Site Currency, Changes, and Supporting The Site

[Ndreare]

With the recent changes in site dynamics the question of how to support the site and how will site currency be affected keeps coming up. I think we should have an open discussion here and we can all chime in on what we think.

My opinion is we need to continue having people support the site and invest energy. I would like to keep the Site Currency but change how it is awarded.

My own proposal would be for EP (or whatever name it becomes) to be awarded exclusively for supporting the site.

• Admin the site? Get 3 EP a quarter.
• Running a game? Players pay their GM 1 EP per quarter.
• Creating spread sheets we need? The Admin’s award you EP.
• Creating gear lists (like High Commands)? The Admin’s award you EP.
• Post Rate: For every 5 qualifying post you earn an EP. (Same guidelines as before, the GM determines what qualifies, not just a automated counter.)

This is the chance to propose and get some radical change ideas out there. I have what I consider ideal up there. But here is a place and time to share and articulate what you are thinking.


I also noticed we have been terrible at tracking character slots. Some of us purchase them, and some of us just join new games. This makes me think it is not really the best way of tracking it. Hard to say as someone who has spent so much on them. But it still needs considered.

[Murp]

Would it be possible to get some idea as to the general cost it takes to host the site on a monthly or yearly basis? I really have no idea what level of donations are needed or the amount of traffic that goes through it.

This might be the sort of thing that can be simplified as a community driven solution. EP might not even be needed anymore if it can be replaced by a donation progress bar that simply says "This is how much we need every month to keep the lights on." As of right now I have no idea if we're not hitting enough, going well in excess or just barely meeting it.

It is possible that the site currency might not even be needed if we're able to meet the costs consistently. That said I could also be totally wrong, but it might be worth giving it a try and remove the admin overhead involved in tracking and spending EP.

[Ndreare]

Would it be possible to get some idea as to the general cost it takes to host the site on a monthly or yearly basis? I really have no idea what level of donations are needed or the amount of traffic that goes through it.

This might be the sort of thing that can be simplified as a community driven solution. EP might not even be needed anymore if it can be replaced by a donation progress bar that simply says "This is how much we need every month to keep the lights on." As if right now I have no idea if we're not hitting enough, going well in excess or just barely meeting it.

It is possible that the site currency might not even be needed if we're able to meet the costs consistently. That said I could also be totally wrong, but it might be worth giving it a try and remove the admin overhead involved in tracking and spending EP.

The site is paid for from an infrastructure point of view. So we do not need US dollars right now or even in the near future.

With this I am hoping to get all of us more active on the server. Playing games, running games, building tools and stuff like that.

[Pursuit]

I don't like the players paying the GM to keep a game going, personally. Otherwise, I think Rob's proposal is a good one.

One thing I would like to see change: signature items and character slots should be limited to the games for which they are purchased. If a game dies out before hitting a year mark, you can get a refund on EP spent on a slot or sig item, but otherwise you ought to buy new ones for each new game.

[Ndreare]

One thing I would like to see change: signature items and character slots should be limited to the game for which they were purchased. If a game dies out before hitting a year mark, you can get a refund on EP spent on a slot or sig item, but otherwise you ought to buy new ones for each game.

So for example I pay 5 EP to enter a game. The GM sees I paid for the slot and reserves it for me. But if the game dies before finishing 4 quarters I get a refund.

As long as no refunds for just quitting or ghosting (the behavior we are trying to prevent) I think this is a good way of doing it.

[Freemage]

I admit I'm not thrilled with the idea of losing slots I paid for just because the GM had an RL crisis 13 months into the game. Ditto signature item slots. It would make me a bit leery of trying a newer gm, for one thing.

And I definitely don't like players paying gm EP. While we've allowed ep to be treated as a currency, most of it comes from the site, and I don't think that should change.

[John Reid]

First I would suggest that putting more onus on the GM's to track stuff is not a good idea. I think they have their hands full as it is.

Doing payments between the player and the GM might seem like a good idea on paper but the implementation is going to be a potential nightmare.

Games these days move a lot slower than they used to. Trying to get in 10-15 posts a quarter is going to be problematic if the GM only has time to post once every couple weeks or less. Let's say I do post 12 times a quarter and get 2 EP then give one EP back to the GM. That's playing five quarters (1.25 years) just to use The Rob one time let alone join a second game. I get the bad feeling this is going to disincentivize new players. It may also disincentivize seasoned players too. Something to keep in mind.

Now to my suggestions. I'm going include EP amounts here but it's just speculative so please don't freak if they are too high or too low. Feel free to heap praise if they are just right, however.

1. Rather than lock in x posts per EP I think everything should be based on the pace of the game.

2. The site really needs a dedicated "accountant" to help players and GM's keep track of EP. Someone who's single "admin" job is to keep track of EP.

3. GM's should get 1 EP per quarter they run a game. Add X EP where X is the average post rater over the quarter. Posting once per month is 1 EP, twice a month is 2 EP and so on up to 4 EP for once a week. Keep the GM poll where the GM can earn 0-3 more EP based on player feedback. This is a max of 8 EP or the equal of getting 1 EP from every player in a eight person group per game.

4. Players get 1 EP per quarter they participate in a game. This requires a minimum of 1 post per month. Add one EP if the player's post rate is 1-1.49 of the GM's post rate or add two EP if the player's post rate is 1.5 times the GM's post rate or higher. This results in a max of 3 EP per quarter for a player per game.

5. For every player the first game slot is free. Every game after the first the player puts a deposit down of 7 EP. This is the most speculative amount for me as 5 EP seems too low and 10 seems too high so I split the difference. If a player is engaged in max participation they can earn enough for a second game inside a year. Now, I say deposit because this is just to hold a slot for the duration of the game. When the game ends the players get their deposit back. If the player quits with notice they can get their EP back. If they ghost for a quarter or more then the EP is forfeit. I'd suggest adding a thread to the EP Menu forum for joining a game. That way it will be fairly simple to deduct EP for a game. When the game ends the GM can notify The Accountant or if a player withdraws from a game they can petition The Accountant for a refund.

6. There should also be a review of the existing EP menu to see if any costs need to be revised up or down in light of the new economy. The current sentiment is that things shouldn't be too easy to get and I agree with that but at the same time just like after spending the afternoon at the Boardwalk you want to walk away with something for your efforts even if it's just a couple erasers and a plastic whistle. Having some low cost minor items (like buying an extra Benny) is a good way of keeping players engaged in my opinion.

7. For Signature Item Slots I'd like to see those attached to the player. The signature item itself can be for a particular game and the GM's can approve or not as usual. The slot is in use for as long as the game lasts or until such time as the player withdraws from a game. The number of slots a player has can be tracked by The Accountant.

8. Regardless of the solution implemented I think it is critical that a dedicated admin account "The Accountant" for the lack of a better one be created for the purpose of keeping all this crap straight for the site. I would respectfully submit that the existing admins have more than enough on their plate as it is given my past interactions in this area. And yes, if necessary I'd do it if there isn't anyone more qualified to take on the role. I've been around here a long time and I like this place. I want to see it continue to succeed for a long, long time to come.

[John Reid]

Another thing to possibly think about is to make an attempt to basically "reset" the system for all active users with regard to slots, items, etc. This might not be realistic or popular but it should be thought about. Another task for The Accountant to take on if necessary.

There is also the whole patron item thing. These are pretty popular but there really isn't a way to dole them out since there aren't any patrons anymore.

[Ndreare]

Another thing to possibly think about is to make an attempt to basically "reset" the system for all active users with regard to slots, items, etc. This might not be realistic or popular but it should be thought about. Another task for The Accountant to take on if necessary.

There is also the whole patron item thing. These are pretty popular but there really isn't a way to dole them out since there aren't any patrons anymore.

I paid a lot of EP and time to get 9 slots with signatures. I think it would break my heart to be reset.

For the "accountant" idea the only way I could see that working would be by contracting someone. So maybe @Murp's idea of a contribution would be a workable idea and the funds could be used for paying the sucker... err I mean Admin who does the EP.

[Scalawag]

I have played a number of games on this site. That said I am not currently active in Savage Rifts.

On the question of "Site Currency", I would suggest one addition to the previous suggestions. It is rare, but sometimes specific characters or players may not be liked by the GM. I might add a poll a the end of the quarter for other players to vote on which character was the best in any given quarter. This might earn them an extra point.

[John Reid]

Another thing to possibly think about is to make an attempt to basically "reset" the system for all active users with regard to slots, items, etc. This might not be realistic or popular but it should be thought about. Another task for The Accountant to take on if necessary.

There is also the whole patron item thing. These are pretty popular but there really isn't a way to dole them out since there aren't any patrons anymore.

I paid a lot of EP and time to get 9 slots with signatures. I think it would break my heart to be reset.

For the "accountant" idea the only way I could see that working would be by contracting someone. So maybe @Murp's idea of a contribution would be a workable idea and the funds could be used for paying the sucker... err I mean Admin who does the EP.

Should have been a little more verbose. When I say reset it would include some kind of refund for slots and items. I don't know if it could be done perfectly but if it came out close I think everyone might be ok with it.

[John Reid]

I would suggest trying to recruit a volunteer before resorting to contracting with someone using actual money.

[Dr. Asterisk]

I'll pay whatever is desired as far as currency, EP, whatever and IMO there is not much of a chance someone is going to suggest a price that is too high for me to participate and support GMs doing a good job running games. I've yet to see any suggestion or practice that I would consider burdensome or unreasonable - far from it. I know that is not an assumed thought among players that we should appreciate the GM's time and effort in a substantial way. When I join a game I've already committed to the time and I know this is not assumed universally either. Players need to sign on with the same commitment as the GM to make the game work.

Clarity in policy would help (or maybe it's enforcement) and where the players are concerned, where they need to step up is in participation and time lines. "Here is the setting. Here is the ruleset and any house rules. (stay consistent) Here is what you are committed to as part of this game. Bowing out is one thing but ghosting is not acceptable and it affects the entire game." That sort of thing. It's a game but it also represents other people's time. We lose that idea behind screens and so people treat it as expendable.

At this point I shouldn't have to earn the right to participate in 3-4 games at a time though. OTOH I should be able to be kicked out for NOT participating (and more easily - not taking it personally but if you aren't playing you aren't playing) but earning points throughout the year just to wait to sign on for one more game is more of a deterrent to me than whatever cost there was (or could be) for Patron stuff. If I'm only allowed one game because of limited slots, that's fine too. All of the games I was in abruptly ended within a few weeks of one another so I disengaged. That happened elsewhere too so that's not a gripe - just happened. But when it happened in live games it happened almost exclusively to the ones where people were not IRL or using cameras at least. It happened in the ones where people were anonymous and disconnected.

Link to the players not the PCs and make the players accountable. Connected, enthusiastic players go a long way toward helping GM's. Maybe each player has a page where they ID who they are and what PCs they play. Maybe the new player has to be approved before joining any games - beyond a boilerplate click here to accept. There are a bunch of guys on here who all know each other. Most of the work from the site came from that group, at least to my understanding. I'm guessing the turnover isn't historically primarily in that group.

The suggested currency is the one needed most.








(that's time btw, or effort, however you choose to describe it)

[Corwin]

I see a disconnect here between how the site used to work (with lots of monetary support / patronage resulting in large amounts of EP, plus lots of participation in active games resulting in large amounts of EP, and hence accounts) and how the site seems to operate now. Apparently there is not a lack of funding to keep the infrastructure active, so perhaps the incentive to patronize and hence gain EP is no longer as strong as it was.

Note that I joined uh, like 2 years ago which is relatively recent, so I have been ramping up through this transition period. I have yet to play in a game that lasted very long. I joined two games, and both petered out. Please let me emphasize that this is not a statement of blame or even frustration, I am simply saying I have yet to play a game that continued. I deeply appreciate anyone who puts in the effort to DM a PBP game, and I have no issue whatsoever with them deciding that RL trumps posting on the site. I frankly don't even need them to explain or justify. This is virtual, and your RL trumps it as far as I am concerned. I GM for friends in RL hence this perspective.

However, while many of the veterans have say, 9 accounts, or even 5, I believe I have a total of 3 EP at present. Not for lack or trying to post. However I would point out that for all practical purposes posting in games has netted me 0 EP. It seems that a game that persists for say, a few quarters would eventually net me some additional EP. Perhaps I could generate some content or gear lists, but I have the feeling that this is less necessary that it used to be? I feel like in the early days of Savage Rifts, there was a great deal of "conversion" that needed to be done, due to lack of SR published material. However, with the switch to SWADE based SR, there is a profusion of source material available directly in the Pinnacle published books now, and we know there are forthcoming books which translate the Euro and South America stuff. Hence I would not think anyone feels the need to do conversion of any of that for the site.

So my TL;DR take is: there seems to be a disconnect between the EP "wealth" of veteran account holders, who have many more years on the site than the relatively new account holders like myself. This is not a complaint, frankly I've been able to use the site just fine without any need for EP "wealth" so far. However, I am not sure how much I care about building more EP "wealth" either. These used to be many games running simultaenously (I assume this to be true, as I wasn't around to see it), whereas now, there seems to be only a few running at any given time. I have not seen a need to have many accounts in today's version of the site. So this disconnect has not created a problem, but on a site with only a couple of simultaneous games, there is a diminished value for veterans who hold many accounts.

[Eibhlin]

I'm very new to the site (on my first game) so a lot of this I don't understand. I certainly have no EP, so am uncertain how I could pay a GM to play their game.

I don't see why the GM shouldn't be awarded by the site instead of players paying to play in a game. That seems really weird to me. A better idea if such was needed, would be GM's get 1 per quarter + 1 per every player they have at the end of that quarter. Retain players, gain more rewards?

I also like the idea of paying GM's based on posts somehow. Not sure what a good rate would be, but something to encourage faster relative movement of the scenario (1/month vs 1/week vs 1/day). Not sure what the best way to handle that would be though.

[Ndreare]

Thank you @Corwin and @Eibhlin for sharing.

Some people reacted poorly to the idea of paying the GM. My thinking on it was that the player would pay at the end of the Quarter. May not be the best option. But now we have some ideas and soon one of us will put up a poll with some specific aspect of the system for adress.

As a note, Stoic asked me to set up a discord channel for this conversation and it has been very active. So if you want to jump into the conversation in Discord it seems more dynamic.