and makes it a unique item only a GM can distribute.
Of course, that doesn't resolve the issue of a TW putting the Power Points edge into a device, which is valid by the written rules regardless of how diamond PPE batteries are done. The PPE cost of edges on TW items is usually a limiter on how many edges you can get from TW devices (just like Strain limits how many edges you can get from Embedded Combat Coding). However, the Power Points edge explicitly breaks that by granting additional power points, even if just in the short term. Of course, it's typically the short term (i.e. a combat) that you need a a lot of PPE at once anyway.

The simplest solution to that would be to consider the Power Points edge to only increase Maximum PPE/ISP, which can then be "filled" through the normal recharge means. A Power Points edge device would still be very powerful on a leyline, but not for general use.
Beowulf85 wrote:Both of the above comments seem to overlook that this was something that TWs were able to do in Palladium because diamonds are inherently able to store PPE, thus I cited my sources if they want to look. RUE P. 131/132 (bottom/top) and 133 (diamonds), also mentioned in WB. 02, Atlantis.
I wasn't overlooking it at all, I fully took your word for it. I'm not about to challenge anyone's claims about the setting, because I am at the minimum a serious contender for the dubious distinction of "least setting knowledge" on this board. You could tell me that there are flying pig-mutants on Mars in this setting and I'd take your word for it (and probably start thinking about how to build them with the race rules).

However, in the EP discussion a desire to maintain the mechanical balance of Savage Worlds was expressed. That mechanical balance is the basis for and driving motivation of my comments (well, that and I'm a bit of a game mechanics junky, I've been an amateur game designer for decades and love to tinker; I'm a sucker for build-systems like the custom race rules and TW device construction).
Hans Greuber wrote:One more thing... requiring a seasoned or higher TW to take an edge to craft something just means that they need to spend more credits and time... to create a device that gives him the required edges
That's a good point, it's not entirely that simple. For one, a TW can only add edges and powers of their rank or lower (per the asterisk'd text below the major upgrades list). So the abpve legendary edge would require a legendary TW to put it in an item. Secondly, the Major item creation process takes days; unless you've got the veteran level rapid recharge edge or an external source of PPE already, it's unlikely that you would be able to pay the 2 PPE per hour for the entire creation process. If you are getting all three of the proposed edges from an item, the activation cost would be 4 PPE per hour, so you'd either need all three rapid recharge edges or be on a leyline (of course, every serious TW manufacturer would set up shop on a leyline...)

That's also why you can't really boost Trait yourself up to auto-raise territory... you'd run out of PPE long before the process was complete.
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Current Arcane Machinist Gizmos:
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Active effects:
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Zed wrote:I wasn't overlooking it at all, I fully took your word for it. I'm not about to challenge anyone's claims about the setting, because I am at the minimum a serious contender for the dubious distinction of "least setting knowledge" on this board. You could tell me that there are flying pig-mutants on Mars in this setting and I'd take your word for it (and probably start thinking about how to build them with the race rules).

However, in the EP discussion a desire to maintain the mechanical balance of Savage Worlds was expressed. That mechanical balance is the basis for and driving motivation of my comments (well, that and I'm a bit of a game mechanics junky, I've been an amateur game designer for decades and love to tinker; I'm a sucker for build-systems like the custom race rules and TW device construction).
Fair enough. I do appreciate the input and thought you've put in to this. That still leaves my point that while what you proposed is a legitimate build, it could be done with any power cell. What I proposed specifically requires a diamond or emerald (as per canon diamonds store twice as much PPE though) which is why I didn't go that particular route. Does that make sense?

Pender seems to really want some kind of limiter on it, but I really don't think IF edges make sense for a number of reasons. The main one is that it sets a precedent for 'Techno Wizards can't do a basic thing that they are supposed to be able to do', that being create items without the need of any more edges or abilities than they start with. Making an edge to be able to make a specific item just doesn't fit the IF. What's more, they are an IF that is supposed to be able to create devices that give characters edges and abilities that would only normally be unlockable via advances. That's a huge part of what TWs do in this setting, and this fits that bill to a T.

I've countered the proposition though. I think it would make more sense for this device to have flavor text limiting the location and conditions under which it could be created. Namely, it would have to be at a nexus point at a time where there is an increased level of PPE (see RUE P. 186, which also gives more info on drawing PPE from artifacts). This makes sense because it's a battery, maybe it needs a little extra kick for its initial charge. This would also be another setting element that GMs have some degree of control over. 'Do I have access to a safe nexus point to do this thing?'
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

Actually Zed, they are mutant insects and they are recent arrivals and trying to take over the orbital community - cause insects. :) The mutant pigs are more common in the space stations above Earth Orbit.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Savant »

I was following this thread for a bit, and considering the expressed desires, this is what I came up with:

  • Minor:
  • +10 PPE Storage (2 slots, 10K)
  • Major:
  • +20 PPE Storage (2 Slots, 60K)
  • Power Point Edge (1 slot, 20K)
  • Ley Line Powered (1 Slot, 20K)
Cost: 110K

While on a Ley Line, the device gives the user a free Power Point Edge slot, which, as you noted in the discussion, would then need to recharge naturally (though if they're on a Ley Line, LLWs and Mystics at least could tap the line to fast-fill). In addition, since it's got a natural pool of 30 PPE, it can be kept charged continuously by the user for a full day away from a Ley Line without any downside, and will recharge on its own (at the rate of one point every 15 mins) when on a Ley Line.

When the internal charge is empty, the user would need to decide whether it makes sense for them to keep it powered up using their own PPE; if they have at least Rapid Recharge, it probably does. I think this is sufficiently useful to be worth the effort of making it, and is fairly easily handwaved as "always on" except when the GM sets the storyline away from any Ley Lines for an extended period of time.

Now, addressing Beowulf's comments about diamonds being unique in this regard...

Perhaps for this specific item, the materials cost could be reduced, IF a diamond is used as the base item. Acquiring diamonds might require the use of the Connections Edge, or some other form of role-play mechanic that also entails GM approval, which keeps it from becoming too easily tapped.

(Curious side-note about the above: A Major Psionic using the diamond would gain +10 to their max ISP, rather than +5, because it's simply granting the Edge, rather than being a literal battery. I know that's weird, but it's one of those small places where the mechanics differ, so the outcomes differ.)
Savant
Stat Block
Altara Warrior Woman Crazy (Visibly Altaran)
Agility d12+4, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d12, Vigor d12
Pace: 12/d6; Parry: 10 (Uncanny Reflexes -2); Toughness: 16(6)
Charisma: +2 Attractive/-4 if anti-Altaran/-2 if Bloodthirsty known
Skills: Psionics d12; Shooting d10; Fighting d12; Notice d4+4; Tracking d4+2; Survival d4+2; Streetwise d4+2; Climbing d4; Common Knowledge d6; Agility Tricks d12+8
Edges: Quick, Alertness, Brawler/Martial Artist, Dirty/Tricky Fighter, Mighty Blow, Split the Seconds, Off the Handle, Acrobat, Major Psionic, Gun Nut, Quick Draw, Imp. Counterattack
Additional Edges: Gymnastic Mastery
Hindrances: Curious, Poverty, Stubborn, Major Phobia: Birds, Bloodthirsty, Blind-ish, Quirk
Bennies: 3/3
ISP: 18/20

Powers: Clairvoyance, Divination, Mind-Reading
  • Q2/19 Adventure Cards:
    Rabbit Out of My Hat - Play this card to gain +2 on any Trick test until the end of the scene.
    Mechanical Malfunction - A device malfunctions in some way: guns jam, bow strings break, etc. The device can be fixed by a Repair roll at -4 and 10 minutes work.
    Dressed to Kill - Your hero dresses up, is “on” for the night, or otherwise far more attractive or charismatic than usual. Add +4 to your Charisma for the duration of the current “scene.”
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

This is a different item, and while I think it works according to the rules it seems really really strong. Am I reading it correctly? 30 PPE storage plus a power points edge to draw on? That's how much PPE a Heroic or Legendary character might have on their own.

It's also not something you could use a diamond for, as diamonds are canonically limited in how much PPE they can hold. Palladium is 20 PPE per carat, but that's a system where casters have hundreds of PPE and gain 10-20 per level. We scaled that back for this system saying that diamonds can hold 5 PPE per carat, which is about what a character gains in a rank. I suppose you could use a 6-8 carat diamond, if you managed to find one.

That doesn't mean that your item would be impossible with some other storage medium (a battery or an e-clip for instance), but for a diamond I don't think it would work. If I'm reading that correctly it seems to seems to store 30+ PPE? Maybe it could be used in a vehicle that runs off of PPE, allowing ley line vehicles to hop between ley lines.

For comparison here's a rough estimate of the size of different carats of diamonds. I suppose you could use one if it were big enough.

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Savant
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Savant »

It stores 30 PPE that has one function--keeping it charged (one PPE/hr) so that it gives the bearer the Power Point Edge (which is worth 5 points to most arcanists, and 10 to a Master Psionic). The user only gets the PPE from the Edge, and technically, that's an increase in their maximum power, NOT an instant rush of immediately available PPE.

So, let's say I have one of these, and my character has a base 10 PPE. I activate the gem (spending one PPE from the gem's 30); for the next hour, I have a pool of 15 PPE. However, it takes me 5 hours to get that full amount, unless I have Rapid Recharge or better (I've made the pool bigger, but the water still needs to be pumped in). During that time, the gem's internal pool of PPE goes down a total of 5 points, leaving it with 25 more. If I get to a Ley Line, it will recharge quickly (1 point every 15 minutes, and it won't need to tap the internal supply while on the Ley Line proper); otherwise, I've got this boosted pool of PPE for about a day before the gem shuts down and needs to be recharged. At the end of the period, I could theoretically keep spending my own PPE to keep it active. If I've got Rapid or better, this might be efficient, since I would spend one PPE that I could get back in 5-30 mins, and would keep the rest of the excess.

Edit: As I said, this is a result of the mechanical difference between PR and SR. Technically, there's no such thing as a 'tappable' PPE battery, nor any way to create one using the rules as writ. My lack of familiarity with the setting means I'm not sure if diamonds were originally able to just be used as batteries without any prepwork, or if they needed to be manipulated by a TW first. If it's supposed to be possible to just pick up a diamond and pump energy into it, then that's a different matter entirely, and falls way, way outside the TW creation rules.
Savant
Stat Block
Altara Warrior Woman Crazy (Visibly Altaran)
Agility d12+4, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d12, Vigor d12
Pace: 12/d6; Parry: 10 (Uncanny Reflexes -2); Toughness: 16(6)
Charisma: +2 Attractive/-4 if anti-Altaran/-2 if Bloodthirsty known
Skills: Psionics d12; Shooting d10; Fighting d12; Notice d4+4; Tracking d4+2; Survival d4+2; Streetwise d4+2; Climbing d4; Common Knowledge d6; Agility Tricks d12+8
Edges: Quick, Alertness, Brawler/Martial Artist, Dirty/Tricky Fighter, Mighty Blow, Split the Seconds, Off the Handle, Acrobat, Major Psionic, Gun Nut, Quick Draw, Imp. Counterattack
Additional Edges: Gymnastic Mastery
Hindrances: Curious, Poverty, Stubborn, Major Phobia: Birds, Bloodthirsty, Blind-ish, Quirk
Bennies: 3/3
ISP: 18/20

Powers: Clairvoyance, Divination, Mind-Reading
  • Q2/19 Adventure Cards:
    Rabbit Out of My Hat - Play this card to gain +2 on any Trick test until the end of the scene.
    Mechanical Malfunction - A device malfunctions in some way: guns jam, bow strings break, etc. The device can be fixed by a Repair roll at -4 and 10 minutes work.
    Dressed to Kill - Your hero dresses up, is “on” for the night, or otherwise far more attractive or charismatic than usual. Add +4 to your Charisma for the duration of the current “scene.”
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

For clarification, diamonds (and to a lesser extent emeralds) have the innate ability to be PPE batteries, but it isn't indicated anywhere that it's as simple as any given magic practitioner pumping PPE in to them. They can be used as such if a sufficiently skilled magic practitioners create them, and it's indicated that both TWs and Atlantian Stone Masters are capable of doing it.

PPE storage is really just a subset of drawing PPE from other sources, which is absolutely central to the entire Rifts setting and mythos. Drawing PPE from blood rituals is the basis of what caused the ley lines to flare up in the first place, and now PPE can be drawn from ley lines and rifts all over the world, as well as being drawn from blood and sacrificial rituals. This is covered on P. 121 of TLPG as well as P. 186 of RUE, wherein RUE also gives a few details about PPE batteries.

In case you're not aware, PPE doubles at death which is why blood sacrifice is a powerful way of obtaining more PPE. The coming of the rifts was initially caused because so many people died in short order that their doubled PPE surged out in to the world and caused the ley lines to flare up, essentially it was an unintentional massive blood sacrifice. Now magic is prominent on Rifts earth because of that entire series of events and creatures who are skilled enough can tap in to that power.

The concept of a PPE battery is brought up several times in RUE, as well as in the second world book, the Book of Magic, and Stormspire. It's hardly a new concept to this setting (or fantasy settings in general). SR, as I understand it, is intended to provide a framework with which to be able to transpose ideas from. It was not intended to be comprehensive or limiting, more like 'here are the first few steps, now take it from here'.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Revised proposal based on general feedback as well as private discussion in the GM google hangout.

Base notes: 5 PPE per carat, diamonds are worth about 15,000 credits per carat. (Emeralds are 5 PPE for every 2 carats)

Diamonds (and to a lesser extent emeralds) have a unique property that allows them to be converted in to PPE batteries by Techno Wizards and Atlantian Stone Masters, as well as some other sufficiently skilled magic practitioners (rare). The process for creating a TW Diamond PPE Battery is described below. See RUE P. 131/132 (bottom/top) and 133 (diamonds), as well as P. 186 (other sources of PPE). Also mentioned in WB. 02, Atlantis P. 103 and Book of Magic Invocations Talisman and Energy Sphere.

Diamond PPE batteries can be created by a TW but the final steps in the process must be completed at a nexus point. The TW must make a Techno Wizardry roll at -2 per carat size. More complicated batteries need to be created during PPE surges as described in RUE P. 186. The diamond must be prepared in advance and completed during the PPE surge (the TW roll will have already succeeded at this point, the TW just has to go to the location at the proper time and put the finishing touches on which takes a few hours). Due to the time required to create TW items only one battery can be completed per surge.

Note: PPE Surges in order of power from smallest to largest -
Dawn, Mid Day or Mid Night < Equinox < Solstice or Minor Planetary Alignment < Lunar Eclipse < Partial Solar Eclipse or Major Planetary Alignment
Important note: During periods of heightened PPE there is always a chance of a random rift occurring unless the nexus point is being controlled by powerful magic (such as a pyramid or alien intelligence). Equinoxes start out at a %30 chance every hour, %50 chance at a super nexus point. More powerful surges mean a higher likelihood of a random rift occurring. This could be mitigated by other very powerful TW devices as well, but as the risk when completing a rechargeable PPE battery is high these items tend to be rare and expensive (high TW markup).

Single charge PPE battery: 5000 credits to make a diamond a battery, must be done at a nexus point. Once charge is depleted it becomes a normal diamond and can not be recharged without starting over. Charging requires twice as much PPE as the diamond can hold.
Pricing summary: 15,000 per carat + 5000 credits for one minor upgrade + TW markup.

Basic rechargeable PPE battery: Recharge manually. It takes twice as much PPE to charge as it holds. 15,000 credits per carat + 5000 credits for minor upgrade (making it a battery) + 10,000 credits to allow someone other than the creator to charge the device (major upgrade) + TW markup. Can be created during a PPE surge at dawn, mid day, or midnight. May also be created during more powerful energy surges.
Pricing Summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 15,000 credits for 1 minor and 1 major upgrade + TW markup.

Self-charging PPE battery: Charges at 1 PPE/hour (as per inherent novice ability to charge PPE, assumed to be a novice edge for the battery). Can be created during a PPE surge on an equinox or during a more powerful energy surge.
Pricing summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 25,000 credits for 1 minor and 1 major upgrade (novice edge) + TW markup.

Fast Self-Charging PPE battery: Charges at 1 PPE/half hour (novice charging ability + seasoned rapid recharge edge). Can only be created during a solstice, a minor planetary alignment, or during a more powerful PPE surge.
Pricing summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 65,000 credits for 1 minor and 2 major upgrades (novice and seasoned edge) + TW markup.

Custom variants:
  • Recharge on a ley line (major upgrade) - 20,000 credits
  • May be used without AB (other major upgrade as allowed by GM) - pre markup cost of battery doubles.
I think I addressed most concerns here. It's still very doable by TWs but is more risky and gives GMs more control over how many of these can be created. It also allows for potential adventures through rifts or some creative dramatic interludes when creating such an item.

OOC: This begs the question, how controlled is the nexus point under Castle Refuge and what kind of access do Legionaires have to it? Please discuss in another thread if interested.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Hans Greuber »

I would assume that this takes a TW Build roll as opposed to a simple TW roll... meaning the lowest of TW, Knowledge Arcana, and Knowledge Engineering

Also, to pull the energy out, I assume it takes your AB roll... with the actual number rolled being how many PPE taken out... just like a ley line. Will this also be able to take tou temporarily above your max, like a ley line?
Hans Greuber

PPE: 15 / 30 (11 - 13 Invested into Gargamel, 1 Invested into Humble's Bracelet)
Silver Ring 1: 5 / 10
Silver Ring 2: 5 / 10
Active Powers:
None
Combat Edges/Hindrances:
Hesitant
Arcane Machinist Gadgets Left: 1 /6
Created Gadgets:
Arcane Protection (6 PPE left)
Remote Viewing (6 PPE left)
Teleport (4 PPE left)
Dispel (9 PPE left)

Bennies: 1 (+1 Z) / 3
Base Amount
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-1 to Reroll Fear against Vithen Wraiths
-1 to Reroll Arcana to Find Geist among Mirror Selves

Toughness: 16 (8); Parry: 4; Pace: 5 (d4)
Golems:
Gargamel (Invested PPE, Flying Pace 12, Mind Rider)
Huey (Mind Rider), Dewey, Louis
Alvin (Mind Rider), Simon, Theodore
https://savagerifts.com/sr/viewtopic.php?p=76048#p76048

Hans:
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Golems (*=Mind Link, #=Winged)
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

This is just a battery you can draw on at will to cast spells. It's like having an extra 5 PPE in your pocket. You could theoretically use it to recharge, but if you're already full you can choose to spend the PPE from the diamond or from your own reserves first. There wouldn't be much point on overloading on 5 PPE as it's just going to drain from you faster than the diamond can recharge. No need to roll on it to take PPE out, the device was designed to hold and release energy, just use it as you would your own reserves.

The difference between draining from this and draining from a living creature is that you know exactly how much you can draw and it's portable.

I probably meant to day build roll, I'll edit that in.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Savant »

One further "lore" question, since I'm very much a newb to the setting: Are synthetic diamonds acceptable for this procedure, or do they need to be natural diamonds? This matters a bit when it comes to pricing.

If a synthetic diamond will do, then it's all good. But if it needs to be a natural diamond, then the price of each carat should scale up for bigger diamonds.

Instead of 15k/carat, it should be more akin to 15+30+45 etc. This is because natural diamonds are rarer as you get bigger. This also would serve as a hedge against the fact that, as written now, a single 5-carat diamond is considerably cheaper than 5 1-carat diamonds (especially as you go up the scale). FREX:

5 1-carat self-charging PPE Batteries: 200K + Markup
1 5-carat self-charging PPE Battery: 100K + Markup

Using my suggestion:

1 5-carat self-charging PPE Battery: 250K + Markup

(Just a note--out of curiosity I did some quick Googling, and if anything, my scaling is too conservative. In the real world, a top-quality 1-carat diamond is currently running about $20K; a 3-carat diamond of similar quality prices out at about ten times that.)

If part of the process of crafting the battery is cutting the diamond, perhaps the Build Roll for these should be modified to the lowest of: Techno-Wizardry, Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Science). Techno-Wizards do get Knowledge (Science), but because of the standard Build Roll using Engineering, it's less of an area of focus. This is a way to make battery-crafting a sub-field within TW, without requiring a whole separate Edge.
Savant
Stat Block
Altara Warrior Woman Crazy (Visibly Altaran)
Agility d12+4, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d12, Vigor d12
Pace: 12/d6; Parry: 10 (Uncanny Reflexes -2); Toughness: 16(6)
Charisma: +2 Attractive/-4 if anti-Altaran/-2 if Bloodthirsty known
Skills: Psionics d12; Shooting d10; Fighting d12; Notice d4+4; Tracking d4+2; Survival d4+2; Streetwise d4+2; Climbing d4; Common Knowledge d6; Agility Tricks d12+8
Edges: Quick, Alertness, Brawler/Martial Artist, Dirty/Tricky Fighter, Mighty Blow, Split the Seconds, Off the Handle, Acrobat, Major Psionic, Gun Nut, Quick Draw, Imp. Counterattack
Additional Edges: Gymnastic Mastery
Hindrances: Curious, Poverty, Stubborn, Major Phobia: Birds, Bloodthirsty, Blind-ish, Quirk
Bennies: 3/3
ISP: 18/20

Powers: Clairvoyance, Divination, Mind-Reading
  • Q2/19 Adventure Cards:
    Rabbit Out of My Hat - Play this card to gain +2 on any Trick test until the end of the scene.
    Mechanical Malfunction - A device malfunctions in some way: guns jam, bow strings break, etc. The device can be fixed by a Repair roll at -4 and 10 minutes work.
    Dressed to Kill - Your hero dresses up, is “on” for the night, or otherwise far more attractive or charismatic than usual. Add +4 to your Charisma for the duration of the current “scene.”
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Further revised proposal based on general feedback as well as private discussion in the GM google hangout.

Palladium sourcing: Diamonds (and to a lesser extent emeralds) have a unique property that allows them to be converted in to PPE batteries by Techno Wizards and Atlantian Stone Masters, as well as some other sufficiently skilled magic practitioners (rare). The process for creating a TW Diamond PPE Battery is described below. See RUE P. 131/132 (bottom/top) and 133 (diamonds), as well as P. 186 (other sources of PPE). Also mentioned in WB. 02, Atlantis P. 103 and Book of Magic Invocations Talisman and Energy Sphere.

Base notes: 5 PPE per carat, diamonds are worth about 15,000 credits per carat. (Emeralds are 5 PPE for every 2 carats). +1 day of construction per carat.

Pure diamonds and emeralds have natural PPE storage capacity. A skilled Techno Wizard can turn these into batteries to hold arcane power for spell casters. Use a TW Build Roll roll at -2 per carat to create a PPE battery that stores 5 PPE per carat. Creation must be done at a nexus point and takes takes 2d6 days plus 1 per additional carat to create. Once created a magic user can draw the power from the battery as if they were on a ley line (but PPE max does not double).
Example Batteries The following are examples to provide a baseline for recipes and costs and may be used as is or modified by players or GMs as appropriate.
  • Single charge PPE battery: 5000 credits to make a diamond a battery, must be done at a nexus point. Once charge is depleted it becomes a normal diamond and can not be recharged without starting over. Charging requires twice as much PPE as the diamond can hold.
    Pricing summary: 15,000 per carat + 5000 credits for one minor upgrade + TW markup.
  • Basic rechargeable PPE battery: Recharge manually. It takes twice as much PPE to charge as it holds. 15,000 credits per carat + 5000 credits for minor upgrade (making it a battery) + 10,000 credits to allow someone other than the creator to charge the device (major upgrade) + TW markup.
    Pricing Summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 15,000 credits for 1 minor and 1 major upgrade + TW markup.
  • Self-charging PPE battery: Charges at 1 PPE/hour (as per inherent novice ability to charge PPE, assumed to be a novice edge for the battery).
    Pricing summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 25,000 credits for 1 minor and 1 major upgrade (novice edge) + TW markup.
  • Fast Self-Charging PPE battery: Charges at 1 PPE/half hour (novice charging ability + seasoned rapid recharge edge).
    Pricing summary: 15,000 credits per carat + 65,000 credits for 1 minor and 2 major upgrades (novice and seasoned edge) + TW markup.
Custom Variants A non exhaustive list of examples of ways the above formulas could be modified.
  • Recharge on a ley line (major upgrade) - 20,000 credits
  • Recharge 1 PPE/15 minutes on a ley line (minor upgrade) - 5,000 credits
  • May be used without AB (other major upgrade as allowed by GM) - pre markup cost of battery doubles.
  • Other appropriate trappings (positive or negative effects) as per GM and as per events that may occur at the nexus while creating the device
Note for GMs, the GMH describes how to determine when random rifts open on page 88. At your discretion building a TW device on a nexus may be appropriate for triggering a random rift.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Savant wrote:One further "lore" question, since I'm very much a newb to the setting: Are synthetic diamonds acceptable for this procedure, or do they need to be natural diamonds? This matters a bit when it comes to pricing.

If a synthetic diamond will do, then it's all good. But if it needs to be a natural diamond, then the price of each carat should scale up for bigger diamonds.

Instead of 15k/carat, it should be more akin to 15+30+45 etc. This is because natural diamonds are rarer as you get bigger. This also would serve as a hedge against the fact that, as written now, a single 5-carat diamond is considerably cheaper than 5 1-carat diamonds (especially as you go up the scale). FREX:

5 1-carat self-charging PPE Batteries: 200K + Markup
1 5-carat self-charging PPE Battery: 100K + Markup

Using my suggestion:

1 5-carat self-charging PPE Battery: 250K + Markup

(Just a note--out of curiosity I did some quick Googling, and if anything, my scaling is too conservative. In the real world, a top-quality 1-carat diamond is currently running about $20K; a 3-carat diamond of similar quality prices out at about ten times that.)

If part of the process of crafting the battery is cutting the diamond, perhaps the Build Roll for these should be modified to the lowest of: Techno-Wizardry, Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Science). Techno-Wizards do get Knowledge (Science), but because of the standard Build Roll using Engineering, it's less of an area of focus. This is a way to make battery-crafting a sub-field within TW, without requiring a whole separate Edge.
The source material doesn't specify. I'd assume only natural diamonds because magic is heavily based in nature. That being said, while a scaling price model does make sense, it seems overly involved. The prices I quoted are based in what is quoted in RUE and TLPG. If you want to run a more complicated model in your games then by all means do so, but looking up the price of every possible size of every gemstone is too cumbersome for normal gaming. There's a point where being too stuck to realism becomes pedantic rather than fun.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

Actually it does say, though it would take me time to find it. Synthetic gems DO NOT WORK. Natural only. That said the setting has it as a price per carat period. That price fluctuates but does not increase beyond this.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

High Command wrote:Actually it does say, though it would take me time to find it. Synthetic gems DO NOT WORK. Natural only. That said the setting has it as a price per carat period. That price fluctuates but does not increase beyond this.
I'm guessing it's in world book 2, though it could be buried somewhere under Techno Wizards in RUE.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

PPE Diamond Batteries
Pure diamonds (and only diamonds) have natural PPE storage capacity. A skilled Technowizard can turn these into batteries to hold arcane power for spell casters, in a similar fashion to drawing power from a ley line. This is a house rule only.

PPE Battery Notes
  • Use a TW Build roll at -2 per carat to create a PPE battery that stores 5 PPE per carat*
  • Creation must be done at a nexus point and takes takes 2d6 days plus 1 per additional carat to create
  • Once created a magic user can draw the power from the battery as if they were on a ley line (but PPE max does not double, Tomorrow Legion Player's Guide p. 119)
  • The battery recharges 1 PPE per hour normally and 1 PPE per 15 minutes on a ley line
  • Cost is generally 40,000 credits plus 15,000 per carat - with anything over one carat being extremely rare - plus TW Markup (GMs Discretion)
  • Depending on the nature of the device GMs may impose additional trappings or effects (positive or negative) when the battery is used
*Gem cutting and battery creation is a different skill set than building TW machines and gadgets, use lowest of Techno-Wizardry, Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Science).

Trappings & Effects
Game Masters may wish to impose positive or negative effects when using the battery depending on quality, or the manner in which the item was created. Some examples might be:
  • Light (e.g. Glow with sunlight) or effects (e.g. temporary blinding flash to SBT including user)
  • Fire trappings (e.g. firey aura) or effects (e.g. fatigue from heat)
  • Necromatic trappings (e.g. Fear) or effects (e.g. user seen as undead)
  • Electrical trappings (e.g. Jazz) of effects (e.g. Spasms for user)
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Zed »

Beowulf85 wrote:Fair enough. I do appreciate the input and thought you've put in to this. That still leaves my point that while what you proposed is a legitimate build, it could be done with any power cell. What I proposed specifically requires a diamond or emerald (as per canon diamonds store twice as much PPE though) which is why I didn't go that particular route. Does that make sense?
Absolutely does. One of my early ideas was linking the number of slots available to carats, but I ran into the same problem - if diamonds are limited, why not just enhance some random item instead?

Really, the more I delved into the Power Points edge route the more I was disturbed by what could be done with it; if PCs are supposed to be able to buy a Battle Fury Blade (it seems to be intentionally hard to acquire at start, though MARS has a work around), spending an equivalent amount of credits on PPE batteries is also feasible - at 120,000 credits for 6 Novice edges, that's 10. A TW could be carrying around 230 spare PPE in their pocket... or they could give them to their major psionic friend who would have 530 spare ISP...

Ok, so that's fixed in general by making the Power Points edge only raise max capacity. Savant, looking closer at your build it would only be able to be powered for 15 hours off a ley line, because the edge adds 1 to the activation cost, so 2 PPE per hour. On the other hand, there's not much value to making the item ley-line powered because the storage already recharges on a ley line (1 PPE per 15 mins for having major-slot PPE storage, so even while active it will charge2 PPE per hour). So drop that and add another internal 10 PPE storage and you can get up to 20 hours per day for 120k. Or have multiple of a cheaper version (less internal PPE) and use them in series (activating the next one just before the current one expires; you briefly get the effect of 2 Power Points edges so your max never drops). of course that still assumes regular access to a ley line.

The proposed diamond PPE battery solution above runs into the same "stocking up" problem. They seem much too cheap - remember that these are items that fundamentally break the balance of TW items (as well as powering up mages/psionics) - it would be like being able to buy an item that increases max strain. There are many ways to turn a quick profit in this system, especially for TWs. In fact, in-setting, that seems to be what most NPC TWs do. Even with a hefty markup n diamond batteries, say, 900%, for the price of a Draining Blade (which can be made at Seasoned) you could get a 15 carat fast self-charging PPE diamond, with 10k credits left over toward the next draining blade. That's 60 PPE in your pocket, with all the perks (though you're probably better off getting a few smaller ones, to multiply the effective recharge rate).
Zed, Human Techno-Wizard Alt of Lucretia
Bennies: 3/3 Parry: 5; Toughness: 16(8); Pace: 8; Charisma: +0
Weapon in hand: Vera (TW modified TX-50 Light Rail Gun)
Ammo:
  • Vera - 17/20 full bursts
    Josephine - 6/6 shots

10/20 PPE; 3/4 Arcane Machinist
Current Arcane Machinist Gizmos:
  • none

Active effects:
  • [1/3] Greater Boost TechnoWizardry (+4 steps to d12+3)
    [2/3] Exalted Quickness w/ +1 toughness from trapping
    [2/3] Greater Smite on Vera (+8 damage, ice/fatigue trapping)
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Venatus Vinco »

Zed wrote: Even with a hefty markup n diamond batteries, say, 900%, for the price of a Draining Blade (which can be made at Seasoned) you could get a 15 carat fast self-charging PPE diamond, with 10k credits left over toward the next draining blade. That's 60 PPE in your pocket, with all the perks (though you're probably better off getting a few smaller ones, to multiply the effective recharge rate).
Adjusted the price.

Your arguments are sound but also largely theoretical...If any GM gives a player a 15 carat diamond I'll pull my hair out and ban their IP address.

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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Savant »

Zed wrote:
Really, the more I delved into the Power Points edge route the more I was disturbed by what could be done with it; if PCs are supposed to be able to buy a Battle Fury Blade (it seems to be intentionally hard to acquire at start, though MARS has a work around), spending an equivalent amount of credits on PPE batteries is also feasible - at 120,000 credits for 6 Novice edges, that's 10. A TW could be carrying around 230 spare PPE in their pocket... or they could give them to their major psionic friend who would have 530 spare ISP...
Is the MARS work-around, "Build a Robot Jock with a Behemoth, then sell the Behemoth to buy the gear you really want?" Because that struck me VERY early on. :lol:
Ok, so that's fixed in general by making the Power Points edge only raise max capacity. Savant, looking closer at your build it would only be able to be powered for 15 hours off a ley line, because the edge adds 1 to the activation cost, so 2 PPE per hour. On the other hand, there's not much value to making the item ley-line powered because the storage already recharges on a ley line (1 PPE per 15 mins for having major-slot PPE storage, so even while active it will charge2 PPE per hour). So drop that and add another internal 10 PPE storage and you can get up to 20 hours per day for 120k. Or have multiple of a cheaper version (less internal PPE) and use them in series (activating the next one just before the current one expires; you briefly get the effect of 2 Power Points edges so your max never drops). of course that still assumes regular access to a ley line.
Good point about the activation cost; I'd missed that. Yeah, your adjusted build makes better sense.
The proposed diamond PPE battery solution above runs into the same "stocking up" problem. They seem much too cheap - remember that these are items that fundamentally break the balance of TW items (as well as powering up mages/psionics) - it would be like being able to buy an item that increases max strain. There are many ways to turn a quick profit in this system, especially for TWs. In fact, in-setting, that seems to be what most NPC TWs do. Even with a hefty markup n diamond batteries, say, 900%, for the price of a Draining Blade (which can be made at Seasoned) you could get a 15 carat fast self-charging PPE diamond, with 10k credits left over toward the next draining blade. That's 60 PPE in your pocket, with all the perks (though you're probably better off getting a few smaller ones, to multiply the effective recharge rate).
Side-note: If I ever get one wish from Pinnacle, I'll--okay, two wishes, the first is "Every book you've ever published", but the SECOND wish is, "Errata the hell out of the price of the Draining Blade, or make a version that actually costs that much to build." It's the biggest outlier in the price-list, by far; as it is, I'd recommend errata-ing it as a house rule for the site.

More broadly to this point: I'm genuinely uncertain how much wealth the PCs are going to be getting, at this point, even those of us playing crafters. The wages from the Legion are scarcely enough to pay for a few Minor TW mods, and that's over a few months; merc work pays a bit better, but hardly enough to make you rich. OTOH, there's a result on the Random Mission Tables that basically gives you up to 5 million credits as a side-benefit. The economics of the game are just all over the place, and that makes determining how unbalancing gear can be almost impossible.
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Agility d12+4, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d12, Vigor d12
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Charisma: +2 Attractive/-4 if anti-Altaran/-2 if Bloodthirsty known
Skills: Psionics d12; Shooting d10; Fighting d12; Notice d4+4; Tracking d4+2; Survival d4+2; Streetwise d4+2; Climbing d4; Common Knowledge d6; Agility Tricks d12+8
Edges: Quick, Alertness, Brawler/Martial Artist, Dirty/Tricky Fighter, Mighty Blow, Split the Seconds, Off the Handle, Acrobat, Major Psionic, Gun Nut, Quick Draw, Imp. Counterattack
Additional Edges: Gymnastic Mastery
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

Zed wrote:[The proposed diamond PPE battery solution above runs into the same "stocking up" problem. They seem much too cheap - remember that these are items that fundamentally break the balance of TW items (as well as powering up mages/psionics) - it would be like being able to buy an item that increases max strain. There are many ways to turn a quick profit in this system, especially for TWs. In fact, in-setting, that seems to be what most NPC TWs do. Even with a hefty markup n diamond batteries, say, 900%, for the price of a Draining Blade (which can be made at Seasoned) you could get a 15 carat fast self-charging PPE diamond, with 10k credits left over toward the next draining blade. That's 60 PPE in your pocket, with all the perks (though you're probably better off getting a few smaller ones, to multiply the effective recharge rate).
If you think finding a diamond (which btw is not produced in North America) is easy or cheap then you have not had to do so in character. I have. It is absurdly hard and you are making far too light of the supply issue with your theoretical "cheapness." Please stop making assumptions about something you have not tried to do. You are looking at it in a vacuum of rules and money that does not even exist. Finding them is a rare event. They will be imports from off world (which has its own upcharge) or they will be from Africa or I think South America. Neither of which will be cheap. Actually getting them off world MIGHT be cheaper. The only other source is the rare Golden Age find. There is nothing easy or cheap about getting diamonds or Emeralds.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Hans Greuber »

High Command wrote:
Zed wrote:[The proposed diamond PPE battery solution above runs into the same "stocking up" problem. They seem much too cheap - remember that these are items that fundamentally break the balance of TW items (as well as powering up mages/psionics) - it would be like being able to buy an item that increases max strain. There are many ways to turn a quick profit in this system, especially for TWs. In fact, in-setting, that seems to be what most NPC TWs do. Even with a hefty markup n diamond batteries, say, 900%, for the price of a Draining Blade (which can be made at Seasoned) you could get a 15 carat fast self-charging PPE diamond, with 10k credits left over toward the next draining blade. That's 60 PPE in your pocket, with all the perks (though you're probably better off getting a few smaller ones, to multiply the effective recharge rate).
If you think finding a diamond (which btw is not produced in North America) is easy or cheap then you have not had to do so in character. I have. It is absurdly hard and you are making far too light of the supply issue with your theoretical "cheapness." Please stop making assumptions about something you have not tried to do. You are looking at it in a vacuum of rules and money that does not even exist. Finding them is a rare event. They will be imports from off world (which has its own upcharge) or they will be from Africa or I think South America. Neither of which will be cheap. Actually getting them off world MIGHT be cheaper. The only other source is the rare Golden Age find. There is nothing easy or cheap about getting diamonds or Emeralds.
BTW, in the Canadian Arctic there are also diamonds... not that it helps the availability significantly.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

I'd just like to put down my vote for VV's build. Works for me.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

No, aside from FQ or Iron Heart, almost no one has any settlements of note up there, and fewer still are working on gem mines.

Also, same here in regards to VV's proposal. Call it done
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Diamind mines in the United States. (hint, there aren't many)
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Zed »

Venatus Vinco wrote:Your arguments are sound but also largely theoretical...If any GM gives a player a 15 carat diamond I'll pull my hair out and ban their IP address.
Theory is all i have to work with... but yeah, a 15cr diamond would be way overboard (which was kinda the point). Of course, even just a few 1-carat diamond batteries would be a hefty power up.

Honestly, I'm not sure they should have any set pricetag at all - it's not like you can just call up Northern Gun or Titan and order a supply, no matter how much cash you have.
Savant wrote:Is the MARS work-around, "Build a Robot Jock with a Behemoth, then sell the Behemoth to buy the gear you really want?" Because that struck me VERY early on. :lol:
I was thinking of the recent discussion around EP for HJ rolls and Gargamel getting a BFB with a '1' result on the F&G table. Honestly, if I were GMing I would not let a player sell off a major IF feature (like a robot armor) or HJ/F&G result; to me it's an abuse of a system that clearly wasn't really designed to account for economic hacks (for instance, it wouldn't be hard to make a character that could succeed at hacking a cred card often enough to make it a full-time business).
Savant wrote:Side-note: If I ever get one wish from Pinnacle, I'll--okay, two wishes, the first is "Every book you've ever published", but the SECOND wish is, "Errata the hell out of the price of the Draining Blade, or make a version that actually costs that much to build." It's the biggest outlier in the price-list, by far; as it is, I'd recommend errata-ing it as a house rule for the site.
Looking at it closer, I don't think TWs can build draining blades - Slow isn't on their list. This is getting a bit off topic though, so maybe a new OOC thread is called for.
Savant wrote:More broadly to this point: I'm genuinely uncertain how much wealth the PCs are going to be getting, at this point, even those of us playing crafters. The wages from the Legion are scarcely enough to pay for a few Minor TW mods, and that's over a few months; merc work pays a bit better, but hardly enough to make you rich. OTOH, there's a result on the Random Mission Tables that basically gives you up to 5 million credits as a side-benefit. The economics of the game are just all over the place, and that makes determining how unbalancing gear can be almost impossible.
Some teams have already gotten millions of credits of salvage/findings (including a bag of diamonds, relevantly enough). How much they get to keep is another matter.... but I can well imagine that some of our more monetarily-driven characters keeping certain discoveries to themselves so they can sell them on the black market, if the TL doesn't pay well for them. Simply put, I don't think credits are an adequate way to control access to items.
High Command wrote:If you think finding a diamond (which btw is not produced in North America) is easy or cheap then you have not had to do so in character. I have. It is absurdly hard and you are making far too light of the supply issue with your theoretical "cheapness." Please stop making assumptions about something you have not tried to do. You are looking at it in a vacuum of rules and money that does not even exist. Finding them is a rare event. They will be imports from off world (which has its own upcharge) or they will be from Africa or I think South America. Neither of which will be cheap. Actually getting them off world MIGHT be cheaper. The only other source is the rare Golden Age find. There is nothing easy or cheap about getting diamonds or Emeralds.
I was not making any such assumptions. I was working purely off of the suggested price. Besides - is that not an argument for a high pricetag, or even the "not for sale" tag on the CS stuff? It sounds like diamonds would be even harder to get than salvaged CS stuff.
Zed, Human Techno-Wizard Alt of Lucretia
Bennies: 3/3 Parry: 5; Toughness: 16(8); Pace: 8; Charisma: +0
Weapon in hand: Vera (TW modified TX-50 Light Rail Gun)
Ammo:
  • Vera - 17/20 full bursts
    Josephine - 6/6 shots

10/20 PPE; 3/4 Arcane Machinist
Current Arcane Machinist Gizmos:
  • none

Active effects:
  • [1/3] Greater Boost TechnoWizardry (+4 steps to d12+3)
    [2/3] Exalted Quickness w/ +1 toughness from trapping
    [2/3] Greater Smite on Vera (+8 damage, ice/fatigue trapping)
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Note, the 40,000 credit base price is just the price for everything required to create the PPE battery. It was priced according to the TW construction guidelines. After that comes the highly subjective markup. I mentioned earlier it could be as much as 200%.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

I think we can play test it out using VV's write up. Beowulf85 Inbeleive already gave out some diamonds, maybe it would be a good group to see if the proposed setting rule (really just an extension of lay lines with some added mechanics) could work.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

The old characters have a once carat diamond each, not all of them are magic users. Given the rules about the time it takes to create such an item, they may not have the time to get more than one or two converted (if that's the way they choose to go). I don't even know if they have enough money to do it yet.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Savant »

I think some of the confusion/disagreement is, indeed, coming from the diamonds having a base price, set at 15K credits per carat. Price is a function of scarcity and demand. These are going to be in high demand among spellcasters of all sorts. Ergo, if a base 1-carat diamond is available for 15,000 credits, that means that its scarcity relative to demand is about equal to that of a chain longsword--which are more commonly useful, but also able to cranked out in factories. Sure, you may not be able to buy them at the corner store, but I'd say that at that price, anyone with I Know A Guy, or Black Market Connections, should be able to obtain diamonds in a straightforward manner (at cost, yes, but that's the point of setting the cost).

If the diamonds are more scarce, then they will also be dramatically more expensive, simply because everyone who CAN pay more per carat will, simply to get to the front of the line, as it were.
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Agility d12+4, Smarts d8, Spirit d8, Strength d12, Vigor d12
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Charisma: +2 Attractive/-4 if anti-Altaran/-2 if Bloodthirsty known
Skills: Psionics d12; Shooting d10; Fighting d12; Notice d4+4; Tracking d4+2; Survival d4+2; Streetwise d4+2; Climbing d4; Common Knowledge d6; Agility Tricks d12+8
Edges: Quick, Alertness, Brawler/Martial Artist, Dirty/Tricky Fighter, Mighty Blow, Split the Seconds, Off the Handle, Acrobat, Major Psionic, Gun Nut, Quick Draw, Imp. Counterattack
Additional Edges: Gymnastic Mastery
Hindrances: Curious, Poverty, Stubborn, Major Phobia: Birds, Bloodthirsty, Blind-ish, Quirk
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Pender Lumkiss »

I assumed the price listed is more of the cost in materials to turn a diamond into this ppe battery. To your point diamonds able to have this done would be 100,000 creds if not more. If this is correct it needs to be made more clear that the listed costs are materials beyond the cost of a pure/flawless diamond.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by High Command »

Zed wrote:I was not making any such assumptions. I was working purely off of the suggested price. Besides - is that not an argument for a high pricetag, or even the "not for sale" tag on the CS stuff? It sounds like diamonds would be even harder to get than salvaged CS stuff.
CS Gear is like candy in comparison. Especially old stuff. Finding diamonds is either a GM gift and/or the thrust of an adventure.
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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Beowulf85 »

Diamonds are listed as costing 15,000 per carat in RUE. If GMs want to change that price according to what they think the market value would be, they can. I have stated this multiple times. There's really no need to submit an advanced method of calculating market value for every item. Items have a base price calculated as per the rules that are presented in the system. This isn't as though I just pulled a number out of thin air, you can see my calculations above which are all in line with both RUE and TLPG. If you have an issue with what the source material says things cost you'll need to take that up with the authors. These aren't some weird way of bending the rules that I pulled from obscurity, these are some basic things that I pulled from the core books that are also referenced in other books.

The base price can fluctuate, I'm fairly certain that's covered in the source material as well (might need to go back to Palladium for it). These are just presented as guidelines. I'm really not debating the price any further, if you want to look up the rules about markets and pricing feel free. If you want to create a system for a board wide market with its own price fluctuations this isn't the thread for that, please start a new one.

If you decide diamonds should be worth 100,000 credits per carat, that means the base price of the item will be 125,000 credits before markup, meaning the average price will fall around 250,000 credits (100% markup). If that works for you in your games then cool, do it that way.

As it is, an item that a TW can build for 40,000 credits is likely to cost about 80,000 credits retail if the item can even be found, so I really don't think there's a huge risk of flooding the market. If a GM is giving their players the kind of money where they can easily buy multiples of these, that's the GM's problem.

For balancing comparison, 80,000 credits is the same cost as a heavy plasma ejector which gets 42 shots at 3d10+3 per shot. 5 PPE is casting Greater Smite once for +4 damage, or +8 with a raise. With the leftover 1 PPE you could make it last for an additional round.

For every additional carat you get 5 more PPE and the price of the device goes up about 30,000 credits (15,000 per carat + 100% TW markup). So a 2 carat PPE battery would cost about 110,000 credits, 3 carats is 140,000 credits and so on. And that's assuming only a 100% markup, markups may be lower or much much higher.

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Re: Diamond PPE Storage Battery

Post by Kidemonas »

I know this is a beaten horse.

But have you guys considered just reading the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion and using it for normal Magic items? If you multiply the cost listed by 1,000 credits it should fit without headache.

The book includes guidelines on using magic items, random D&D style tables for awarding loot (if you like random), hundreds of Savage Worlds magic items, and a couple relics.

Many magic items both more and less powerful than the Staff mentioned in the Hero's Journey table could be found. Also included is the guideline of giving magic items 3 wounds making them much harder to break, using the breaking stuff rules from Savage Worlds Deluxe.

Guidelines on Relics, scaling their power and example on page 96 and 97.

The only thing really missing is creating magic items as a character as it assumes it is an NPC activity. But for non TW items creation I would look to Savage Worlds Horror Companion and the combination of the Fetish edge and Ritual Magic.

Shaintar (Arise and Unleashed) has a few edges that give guidelines for true magic item creation, and you can see those influences in the TW item creation rules.

Finally to end my rambling, consider when dealing with Savage Worlds it is all about Trappings. If a character wants to play a Zapper, don't create a whole new class, instead just change all the trappings on the Burster to electricity. If a player wants to play an Enchanter, just let them play a TW, and change the trappings. Instead of Engineering and Science skills change them to fantasy equivalents such as Knowledge: Alchemy, Arcana, and Gem Lore.
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