Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of the
Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of the
Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of the Quick Step
Minor: +5 PPE
Minor: +5 PPE
Major: Power: Speed
Major: Power: Quickness
If Complication is approved
Complications: The Powers Speed and Quickness can only be activated simultaneously AND by dancing to music (and only to music appropriate for a Quick Step). Should the music end for any reason, the effects of both powers fade immediately, regardless of how much time had passed. Furthermore, the powers will only gain the benefits of their trapping if the activation roll for both powers results in a raise.
Major: Fleet-Footed
Minor: +5 PPE
Minor: +5 PPE
Major: Power: Speed
Major: Power: Quickness
If Complication is approved
Complications: The Powers Speed and Quickness can only be activated simultaneously AND by dancing to music (and only to music appropriate for a Quick Step). Should the music end for any reason, the effects of both powers fade immediately, regardless of how much time had passed. Furthermore, the powers will only gain the benefits of their trapping if the activation roll for both powers results in a raise.
Major: Fleet-Footed
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
- Tribe of One
- Posts: 1209
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
You've picked two Powers that Crazies (one assumes purposefully) don't have access to: quickness and speed. With the Enhanced Speed ability, Crazies basically already have speed on at all times. Whether stacking the two is OP is arguable ... but it seems to be allowed by the rules.
I'm far less comfortable with quickness, which I assume was left off the Crazy list because they (along with Juicers) get access to the Split the Seconds Iconic Edge, which is basically always-on quickness, although you don't get extra movement. Still ... what happens it you stack quickness on Split the Seconds? Do you get to take basically four actions/round? Does the world implode?
I'm far less comfortable with quickness, which I assume was left off the Crazy list because they (along with Juicers) get access to the Split the Seconds Iconic Edge, which is basically always-on quickness, although you don't get extra movement. Still ... what happens it you stack quickness on Split the Seconds? Do you get to take basically four actions/round? Does the world implode?
GM Bennies: 7/7
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4412
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
I love the shoes and while sharing concerns about end effect similar to some of what Tribe says as it is powerful, I know it works out awesomely. But I do approve them. (I will just have to make a character to steel them!)
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Yes, they stack; the 4-armed Juicer with 4 Wilk's 227 Pulse pistols and Two-Fisted and Ambidextrous and exalted quickness and Split the Seconds is one of those "ultimate builds", specifically for the John Woo--you get your primary, your off-hand, your extra arm, and then your second off-hand attack, all with no penalty (Ambi eats the off-hand penalties, multiple arms and two-fisted eat -2 MAP each, and Exalted Quickness finishes off the last MAP). Each of them has a RoF of 2, so that's 8 shots per turn, and two turns per round, for a grand total of 16 shots fired in a single round.Tribe of One wrote:You've picked two Powers that Crazies (one assumes purposefully) don't have access to: quickness and speed. With the Enhanced Speed ability, Crazies basically already have speed on at all times. Whether stacking the two is OP is arguable ... but it seems to be allowed by the rules.
I'm far less comfortable with quickness, which I assume was left off the Crazy list because they (along with Juicers) get access to the Split the Seconds Iconic Edge, which is basically always-on quickness, although you don't get extra movement. Still ... what happens it you stack quickness on Split the Seconds? Do you get to take basically four actions/round? Does the world implode?
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4412
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
So Freemage, is that an approval or disapproval?
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Approval. I get Tribe's concerns, but there's nothing here that couldn't be accomplished with a bit of teamwork.
- Radecliffe
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:18 pm
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
I think, however, the key is that teamwork should be required.Freemage wrote:Approval. I get Tribe's concerns, but there's nothing here that couldn't be accomplished with a bit of teamwork.
- Tribe of One
- Posts: 1209
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
SW really needs some better/more restrictive rules on stacking similar effects -- as-is, it's like unpatched D&D 3.0, with way too many exploits that tip the scales toward casters.
But yes, it does appear to be allowed in the rules, and achievable with teamwork. It's also open to abuse, which is why I was raising the concern, although still probably not as bad as a caster using quickness to sling 4 spells a round.
Also, I just realized that the item also adds in Fleet of Foot. So you're stacking the Quick-Flex racial speed boost with an Edge to increase speed, doubled by an IF quality, doubled by the speed power, then doubled again via the two turns granted by quickness? Fun thought experiment, but I'm going to say no for the same reason I'd say no to an extreme Charisma build, etc. Is it RAW? I guess. Overpowered? Unclear. But a build that extreme just isn't the sort of direction I think we want to go on the site. I really like the theme of the item, just not thrilled with the application (and implication) of the powers.
Anyway, that's my reasoning. I'm just one vote, though, and happy to be overruled.
But yes, it does appear to be allowed in the rules, and achievable with teamwork. It's also open to abuse, which is why I was raising the concern, although still probably not as bad as a caster using quickness to sling 4 spells a round.
Also, I just realized that the item also adds in Fleet of Foot. So you're stacking the Quick-Flex racial speed boost with an Edge to increase speed, doubled by an IF quality, doubled by the speed power, then doubled again via the two turns granted by quickness? Fun thought experiment, but I'm going to say no for the same reason I'd say no to an extreme Charisma build, etc. Is it RAW? I guess. Overpowered? Unclear. But a build that extreme just isn't the sort of direction I think we want to go on the site. I really like the theme of the item, just not thrilled with the application (and implication) of the powers.
Anyway, that's my reasoning. I'm just one vote, though, and happy to be overruled.
GM Bennies: 7/7
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
I honestly think the Speed concern will not be as big of an issue as it may appear.
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4412
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
@Tribe of One,
I do not see Speed as an issue. It is nothing any wizard with Burrow cannot already do easily. The balance issues with Quickness are another matter an sort of an all or nothing situation as going from 1 action per turn to 4 is a huge advantage. But that is not something for this item so much as a game wide decision of how to handle it. Some GM's outright ban it, while others like Sean Patrick Fannon did in Shaintar just nerf it, and still others think it is fine and leave it as is.
I do not see Speed as an issue. It is nothing any wizard with Burrow cannot already do easily. The balance issues with Quickness are another matter an sort of an all or nothing situation as going from 1 action per turn to 4 is a huge advantage. But that is not something for this item so much as a game wide decision of how to handle it. Some GM's outright ban it, while others like Sean Patrick Fannon did in Shaintar just nerf it, and still others think it is fine and leave it as is.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Per Gchat I was the one who suggested making the item like an enchanted item, just because dancing shoes sound more like an enchanted item than TW. However, don't crazies have the complication that says they cannot use magic? I get that TW items np, because they can channel their ISP into it, but I wonder about enchanted items.
If I look at the item in a vaccume it does not violate any established rules. It looks fun and good to me. Tentatively approved assuming Crazies can use enchanted items.
If I look at the item in a vaccume it does not violate any established rules. It looks fun and good to me. Tentatively approved assuming Crazies can use enchanted items.
Field Team Six Bennies
- High Command
- The Savage Inquisition
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:10 am
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
They can't channel PPE - that has nothing to do with enchanted items
Tales of the 17th SOG
"In so far as you are concerned, I am the right arm of High Command itself. You are my Fist, be ready to strike at any moment." Major Killian Gregor, 3rd SOG Battalion, CSSD, Chi-Town.
"In so far as you are concerned, I am the right arm of High Command itself. You are my Fist, be ready to strike at any moment." Major Killian Gregor, 3rd SOG Battalion, CSSD, Chi-Town.
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
This item seems to be PPE base no? It literally says the use of magic is impossible.High Command wrote:They can't channel PPE - that has nothing to do with enchanted items
Field Team Six Bennies
- High Command
- The Savage Inquisition
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:10 am
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
It has a built in power source. The shoes themselves have the powers and must have PPE to work. but you could call it ISP or just PP. But PPE is the default for Rifts.
Tales of the 17th SOG
"In so far as you are concerned, I am the right arm of High Command itself. You are my Fist, be ready to strike at any moment." Major Killian Gregor, 3rd SOG Battalion, CSSD, Chi-Town.
"In so far as you are concerned, I am the right arm of High Command itself. You are my Fist, be ready to strike at any moment." Major Killian Gregor, 3rd SOG Battalion, CSSD, Chi-Town.
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Fair enough I don't really care, just pointing it out that he is using magic.High Command wrote:It has a built in power source. The shoes themselves have the powers and must have PPE to work. but you could call it ISP or just PP. But PPE is the default for Rifts.
Field Team Six Bennies
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Actually, looking it over, I need some further clarification before approval:
1: Enchanted items are 2 Major/2 Minor, not 3 Major (that's Super-Tech).
2: The "Complication" is a Trapping for the two powers, not a Hindrance unto itself, so that wouldn't grant any benefit (like a third Major slot to the item). Being able to dual-cast, but with restrictions on how that works, is how Libertas' Boost/Lower Trait spell works, actually.
3: I'm not sure what this line means: "Furthermore, the powers will only gain the benefits of their trapping if the activation roll for both powers results in a raise." There's no indication what the Trappings of the powers even are at this point. In fact, given that the two-for-one is the Trapping, they shouldn't get additional Trappings at all.
4: Any form of the two-spell option should entail rolling the activation Trait twice, with a single Wild Die--it's more akin to using a weapon with RoF>1, rather than, say, Two-fisted or Frenzy. (Again, this is how Lib's B/LT works.)
On Pender's concerns:
This is a consequence of bringing in non-TW Enchanted items as Signature Items, generally. Combat Cyborgs, Grackletooths and Juicers (among others) are allowed to use Enchanted items--indeed, that's specifically why we created the category of Enchanted Items in the first place. Even if EIs had a specific, limited spell list, if it was based on the TW Power list, it would permit quickness. (My point here is, the place for conversation about the consequences of these design decisions isn't in a specific item's discussion--it's in the House Rules forum, and would probably require some discussion about what to do about Sig Items that exist that violate whatever new rules we come up with, as both Grandfathering and Retconning will lead to some folks feeling aggrieved.)
As for Pace....
Actually, the baseline Juicer already has Fleet-Footed. So a Quickflex Juicer is moving at a Pace of 20" with a run die of d12. Casting Speed on him will just boost that to 40".
1: Enchanted items are 2 Major/2 Minor, not 3 Major (that's Super-Tech).
2: The "Complication" is a Trapping for the two powers, not a Hindrance unto itself, so that wouldn't grant any benefit (like a third Major slot to the item). Being able to dual-cast, but with restrictions on how that works, is how Libertas' Boost/Lower Trait spell works, actually.
3: I'm not sure what this line means: "Furthermore, the powers will only gain the benefits of their trapping if the activation roll for both powers results in a raise." There's no indication what the Trappings of the powers even are at this point. In fact, given that the two-for-one is the Trapping, they shouldn't get additional Trappings at all.
4: Any form of the two-spell option should entail rolling the activation Trait twice, with a single Wild Die--it's more akin to using a weapon with RoF>1, rather than, say, Two-fisted or Frenzy. (Again, this is how Lib's B/LT works.)
On Pender's concerns:
This is a consequence of bringing in non-TW Enchanted items as Signature Items, generally. Combat Cyborgs, Grackletooths and Juicers (among others) are allowed to use Enchanted items--indeed, that's specifically why we created the category of Enchanted Items in the first place. Even if EIs had a specific, limited spell list, if it was based on the TW Power list, it would permit quickness. (My point here is, the place for conversation about the consequences of these design decisions isn't in a specific item's discussion--it's in the House Rules forum, and would probably require some discussion about what to do about Sig Items that exist that violate whatever new rules we come up with, as both Grandfathering and Retconning will lead to some folks feeling aggrieved.)
As for Pace....
Actually, the baseline Juicer already has Fleet-Footed. So a Quickflex Juicer is moving at a Pace of 20" with a run die of d12. Casting Speed on him will just boost that to 40".
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Alright, how about this as an additional complication.
Each additional use of this item per session/quarter imposes a -1 to the activation roll per power (so an additional -2 per use)
Each additional use of this item per session/quarter imposes a -1 to the activation roll per power (so an additional -2 per use)
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4412
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
For two powers that activate in tandem there is a existing edge mechanic that allows that in the Shaintar setting. But it increases the cost of the combined powers by 2. So for example activating Speed (1 PPE) and Quickness (4 PPE) together would make them a single effect with a PPE cost of 8. However this particular power is further limited by needing him to play some fast tunes, which I would think can offset the +2 PPE tax for the combined ability.
However I thought I would bring it up for future reference in case we start seeing an influx of twinned spells.
However I thought I would bring it up for future reference in case we start seeing an influx of twinned spells.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Ah, wait, I made a goof up above--for some reason, I got it my head we were talking about a Juicer, so some of my earlier comments aren't quite germane. If this is for a Crazy... why not just go with a TW item? They can have both Speed and Quickness (since those are both on the TW list), it would let you use your own ISP instead of the stored PPE if you need to, and would eliminate the need for a Complication to pay for an Edge--in fact, it would open up another Major slot, sans complication.
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
I was beginning to think about doing like that again. My initial thought was as a TW item and Jon asked me what was being converted. So he made the suggestion to me about Enchanted Items. But now that I have a F&G item of my choice from the cross over (I rolled a 12), I'm thinking about taking the Strong Suit of Armor and one of the two upgrades being the micro-exoskeleton in the legs and base that as the TW system to be converted.
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Well, after talking with Jon, I think the best course for me is to go TW, so the armor that I just acquired will be what gets converted.
Savitaar's Armor of Speed
Minor: +5 PPE
Minor: +5 PPE
Major: Power: Speed Trapping: Lightning
Major: Power: Quickness Trapping: Lightning
Major: Edge: Fleet Feet
Savitaar's Armor of Speed
C and S Crusader Heavy Combat Armor
TW Added ConversionMinor: +5 PPE
Minor: +5 PPE
Major: Power: Speed Trapping: Lightning
Major: Power: Quickness Trapping: Lightning
Major: Edge: Fleet Feet
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Looks good. I believe it would come in at 2 ppe/isp per hour. Cost it out for repairs. If you could also define the tappings a bit more, What do they look like. especially if there is anything mechanical about them.Jitters wrote:Well, after talking with Jon, I think the best course for me is to go TW, so the armor that I just acquired will be what gets converted.
Savitaar's Armor of Speed
C and S Crusader Heavy Combat ArmorTW Added Conversion
Minor: +5 PPE
Minor: +5 PPE
Major: Power: Speed Trapping: Lightning
Major: Power: Quickness Trapping: Lightning
Major: Edge: Fleet Feet
Field Team Six Bennies
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Thank you, the new set of armor that I just got (which is what is going to get TW converted) is Savitar's armor from the The Flash Season 3.
As for the trapping, it's all just cosmetic, nothing mechanical about it.
As for the trapping, it's all just cosmetic, nothing mechanical about it.
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
For some Reason I had thought that TW Items could only have 2 Minor and 3 Major mods until the TW that made the item became of legendary rank, but since I realized I had one more open mod left, I am going to fill it.
Base Armor: C&S Crusader Heavy Combat Armor 55,000 cr
Base Conversion Cost: 5,500 cr
Base Conversion Time: 3d12 hours
1 Minor Upgrade: +5 PPE +5,000 cr +2d6 hours
2 Minor Upgrade: +5 PPE +5,000 cr +2d6 hours
1 Major Upgrade (Novice): Power Speed +20,000 cr +2d6 days
2 Major Upgrade (Seasoned): Power Quickness +40,000 cr +4d6 days
3 Major Upgrade (Novice): Edge Fleet-Footed +20,000 cr +2d6 days
4 Major Upgrade: +10 PPE +30,000 cr +3d6 days
Total Construction Cost: 170,500 cr
Total Construction Time: 11d6 days + 4d6 +3d12 hours
Appearance: See Attached Photo
Game Mechanics Summary: An aura of static electricity surrounds the wearer of this armor when charged, and an aura of lightning surrounds them when either power or both powers are activated in the armor, propelling them to move much faster.
Base Armor: C&S Crusader Heavy Combat Armor 55,000 cr
Base Conversion Cost: 5,500 cr
Base Conversion Time: 3d12 hours
1 Minor Upgrade: +5 PPE +5,000 cr +2d6 hours
2 Minor Upgrade: +5 PPE +5,000 cr +2d6 hours
1 Major Upgrade (Novice): Power Speed +20,000 cr +2d6 days
2 Major Upgrade (Seasoned): Power Quickness +40,000 cr +4d6 days
3 Major Upgrade (Novice): Edge Fleet-Footed +20,000 cr +2d6 days
4 Major Upgrade: +10 PPE +30,000 cr +3d6 days
Total Construction Cost: 170,500 cr
Total Construction Time: 11d6 days + 4d6 +3d12 hours
Appearance: See Attached Photo
Game Mechanics Summary: An aura of static electricity surrounds the wearer of this armor when charged, and an aura of lightning surrounds them when either power or both powers are activated in the armor, propelling them to move much faster.
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
- Hans Greuber
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 643
- Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:28 pm
- Location: The Black Company
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Suggestion... remove one of the +5 PPE minor modifications and add the Jazz Trapping. It adds 1 PPE to its cost per hour (total of 3), but also adds +2 to Pace, and if you roll to activate the armor, if you get a Raise, it also ups your Agility by 1 die type
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
TW items to not require a roll to activate their minor effects, they just pay the ppts. Jazz trapping seems odd.
Field Team Six Bennies
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
If the item doesn't get/require a roll, then it can't get the Raise effect of the Trapping--you'd just pay the +1 PPE activation cost and get the Pace increase.Pender Lumkiss wrote:TW items to not require a roll to activate their minor effects, they just pay the ppts. Jazz trapping seems odd.
Of course, using Electricity/Jazz as the Trapping on one of the Powers would also work.
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4412
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Cleaning up forum.
where does this go, abandoned or approved?
where does this go, abandoned or approved?
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Jitters didn’t this turn into armor?RFT wrote:Cleaning up forum.
where does this go, abandoned or approved?
Field Team Six Bennies
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Yez
Jitters
Temp Stats
Adventure Card
Contact
Enemy
Better You Than Me
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4412
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Enchanted Signature Item: Len Goodman's Dancing Shoes of
Great, moved to abandoned.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell