Knockdown Rounds (Bean Bag and BigBore Weapons)

[High Command]

Edit: Updated 7/6/17

Bean Bag shotgun rounds
Bean Bag rounds allow a character to se the Push maneuver to move or knockdown a target. The shooter makes an shooting skill roll with appropriate modifiers for range. If they get a raise, they add 1d6 to the resulting strength roll. The weapon has a strength of 2d10 (slug damage) for the purposes of the Push Maneuver. The attack does no damage unless it is dealt because of the Push maneuver.

BigBore Rounds
BigBore rounds. There are two basic types of BigBore rounds the small BB - known as the "BigBore revolver round" as they were first used in the BB-6 revolvers, and the large BB rounds dubbed the "BigBore shotgun shell" as they are roughly the same size and shape as a 10 gauge shotgun shelL But if you break open either sized shell, you will find pretty much the same thing, a metallic ball (large or small), that resembles a steel ball bearing or marble. This "marble" is an impact explosive sealed in a light M.D. ferro-carbon, compression casing. When the BigBore casing undergoes a catastrophic impact, like when striking a target, the casing implodes around the explosive, detonating in a powerful blast of concussive force and shrapnel. The rest of the round/shell is a solid propellant similar to that used in the Wellington Industries caseless ammunition and is completely consumed in the combustion when the BB shell is fired.

BigBore rounds allow a character to knock down their target. The shooter makes an shooting skill roll with appropriate modifiers for range. If they get a raise, they add 1d6 to the resulting strength roll and the damage roll. The weapon has a strength of 2d10 for the purposes of the Push Maneuver. Size acts as a positive modifier to the target's ability to resist. For example, size 2 creatures gain a +2 bonus to the resisting strength roll, and vehicles and robots are unaffected.

The downside is that the weapons have an incredible minimum strength, and unless your strength is the second value, you are -2 to shoot them, even then. Those with lesser strength are also subject to the same knockdown as their target. The other downside is their actual damage is not that incredible, though it is significant. Revolver rounds are meant for anti-personnel usage, and the shotgun rounds have been known to stop dinosaurs, cyborgs, and even power armor on occasion, though it is meant for Crazies, Juicers, Magic Users and Psionicists.

• BigBore Revolver Rounds: 80 credits per round or 10,000 credits for a box of 144 rounds.
  BigBore Shotgun Shells: 120 credits per shell or 16,000 credits for a box of 144 shells.

BB-2 Holdout Derringer

BB-2HoldoutPistol_zpsf373a47a.PNG (11.81 KiB) Viewed 9806 times

The BigBore "Holdout" is a large, western-style derringer using the same high explosive shells, small grenades really, as the classic BB-6 Bandit Revolver. The weapon is roughly the size of a light automatic pistol. The BigBore derringer packs all the man stopping power of the revolver, but only has two rounds, meaning that the outlaw using a Holdout had better be damn sure of his aim.
The weapon's weight (for its size) and gas venting means the gun is very stable when fired, negating its recoil and providing a steady aim for the shooter. The Holdout is a favorite among gamblers, card sharks, saloon girls, shopkeepers, bartenders, con artists, City Rats and bankers throughout North America, but especially in the New West.

• Range: 5/10/20
  Damage: 2d4, AP 0; Also see push attack.
  Rate of Fire: 1
  Shots: 2
  Min Str: d8 to use; d12+2 to use without penalty.
  Cost: 4,500 Credits

BB-4 Magnum Revolver

BB-4MagnumRevolver_zpsdb758aa2.PNG (7.69 KiB) Viewed 9806 times

Using the same rounds/shells as the BigBore Sawed-Off Shotgun, the BB-4 is a "Magnum" revolver designed for use by augmented humans such as cyborgs, Juicers, Crazies, and others with Strength of d12+1 or better, including fighters clad in suits of power armor. The "Big Boss" has quickly become the symbol of male machismo in the New West, and every desperado, bandito and two-bit crook in the West thinks owning one makes him a man. Of course, this is great for Bandito Arms sales, and they milk it for all it's worth! The BB Magnum revolver is a monster of a weapon that is intimidating even to the bravest opponents, adding +1 to intimidate when pointed in someone's face.

• Range: 8/16/32
  Damage: 3d4, MD, AP 0; Also see push attack.
  Rate of Fire: 1
  Shots: 4
  Min Str: d12+1 to use; d12+5 to use without penalty.
  Cost: 12,000 credits

BB-6 Revolver
The BigBore is a large revolver that fires high explosive shells. The "bullets" could be considered small grenades. The advantages to the BigBore handgun is its knock down power, damage yield, and intimidation factor. It is just plain scary to look down the business end of the BigBore. The BB-6 is an intimidating weapon, and adds +1 to initimdate checks when pointed in someone's face.

• Range: 12/24/48
  Damage: 2d4, AP 0; Also see push attack.
  Rate of Fire: 1
  Shots: 6
  Min Str: d8 to use; d12+2 to use without penalty.
  Cost: 6,500 credits

Big Bore Sawed-Off
The BigBore Sawed-Off looks like a sawed-off shotgun and fires a large, high explosive shell and has even greater knock down power. This is another intimidating weapon adds +2 when pointed at most mortal opponents. It is also known as "the Mule" because it has a kick like one. It is not uncommon to see these mounted on a vehicle and used in an anti-riot capacity. Doing so eliminates shooting penalties. Similarly, Power Armor need only meet the lower strength requirements as their limbs act without regard for fatigue.

• Range: 12/24/48
  Damage: 3d4, MD, AP 0; Also see push attack.
  Rate of Fire: 1
  Shots: 2 or 12 with a drum
  Min Str: d12 to use; d12+4 to use without penalty.
  Cost: 15,000 credits

Big Bore Heavy Shotgun
The BB Long-Barrel looks like a heavy shotgun and fires the same high explosive shell as the BB Sawed-Off; it adds +2 to intimidation. A
strength of d12 or better is required to shoot it (those with less Strength will be knocked off their feet, and lose one melee
attack/action); P.S. 22 to fire it one handed. The advantage of this rifle is its greater range. It is not uncommon to see these mounted on a vehicle and used in an anti-riot capacity. Doing so eliminates shooting penalties. Similarly, Power Armor need only meet the lower strength requirements as their limbs act without regard for fatigue.

• Range: 16/32/64
  Damage: 3d4, MD, AP 0; Also see push attack.
  Rate of Fire: 1
  Shots: 4 or 12 with a drum
  Min Str: d12 to use; d12+4 to use without penalty.
  Cost: 18,000 credits

Big Bore Bandit 5000 Railgun
The Black Market has produced a popular, man-portable rail gun infantry weapon. This weapon is light enough for a single soldier to use comfortably but still delivers the firepower of a rail gun. The 5000 series rail guns are effectively high-tech, lightweight machineguns (some argue that they are heavy assault rifles) that fire explosive rounds. The basic design and technology to make these weapons was uncovered by Bandito arms at Area 51! They also produce the Bandit 5000 series as well as knock-offs of CS, Northern Gun and other types of rail guns.
The main advantage of the Bandit 5000 series is that the comparatively light, manageable weapons deliver the same punch as the average rail gun, but are easily used by a two-man team of normal humans, or by a single individual with d12+1 Strength, making them ideal for Juicers, Crazies, and cyborgs, as well as many mutants and D-bees. This also works to the weapons' disadvantage, because they have a tiny payload compared to conventional rail guns, and a reduced range. It is not uncommon to see these mounted on a vehicle and used in an anti-riot capacity. Doing so eliminates shooting penalties. Similarly, Power Armor need only meet the lower strength requirements as their limbs act without regard for fatigue.

• Range: 75/150/300
  Damage: 3d8+4, MD, AP 0
  Rate of Fire: 1
  Shots: 60 rounds (fired in 6 round bursts; 10 bursts)
  Min Str: d12+1; d12+5 to use without penalty
  Cost: 55,000 credits

[High Command]

This basically uses the mechanics of Pummel, stripped down to a single target for Bean Bag Rounds. Alternately the push mechanics will work for bean bag rounds as well. Those same mechanics do not at all reflect the fluff on BigBore rounds which can and will knockdown power armor and combat cyborgs, but don't have big damage values.

Big Bore hit harder, and do damage. The adding effective armor is to simulate just how paltry their damage is. But as long as they hit, the knockback happens.

Bean Bag rounds I'm doing selfishly. Krys (my TA) wants them. The others are because it's been asked for.

[High Command]

Any thoughts?

[Pender Lumkiss]

As we discussed on hangout I would rather see something more similar to disarm where the damage of the attack is resisted by the str roll. Basically the bean bag acts as a trapping on the weapon, not a power. The amount of knockback would then be handled per the push maneuver in core.

BB rounds, same thing as above except you get two benifits of the push maneuver knockdown and push. Which might be a bit much. I would go with just knockdown for these guys using the damage vs str per push maneuver ruiles, the advantage to the BB is also that they do damage as you described.

I think it is fine to apply trappings to a weapon, but a power even so limited seems too much.

[High Command]

Initial post edited. Would like wider input please

[Freemage]

Prequel: Beanbag rounds seem solid. Everything that follows is Big Bore rounds (which I like the idea of; this is all just gut-reaction/first thoughts type-stuff).

First off, an edit: Second paragraph of Big Bore Rounds carried over the "damage only from the Push maneuver" clause from the Beanbag rounds, which seems to be exactly the opposite of the intent. I think you just need to delete that line.

Second: My first impulse is to make everything other than the Railgun SD. You can knock over a Glitterboy, but you can't punch through the shiny shell, even on a lucky roll, with anything less than the Railgun. For a similar reason, the hand-weapons shouldn't help Intimidate MDC-armored opponents.

Third: Flavor-text of the railgun seems a bit off, compared with the actual gamespeak. It says it can be 'easily' used by a lone figure with a d12+1 Strength--but the rules text says such a person would be at -2 to hit and be vulnerable to the knockback effect.

Fourth: Maybe a note about vehicular mounting eliminating the Strength requirement for the Shotgun? That's standard for Railguns, and the other Big Bores are a bit too small for that to be very effective, but a Shotgun should be mountable for a single Mod Slot. I could see 'civilized' areas using such on their sheriff's vehicle, for instance. Good for settling down a bar brawl that's spilled into the streets.

Fifth: I'm not a fan of the 'add 2 to armor' mechanic. I understand the reasoning, but it has the downside of making things just a smidge less smooth in play, since it entails checking to see if the target is armored (granted, in SR, this is far less likely to be an issue than in most settings).

Now, to the damage values, which is where I have to pull out the calculator.

It's always important to keep in mind Acing, particularly when dealing with large pools of small dice. Basically, the Derringer is going to have a slightly higher damage than any laser pistol other than the TX-26. It also beats the NG Ion pistols past Short Range.

Meanwhile, the Shotgun (at 4d4) is competitive with most of the laser rifles and the Ion Pulse Rifle.

However, those numbers all ignore the fact that these rounds have no AP (even before the +2 armor notion).

I'm going to make a recommendation--instead of the armor-boost, just slap a -1 to the total damage of the weapons, period. It'll hedge out most of the edge cases, and keep things smooth (since the player can just include that in the damage roll).

[High Command]

I'll edit out that line immediately.

As for the damage being low, but still MD - remember that the way these works is a grenade is fired and detonated at extreme close range. It is not because of a lack of penetration power, but rather because the design is such as to maximize knockdown, not damage. Simply the act of being pushed back mitigates some of the damage of the actual explosion. But this is still a grenade explosion at point blank range. Explosives in SR are MD, full stop. THis is not a kinetic round, but a slightly weird way of doing a RPG differently than a mini-missile. Also smaller, since the purpose is really anti-riot.

The reason for the intimidation factor is the sheer size of the gun barrel itself. Also it's built into the fluff. In classic it has a Horror Factor better than a godling revealed as an immortal godling with powers beyond mortal ken.

[Freemage]

The rule of thumb is "Is it a tank? It has MDC. Is it capable of taking out a tank? It does Mega-Damage." The flavor text above seems to move away from 'should be potentially dangerous to a tank' territory, and that's where my suggestion came from, but I may have misread the intent.

If it's meant to be capable of damaging tanks, then all good (and I'd say that by nature, yeah, the Intimidation factor should carry over)--but then I'd also up the cost factor considerably for the ammo. The shotgun and sawed-off shells are capable of the same average damage as a frag grenade, with precision and knockdown instead of area-of-effect damage. (BTW, note that grenades can be evaded by lucky folks with decent Agility; these rounds can't.) For a less game-balance-y rationale, the smaller amount of explosives in the shells is counter-balanced by the extreme engineering needed to keep these things from exploding in the barrel.

I can't see any reason for the Shotgun Shells to be less than 250 credits each (and that was me hedging the number downward from my initial thoughts). Revolver rounds should probably tag in somewhere around 150. Bulk for a gross would be 32K and 18K, respectively.

[High Command]

Savage Rifts uses Rifts prices when they are available, and they are there. That's what the Black Market sells them for. Of course local markup is what it is.

I can drop damage a die to 2d4 and 3d4 respectively if you feel it's too powerful.

[Freemage]

How do the rounds compare to grenades in pal rifts, damage wise?

[High Command]

Hand grenades
Frag: 2d6 to 20 ft (3f6 MD, LBT)
HE: 3d6 to 6 ft (3d8, MD, MBT)
Plasma: 5d6 to 12 ft (3d10, SBT)

Big Bore Rounds
Shotgun Round: 2d4
Revolver Round: 1d6 (same damage as the basic Wilk's 320 pistol)

[Freemage]

Okay yes, dropping one die from the damage looks to be the way to go.

[Pender Lumkiss]

I'll edit out that line immediately.

As for the damage being low, but still MD - remember that the way these works is a grenade is fired and detonated at extreme close range. It is not because of a lack of penetration power, but rather because the design is such as to maximize knockdown, not damage. Simply the act of being pushed back mitigates some of the damage of the actual explosion. But this is still a grenade explosion at point blank range. Explosives in SR are MD, full stop. THis is not a kinetic round, but a slightly weird way of doing a RPG differently than a mini-missile. Also smaller, since the purpose is really anti-riot.

The reason for the intimidation factor is the sheer size of the gun barrel itself. Also it's built into the fluff. In classic it has a Horror Factor better than a godling revealed as an immortal godling with powers beyond mortal ken.

Based on this when translating do we even need them to have damage? It seems like such a secondary effect that I would rather in translating make sure its primary effect is given its due. Instead of damage, would it make more sense to give +2 to the push maneuver?

[Pender Lumkiss]

Here are just two simple weapon trappings based on the ammunition loaded:


Bean Bag Rounds:

Instead of a normal slug you can load weapons with these non lethal variants designed to knock down or push back their targets.
Weapons loaded with this can do a push maneuver, use the listed damage as str.

Big Bore ammunition:
Instead of a normal slug you can load weapons or frag grenades with these non lethal variants designed to knock down or push back their targets. Weapons loaded with this can do a push maneuver, use the listed damage as str. BB's give a +2 to their str roll.

This would allow the flexibility to just take a slug or frag grenade and just use either Bean bag or Big Bore ammunition and, boom, you turned the weapon into something capable of pushing an opponent around on the battle field, which is really the essence of what we are translating.

[High Command]

Because BigBore rounds are absolutely lethal rounds. They maximize on knockdown, sure, but they are absolutely lethal.

But I think knocking down the damage is a good way to ensure they aren't too powerful.

[Freemage]

I'm going to say approved at the lower damage rating.

[Pender Lumkiss]

I am not understanding why BB get damage, and then a separate push strength. Just let the damage be the str, that is how disarm works.

I get that savage does not cover a ranged push, but disarm can be done at range and it gets us really close by showing damage vs str will drop an item. If the special ability of bean bag rounds and Big Bore weapons is to allow a ranged push, just using the damage dealt seems to be the best way to go.

The beam trapping for light, I think is what in a way Big Bore sounds like mechanically. A decrease in damage type, and a special effect, like +2 to range push maneuver and +2 to intimidation. I think you guys are already there on this one.

[Freemage]

Pender's proposal (damage +2 Push) yields the first number; the initial proposal yields the second. I've ignored Acing because math makes my head hurt and the cheat-sheet I used to use is locked away in the Pinnacle Forums, and likewise ignored the +1d6 from a Shooting Raise since it would map the same either way.

BB-2 Derringer:
7 vs. 11

BB-4 Magnum:
11 vs. 11

BB-6 Revolver:
7 vs. 11

Sawed-off/Shotgun:
11 vs. 11

Railgun:
19.5 vs. 11

So, as a practical matter, using the damage gets you a worse result (but still a fairly likely knockdown) for the small firearms, hovers right around the same region for the shotguns, and makes the Railgun almost a guaranteed knock-over even for a Glitterboy. (With Size adjustment, the GB has an average Strength roll of 7.) Note: These guns are big, but they ain't Boom Gun big. I would rule that an anchored GB resists automatically.

I've got no dog in this fight either way, but I figured putting the numbers out there would help HC decide if that matches his vision of how these should work.

[Ndreare]

Where is this at?

Is it in use in a game and thus approved or is it still waiting on feedback?

[High Command]

I'm going to use the feedback and resubmit. Topic locked so I can do that.