Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
- Tribe of One
- Posts: 1208
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am
Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
I'm interested in others' thoughts on this:
I've rolled up Extra Arms a few times and always traded it away, because it visually wasn't where I wanted to go with a character or would have caused problems with other parts of a build (ie. a power armor pilot). But since the benefit of the cyber is exactly the same as the racial ability "Additional Action" -- which doesn't have to be an extra appendage -- why not just retrap Extra Arms in the same way? Call it "Move-by-Wire" system, to steal a name from Shadowrun, and say it boosts reflexes/nervous system to Juicer or Crazy level.
Mechanically, the way the rules are written this should be fine. The Extra Arms cybernetics (like Additional Action) doesn't explicitly carry with it any hindrances like Non-Standard Physiology or requiring the use of separate weapons to get the extra attack; however, in practice I think most people assume that it does. This may stem from the fact that both examples we have of D-Bees that have Additional Action (Grackles and Lyn-Syrial) also have Non-Standard Physiology. So, if retrapping Extra Arms to not include actual extra appendages seems like an end run to avoid NSP, perhaps a different 1-point negative quality (equivalent to a Minor Hindrance) would be appropriate? Going with the nervous system augmentation retrapping, something like a Minor Habit: Jumpy for -1 Charisma or maybe a -1 to Smarts rolls outside combat, due to distraction?
Essentially, what you end up with is a 250k, 3-strain way to get Split the Seconds on a cyber character (which is pretty much just MARS, and Glitter Boy, I guess).
Anyway, just kind of spit-balling. Thoughts?
I've rolled up Extra Arms a few times and always traded it away, because it visually wasn't where I wanted to go with a character or would have caused problems with other parts of a build (ie. a power armor pilot). But since the benefit of the cyber is exactly the same as the racial ability "Additional Action" -- which doesn't have to be an extra appendage -- why not just retrap Extra Arms in the same way? Call it "Move-by-Wire" system, to steal a name from Shadowrun, and say it boosts reflexes/nervous system to Juicer or Crazy level.
Mechanically, the way the rules are written this should be fine. The Extra Arms cybernetics (like Additional Action) doesn't explicitly carry with it any hindrances like Non-Standard Physiology or requiring the use of separate weapons to get the extra attack; however, in practice I think most people assume that it does. This may stem from the fact that both examples we have of D-Bees that have Additional Action (Grackles and Lyn-Syrial) also have Non-Standard Physiology. So, if retrapping Extra Arms to not include actual extra appendages seems like an end run to avoid NSP, perhaps a different 1-point negative quality (equivalent to a Minor Hindrance) would be appropriate? Going with the nervous system augmentation retrapping, something like a Minor Habit: Jumpy for -1 Charisma or maybe a -1 to Smarts rolls outside combat, due to distraction?
Essentially, what you end up with is a 250k, 3-strain way to get Split the Seconds on a cyber character (which is pretty much just MARS, and Glitter Boy, I guess).
Anyway, just kind of spit-balling. Thoughts?
GM Bennies: 7/7
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Honestly, it's not the clash with NSP that bothers me--I have no issue with retrapping it that as hyperkinetic movement or somesuch. If anything, I'd say, add "Quirk: Eats like a horse" in order to account for the extra caloric burn that comes from that trapping. Oh, and note: if you don't have extra limbs, some options aren't available. You don't double the weapon's ROF this way, for instance (so not quite as good as Split the Seconds). Though with Quick Draw, you could shoot, drop (with a sling/lanyard dealie), draw and shoot a different gun, then keep going back and forth between the two.
But, there's another aspect, here. Extra Cyber Limbs also requires a Reinforced Frame. yes, that has its own advantages, but pre-reqs are one of the key balancing factors in the system--especially given the way Strain is handled. So long as that is maintained, I'm good with it. Maybe the RF serves to keep the character from injuring themselves from moving so fast.
But, there's another aspect, here. Extra Cyber Limbs also requires a Reinforced Frame. yes, that has its own advantages, but pre-reqs are one of the key balancing factors in the system--especially given the way Strain is handled. So long as that is maintained, I'm good with it. Maybe the RF serves to keep the character from injuring themselves from moving so fast.
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Split the seconds and extra arms are different enough that I would not recommend to treat them the same. It does nto need to be an extra arm per se, it could be a tail or some other appendage.
I am also not really in favor of allowing iconic edges to be picked up by cybernetics.
Now you want to talk about an extra action in a GB or PA I would go with clint on this where you are effectivly picking up an additional hindrance per the cybernetics write up.
http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... cs#p458839
I recently retrapped a lyn siral to a human angel. I kept the extra arms as divine grace, using the same limitations you would have for extra arms.
I am also not really in favor of allowing iconic edges to be picked up by cybernetics.
Now you want to talk about an extra action in a GB or PA I would go with clint on this where you are effectivly picking up an additional hindrance per the cybernetics write up.
http://archive.pegforum.com/viewtopic.p ... cs#p458839
I recently retrapped a lyn siral to a human angel. I kept the extra arms as divine grace, using the same limitations you would have for extra arms.
Field Team Six Bennies
- Tribe of One
- Posts: 1208
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
I'm not sure Extra Arms actually requires Reinforced Frame (although it would be great if it did, because you could opt for RF when rolling Extra Arms on the HJ table.) Every other cyber system that requires a prerequisite uses the words "Requires a xxxx" and capitalizes the name of the required system. I think the mention of "reinforced frame" on Extra Arms is just flavor text, although it does make sense as a prerequisite.
As far as retrapping Extra Arms to not involve any additional appendages, I'd think it works just like Additional Action -- which includes no language requiring Quick Draw or a second weapon to get the benefit. Am I missing something?
As far as retrapping Extra Arms to not involve any additional appendages, I'd think it works just like Additional Action -- which includes no language requiring Quick Draw or a second weapon to get the benefit. Am I missing something?
GM Bennies: 7/7
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Tribe of One wrote:I'm not sure Extra Arms actually requires Reinforced Frame (although it would be great if it did, because you could opt for RF when rolling Extra Arms on the HJ table.) Every other cyber system that requires a prerequisite uses the words "Requires a xxxx" and capitalizes the name of the required system. I think the mention of "reinforced frame" on Extra Arms is just flavor text, although it does make sense as a prerequisite.
As far as retrapping Extra Arms to not involve any additional appendages, I'd think it works just like Additional Action -- which includes no language requiring Quick Draw or a second weapon to get the benefit. Am I missing something?
Reinforced frame is right there in the description of the cybernetics.
Extra Set of Arms (1): A second set of arms and hands can be installed on a reinforced frame, providing enormous benefits at the cost of dehumanizing the cyborg even more. This upgrade gives the character one additional non-movement action, with no multi-action penalty. (Strain 3; 250,000 credits)
Field Team Six Bennies
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Additional action doesn't let you double-down on the same action/tool combo--shooting an RoF 1 gun twice, for instance. That's a core rule, and exceptions to it are explicitly called out in pertinent text. If you have extra limbs, you can already have the weapons out and ready to go, so it's not an issue. But if you only have one 'good' hand, then using that hand for two separate actions via high-speed maneuvering is going to require you to switch out weapons in-between (which requires Quick Draw to do without a MAP). Now, if you have Ambidextrous, you could have a pistol in each hand and shoot both without a MAP, since there's no drawing involved, and no off-hand penalty. Essentially, the high-speed action variant has its own limitations that compensate for the fact that you can fit into a Glitterboy or other 'standard physiology' gear without a problem. That's the downside inherent in not getting NSP as a ride-along, which is why I wasn't particularly bothered by that specific aspect of your proposal.Tribe of One wrote:I'm not sure Extra Arms actually requires Reinforced Frame (although it would be great if it did, because you could opt for RF when rolling Extra Arms on the HJ table.) Every other cyber system that requires a prerequisite uses the words "Requires a xxxx" and capitalizes the name of the required system. I think the mention of "reinforced frame" on Extra Arms is just flavor text, although it does make sense as a prerequisite.
As far as retrapping Extra Arms to not involve any additional appendages, I'd think it works just like Additional Action -- which includes no language requiring Quick Draw or a second weapon to get the benefit. Am I missing something?
As for the pre-req, yes, you absolutely CAN choose RF if you roll EA and don't have RF yet.
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4410
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
I think this is an example of using normal terms and game terms for different meaning the way Pinnacle likes to.
I think the original Extra Arms was intended as only needed the reinforcing to make support of the arms in place make sense without them falling off. Not the actual Reinforcement cybernetic mod that grants bonus t.
I think the original Extra Arms was intended as only needed the reinforcing to make support of the arms in place make sense without them falling off. Not the actual Reinforcement cybernetic mod that grants bonus t.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
- Tribe of One
- Posts: 1208
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Yeah, I think Soren and Pender are both ignoring my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter. But, like I noted, the more liberal interpretation they're using actually benefits most players who wouldn't want Extra Arms, anyway.
As for Soren's point on not repeating actions ... I see that. Makes Extra Arms, retrapped or not, pretty worthless. So, back to the drawing board. I might just have to design some custom cyberware based on the Extra Action ability in SPC2, which does allow repeat uses (and costs the same as Rifts Additional Action, but oh well, gotta screw the mundanes in SR, yep, yep, we do.
As for Soren's point on not repeating actions ... I see that. Makes Extra Arms, retrapped or not, pretty worthless. So, back to the drawing board. I might just have to design some custom cyberware based on the Extra Action ability in SPC2, which does allow repeat uses (and costs the same as Rifts Additional Action, but oh well, gotta screw the mundanes in SR, yep, yep, we do.
GM Bennies: 7/7
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4410
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
This is agree with 100%Tribe of One wrote:Yeah, I think ... my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
- Pender Lumkiss
- Diamond Patron
- Posts: 3648
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:00 pm
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
So what would the reinforced frame in the extra arms be?RFT wrote:This is agree with 100%Tribe of One wrote:Yeah, I think ... my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter.
Field Team Six Bennies
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4410
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Just a generic term for a feature needed to support the arms that provides and has no mechanical benefit.Pender Lumkiss wrote:So what would the reinforced frame in the extra arms be?RFT wrote:This is agree with 100%Tribe of One wrote:Yeah, I think ... my point RE the "reinforced frame" mentioned in the Extra Arms, which is not the same as the "Requires at least one level of Reinforced Frame" that is used in every other cybernetic description that has a prerequisite. Context, formatting and grammar matter.
I would be like saying when referring to a car that the wheels are mounted on struts. It does not mean the wheels are mounted on heavy duty super struts for off roading. They are simple struts to keep the wheels in place and pushing away from the frame.
I think at this point both points of view have been offered and we should ask Clint for rules as intended.
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
The notion that extra arms is worthless without the ability to use it to approximate Split the Seconds (are Juicers not "mundane" now?) seems kind of silly to me, since it's part of the build of two popular races--one of which is explicitly as mundane as it gets, not even able to use that fancy-schmancy cyberware you're so fond of....Tribe of One wrote: As for Soren's point on not repeating actions ... I see that. Makes Extra Arms, retrapped or not, pretty worthless. So, back to the drawing board. I might just have to design some custom cyberware based on the Extra Action ability in SPC2, which does allow repeat uses (and costs the same as Rifts Additional Action, but oh well, gotta screw the mundanes in SR, yep, yep, we do.
- High Command
- The Savage Inquisition
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:10 am
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
For reference, in Palladium's cyberware, you had to have a reinforced skeleton (bionic bones, or reinforced hips, or shoulders, etc) to get extra arms. That said, it's clear that the reinforcement mentioned is a simple trapping, part of the description, not a prerequisite. They are a lot less subtle with prerequisites in cybernetics.
As for the swap out, I'd allow it Tribe, but it would cost you in terms of caloric intake - basically it'd make you eat like a juicer. Other GM's mileage may vary
As for the swap out, I'd allow it Tribe, but it would cost you in terms of caloric intake - basically it'd make you eat like a juicer. Other GM's mileage may vary
Tales of the 17th SOG
"In so far as you are concerned, I am the right arm of High Command itself. You are my Fist, be ready to strike at any moment." Major Killian Gregor, 3rd SOG Battalion, CSSD, Chi-Town.
"In so far as you are concerned, I am the right arm of High Command itself. You are my Fist, be ready to strike at any moment." Major Killian Gregor, 3rd SOG Battalion, CSSD, Chi-Town.
- Tribe of One
- Posts: 1208
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Additional Action, the racial ability that Grackles and Lyn-Sirial get, is great, even if it requires carrying an extra weapon. With NSP (which both would require anyway, due to size or wings) it costs them 2 points, or the equivalent of an Edge. Extra Arms the cyberware sucks - it costs an Edge (usually, unless you take it as part of a MARS package Strain allowance, in which case you're losing way more than an Edge), carries a phantom NSP and 3 Strain, which could be better used on virtually anything else. And you still have to use a separate weapon. Retrapped to remove actual extra appendages and substituting something else for NSP, you can't use the same weapon twice, but can't carry any extra, so you're stuck with some sort of Quick Draw shenanigans to get an actual benefit. And still sucking up 3 Strain. It's a horrible use of Strain and an advancement, especially compared to what you can get as a racial ability (or with an AB ...).Freemage wrote:The notion that extra arms is worthless without the ability to use it to approximate Split the Seconds (are Juicers not "mundane" now?) seems kind of silly to me, since it's part of the build of two popular races--one of which is explicitly as mundane as it gets, not even able to use that fancy-schmancy cyberware you're so fond of....
Yeah, caloric intake (ie. Dependency or Habit) would be one possible substitute for NSP. I was thinking in terms of Shadowrun, where really good Wired Reflexes/Move-by-Wire systems made you super jumpy -- which sounds like the Quick Flex penalty or the Adrenaline Junkie drawback you threw in for the ARES Physical Training origin.High Command wrote:For reference, in Palladium's cyberware, you had to have a reinforced skeleton (bionic bones, or reinforced hips, or shoulders, etc) to get extra arms. That said, it's clear that the reinforcement mentioned is a simple trapping, part of the description, not a prerequisite. They are a lot less subtle with prerequisites in cybernetics.
As for the swap out, I'd allow it Tribe, but it would cost you in terms of caloric intake - basically it'd make you eat like a juicer. Other GM's mileage may vary
I'm also thinking about just building a Move-by-Wire system with a reflex trigger, using SPC2 as a base (since the SPC2 version of Extra Action works like Split the Seconds). Something like Extra Action (3 pts) + Phantom AB: Superhero (2 pts) + Limitation: Can't be used for mental actions/power activation (-1) + Requires Activation (-1) + Minor Hindrance: some sort of distraction mechanic (-1). Ends up at 2 pts, equivalent to an Edge. You end up with something like Split the Seconds but additional complications (doesn't apply when surprised rounds, distractable outside combat) and still costs Strain.
If I get some time I may just put together some cyberware and other mundane-friendly toys for whenever House Rules opens back up. Fight the Powers.
GM Bennies: 7/7
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
1: The Additional Action Racial Ability is a flat 3 points--that's an Edge-and-a-half, no matter how you slice it. Yes, in the two canon examples, it gets paired with NSP, but that's not a requirement.
2: The restrictions placed on a character by the Extra Limbs Cybernetic enhancement are NOT the equivalent of NSP, by a long shot. Here's the breakdown:
NSP:
4: On the Reinforced Frame vs. reinforced frame issue, I point to the full line of the text: "A second set of arms and hands can be installed on a reinforced frame, providing enormous benefits at the cost of dehumanizing the cyborg even more." "Even more" is pretty clearly meant to mean that the cyborg has already been partially dehumanized by other cyberware. If it was possible to have Extra Limbs without any additional cybernetics, that line would make no sense whatsoever. That said, I probably would rule that both Reinforced Frame and Load Bearing Reinforcement apply to the pre-req. Hell, I'd say that if you've got Level 3 Armor Plating (needed to count as MDC), you're good, too.
2: The restrictions placed on a character by the Extra Limbs Cybernetic enhancement are NOT the equivalent of NSP, by a long shot. Here's the breakdown:
NSP:
- You can't fit into a Glitterboy at all.
- Armor and Vehicles (and thus, both Power Armor and Robot Armor) cost x2 or more if acquired after start of play.
- Salvaged Armor won't fit you at all.
- You can't use your additional action while piloting a Glitterboy, because those arms are pinned to your torso or retracted, depending upon design.
4: On the Reinforced Frame vs. reinforced frame issue, I point to the full line of the text: "A second set of arms and hands can be installed on a reinforced frame, providing enormous benefits at the cost of dehumanizing the cyborg even more." "Even more" is pretty clearly meant to mean that the cyborg has already been partially dehumanized by other cyberware. If it was possible to have Extra Limbs without any additional cybernetics, that line would make no sense whatsoever. That said, I probably would rule that both Reinforced Frame and Load Bearing Reinforcement apply to the pre-req. Hell, I'd say that if you've got Level 3 Armor Plating (needed to count as MDC), you're good, too.
- Ndreare
- Savage Siri
- Posts: 4410
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm
- Location: Skagit County, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Retrapping the Extra Arms cyber system
Trying to clean up, should this be considered approved or abandoned?
, and of course update your signatures!
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
"Possible and practical are two comrades who rarely see eye to eye."
Rob Towell
- Tribe of One
- Posts: 1208
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:28 am