Signature Item: Super-Tech Adrenal Control System

[Tribe of One]

This would be a Signature Item for Cantrell in the 13th.

EDIT: After input from Soren

Base Item: Adrenal System (Strain 2; Grants +2 to recover from Shaken, always on)
Abilities:

• Uncanny Reflexes [4; Requires Activation -1; Limitation (see below) -2] (1)
  • Limitation: Lasts 3 rounds; Maintaining after that requires a Vigor check each round with a penalty equal to the number of rounds active; After use, gain a level of Fatigue that goes away after 30 minutes of rest/inactivity
• Extra Action [3; Contingent: Uncanny Reflexes -1] (2)
• Fearless [2; Contingent: Uncanny Reflexes -1] (1)
• Speed - x2 Pace [2; Contingent: Uncanny Reflexes -1] (1)
• Super Edge x2 - Nerves of Steel, Improved Nerves of Steel [4; Contingent: Uncanny Reflexes -1] (3)

Original Version

Augmented Adrenal Control System
Incorporating some of the same technology used in Juicer bio-comps without the nasty long-term effects, this experimental adrenal system allows for brief periods of highly-augmented physical performances, followed by a relatively controlled "crash."

Base Item: Adrenal System (Strain 2; Grants +2 to recover from Shaken, always on)
Abilities:

• Extra Action (3)
• Uncanny Reflexes (4)
• Fearless (2)
• Speed - x2 Pace (2)

Modifiers (Apply to all SPC2 abilities):

• Requires Activation (-1)
• Limitation (-2): Lasts 3 rounds; Maintaining after that requires a Vigor check each round with a penalty equal to the number of rounds active; After use, gain a level of Fatigue that goes away after 30 minutes of rest/inactivity

Alternatively, it could be built like so, using Cyber to get the extra action:

Base Item: Extra Set of Arms (Strain 3; Grants an extra non-move action, implied Non-Standard Physiology)
Abilities:

• Special: Remove implied Non-Standard Physiology so it works like Extra Action (including repeating actions, but no carrying additional weapons) (1)
• Uncanny Reflexes (4)
• Fearless (2)
• Speed - x2 Pace (2)
• Super Edge: Combat Reflexes (2)

Modifiers (Apply to all SPC2 abilities):

• Requires Activation (-1)
• Limitation (-2): Lasts 3 rounds; Maintaining after that requires a Vigor check each round with a penalty equal to the number of rounds active; After use, gain a level of Fatigue that goes away after 30 minutes of rest/inactivity

[Freemage]

Technically, you're shorting yourself--Modifiers apply to the cost of individual powers. I think the below system gets it right, and gets a couple nifty bonuses.

As a result, you could crank this up considerably (note that the Agility boost could be replaced by any other Attribute boost or by any Combat Edge that made sense--not sure if Cantrell has Quick, for instance):

This would be a Signature Item for Cantrell in the 13th.

Augmented Adrenal Control System
Incorporating some of the same technology used in Juicer bio-comps without the nasty long-term effects, this experimental adrenal system allows for brief periods of highly-augmented physical performances, followed by a relatively controlled "crash."

Base Item: Adrenal System (Strain 2; Grants +2 to recover from Shaken, always on)
Abilities:

• Extra Action (3; Fast Action [actions taking multiple rounds only take one action] +2, Limitation -2 [below], Requires Activation -1) (2)
  • Limitation (-2): Lasts 3 rounds; Maintaining after that requires a Vigor check each round with a penalty equal to the number of rounds active; After use, gain a level of Fatigue that goes away after 30 minutes of rest/inactivity
• Uncanny Reflexes (4; Contingent Extra Action -1) (3)
• Fearless (2; Contingent Extra Action -1) (1)
• Speed - x2 Pace (2; Contingent Extra Action -1) (1)
• Super Attribute - Agility +1 Die-type (2; Contingent Extra Action -1) (1)

You would take a similar approach to the other build.

[Tribe of One]

Oh, that's make sense. I will have to play around with this a bit, since it looks like I could squeeze in a bit more.

Edited OP.

[Freemage]

Approved, and glad to be of assistance on the build!

[Snake Eyes]

Looks pretty sweet. Approved.

[Venatus Vinco]

Approved - if you're looking for some Rifts flavour one of the Triax books had a more limited Juicer rig that does almost what you are describing. It was called a JAPE or something like that.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

After looking at it, yeah not going to approve this but it does not matter as a whole bunch have already done so.

[Tribe of One]

After looking at it, yeah not going to approve this but it does not matter as a whole bunch have already done so.

Is there a reason you feel like it doesn’t fit the rules?

[Pender Lumkiss]

After looking at it, yeah not going to approve this but it does not matter as a whole bunch have already done so.

Is there a reason you feel like it doesn’t fit the rules?

The item is not a device it is a piece of cybernetics, and I am not wild about extra actions being allowed for super tech. I notice that they are in the “Cautionary” list.

[Venatus Vinco]

Base Item: Adrenal System (Strain 2; Grants +2 to recover from Shaken, always on)

I thought the item was a worn harness, did that change?

Cybernetics don't fit the SPC definition of a Device as they cannot be easily lost or removed. To that end, as above, I suggested some sort of external juicer type rig.

VV

[Tribe of One]

After looking at it, yeah not going to approve this but it does not matter as a whole bunch have already done so.

Is there a reason you feel like it doesn’t fit the rules?

The item is not a device it is a piece of cybernetics, and I am not wild about extra actions being allowed for super tech. I notice that they are in the “Cautionary” list.

If you notice, in the OOC I built the item starting with the Extra Arms cybernetics as a comparison. It’s really no different other than trappings. And considerably less powerful than an Enchanted item of Quickness.

Also, nothing in the Super-Tech rules excludes cyberware, which still costs Strain.

A harness makes no sense for the character, nor is it anywhere in the description submitted. EDIT: Nor is the “device” limitation required or assumed, as it’s listed as an option under “Allowed Modifiers.”

[Pender Lumkiss]

Literally Super Tech
Since they are not “magical” super-tech weapons are not powered by PPE or ISP. Instead they are considered device built using abilities found in the Super Powers Companion. These points can be used to purchase powers, edges, and skill increases as if the item granted super powers with the “device” limitation. Maximum amount that can purchased is two levels in any single super power. Points cannot be used to increase damage dice for ranged or melee weapons. As with all rules of these type, you may only create items at your rank or below.

The device limitation is baked into the rules itself.

The device limitation would exclude cybernetics.

[Tribe of One]

Literally Super Tech
Since they are not “magical” super-tech weapons are not powered by PPE or ISP. Instead they are considered device built using abilities found in the Super Powers Companion. These points can be used to purchase powers, edges, and skill increases as if the item granted super powers with the “device” limitation. Maximum amount that can purchased is two levels in any single super power. Points cannot be used to increase damage dice for ranged or melee weapons. As with all rules of these type, you may only create items at your rank or below.

The device limitation is baked into the rules itself.

The device limitation would exclude cybernetics.

The sentence you quote is just plain English use of the word "device." They are devices/items/thingamajigs/machines built using abilities found in the SPC.

How do I know that sentence specifically does not refer to the "Device" limitation? Because of this:

Allowed Modifiers
Contingent (-1/-2)
>>>>>>>>>Device (-1/-2)<<<<<<<<<<
Integrated Weapon (+2*)
Limitation (-1/-2)
Power Source (-1/-2)
Projectile (+1)
Ranged Touch Attack (+2)
Requires Activation (-1)
Slow to Activate (-1)
Switchable (+2)
Weapon Trapping (+1)

A modifier being "allowed" by definition means it is not standard. Cyberware, which can't be disarmed or stolen (absent some creepy organ-stealing schtick) would not qualify for the "Device" limitation at either the -1 or -2 level. I'm not using it, so it's a moot point.

Is there some reason mundane characters can't have Signature items? Every AB-using character and their sister on this site has Quickness, but it's the end of the world that a mundane character could get an extra non-move action -- which they already can do with the Extra Arms cyberware -- without being stuck with the aesthetics of additional appendages? You're literally twisting the rules at this point to try to prevent it, but why? Would it be more acceptable if I just took the Extra Arms cyberware and had them enchanted so the extra set of arms was invisible? Mechanically it would be no different, even if (via Quick Draw) I had to swap the same weapon between the two sets of arms during the round. Or I could just get an Enchanted ring that cast Quickness and Deflection anytime I made a Shooting roll. There are half a dozen ways to get essentially the same effect, but I'm trying to use the rules that make the most sense, applying them as written, yet the objections keep popping up. So what is the actual motivation?

[Pender Lumkiss]

Why would you say those things man? Twisting rules, trying to prevent? Why would you say that... what do you mean by actual motivations?

[Tribe of One]

Why would you say those things man? Twisting rules, trying to prevent? Why would you say that... what do you mean by actual motivations?

Because it seems like you're trying to find ways to say no, even though I'm following the rules. Same thing happened before when I wanted to retrap the Extra Set of Arms cyberware as enhanced reflexes. From my perspective, it seems like you're opposed to letting a cybered character get an extra attack - - even though it is allowed by rules and, as I've shown in a couple of different instances, in no way out of line with what other characters can do. It's really frustrating, and I don't understand why.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Why would you say those things man? Twisting rules, trying to prevent? Why would you say that... what do you mean by actual motivations?

Because it seems like you're trying to find ways to say no, even though I'm following the rules. Same thing happened before when I wanted to retrap the Extra Set of Arms cyberware as enhanced reflexes. From my perspective, it seems like you're opposed to letting a cybered character get an extra attack - - even though it is allowed by rules and, as I've shown in a couple of different instances, in no way out of line with what other characters can do. It's really frustrating, and I don't understand why.

I am pretty sure this is already in the game so no worries man. My objections(as stated in my first post) are not going to stop it.

I am not generally opposed to a cybered character having extra actions. There are extra arms, extra actions via spc. I am pretty sure the items for Super Tech are saddled with a device limitation. If VV, or patrick wants to edit that part out in the super tech rules then we are good to go.

But anyways, I don’t think my objections really matter in getting it approved or not. Cantrell already used it, and enough GMs have approved so I think it is already in.

[Tribe of One]

Why would you say those things man? Twisting rules, trying to prevent? Why would you say that... what do you mean by actual motivations?

Because it seems like you're trying to find ways to say no, even though I'm following the rules. Same thing happened before when I wanted to retrap the Extra Set of Arms cyberware as enhanced reflexes. From my perspective, it seems like you're opposed to letting a cybered character get an extra attack - - even though it is allowed by rules and, as I've shown in a couple of different instances, in no way out of line with what other characters can do. It's really frustrating, and I don't understand why.

I am pretty sure this is already in the game so no worries man. My objections(as stated in my first post) are not going to stop it.

I am not generally opposed to a cybered character having extra actions. There are extra arms, extra actions via spc. I am pretty sure the items for Super Tech are saddled with a device limitation. If VV, or patrick wants to edit that part out in the super tech rules then we are good to go.

But anyways, I don’t think my objections really matter in getting it approved or not. Cantrell already used it, and enough GMs have approved so I think it is already in.

Welp, having Device as a built-in limitation would have to be added in, because the rules as written (and approved) say it's an optional modifier.

[High Command]

A word of caution for the item being cybernetics (which seems hinky anyway, but moving on): In case of an inevitable crit fail/Technical Difficulties in combat leading to the need for repair, you have to schedule time with a cyberdoc to have the cybertic removed, then schedule time with the Super-Scientist to have it fixed, and then back to the Cyber-Doc to have it put back in. That's an incredible outlay of time to avoid an external item trapping (whether that involves the device modifier or not).

It's for that reason I would suggest against cybernetics as a final trapping in general.

In regards to the rules, VV has final say, but the initial part of the rules quoted by Pender refers to a trapping, not the power modifier of the same name. It is intimated that most should include the device modifier, but not all must. But all Super Tech items are trapped as devices which must be repaired, etc.

[Freemage]

I think part of the issue arises from the interaction of 'Device' rules with the site's house rule called "Signature Items". A Signature Item, pretty much by definition, cannot be taken from the character on a permanent, or even long-term basis. At most, you lose it for a scene or two, then it's back. That's because it's still technically an IC manifestation of an OOC reward (whether that reward is for being a Patron or for spending EP). This up-ends the usual balance on the Device limitation.

Which suggests that it's that part of the ST rules that may need further examination. I can see both readings, honestly, of the original rules, which means that it's quite likely that everyone reading it applied one or the other interpretation in their minds, in good faith.

[Venatus Vinco]

Sigh,

I see the issue.

If we go back through the discussion we'll see that "device" was supposed to be removed from the optional limitations because it was baked into super tech rules permanently. I distinctly remember this conversation and can link to it if it is necessary.

TLDR Tribe is quoting a typo as the basis for cybernetics. VV's intention when writing the rules was that these are devices - not as trappings but as limitations.

This is my clarification of intent. I will fix the typo in the relevant places. I apologize for any confusion this error on my part has caused.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

Mind changing here. I’ll change my mind to approve. These games are supposed to be about fun and if this thing makes it enjoyable for Tribe or anyone else who wants to follow suit, sounds good to me.

Sorry for being jerk and enjoy.

(I don’t think I mentioned it, but it is a really cool peice of supertech)

[Tribe of One]

Sigh,

I see the issue.

If we go back through the discussion we'll see that "device" was supposed to be removed from the optional limitations because it was baked into super tech rules permanently. I distinctly remember this conversation and can link to it if it is necessary.

TLDR Tribe is quoting a typo as the basis for cybernetics. VV's intention when writing the rules was that these are devices - not as trappings but as limitations.

This is my clarification of intent. I will fix the typo in the relevant places. I apologize for any confusion this error on my part has caused.

VV

It's not a typo if you're trying to magically ban cybernetics after the fact -- I sure wouldn't have approved the Super-Tech rules if cyberware had been ruled out, explicitly or implicitly, because I was already thinking down the road toward an item like this. In fact, we discussed cyberware specifically as a potential base item, which is what kicked off the whole Extra Action debate.

Regardless, we didn't vote on intent, we voted on the words submitted. And as written, the approved rules allow for any item of a technological nature to be modified, with the capital-D Device limitation an option for certain of those items, at the creators' discretion.

As it is, those approved rules allow for modifications to a wide range of items useful to non-AB characters, ranging from weapons and armor to things like vehicles and cyberware (all of which, I'll note, can be modified using any of the existing item modification rules -- Enchanting, TW and Tinkering). Changing the rules (unilaterally, once again, without consulting the GMs who approved them) to restrict Super-Tech to handheld or worn devices is out of line with other options and a significant nerf that eliminates a bunch of cool item possibilities for no reason.

If that's the will of the other GMs (or VV alone), fine. I'll just go with an enchanted item (cyberware, even) that grants Quickness and Deflection and doesn't suffer from Technical Difficulties or any of the other limitations I added to the Super-Tech item.

[Venatus Vinco]

Tribe,

I try not to read tone into things, but I don't appreciate what I think I am hearing.

Given Jon has withdrawn his objection and this is the lowest priority conflict in my own life we'll just let it go with it's original approval. However, I do not like feeling shouted down or bullied. Please read your replies more carefully for how others might interpret how you say it differently then you intend.

VV

[Pender Lumkiss]

It litterally says in the 1st paragraph of supertech that they are subject to some kind of device limitation. I realize there is some confusion because it also lists device as a possible limitation which is weird.

Soren makes a pretty good point that this is not just a peice of supertech that can easily be lost, destroyed, or taken away. It is also a sig item. Perhaps the nature of the sig item gives enough reason for it to be a cybernetic implant. I don’t see why we can’t do both here. Tighten up the house rule of supertech and approve a cybernetic supertech sig item.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Cool. So one other thing that seems cool but odd is the fearless aspect. I have no problem with it. But given that the device requires activation doesn’t it seem a bit useless? I mean, I have seen a ton of combats or situations where the gm asks for a fear check with no opertunity to steel yourself against what is coming.

[High Command]

Pretty sure that's a design feature, not flaw. While the endorphins are flowing, they are fearless, but without, they are just mortal.

[Pender Lumkiss]

Pretty sure that's a design feature, not flaw. While the endorphins are flowing, they are fearless, but without, they are just mortal.

For sure. But I was thinking about its application and that of a crazy. The ability to become fearless after the fact seems, useless is not the right word, but what is the point? After you make the fear check you are already good to go. Oh maybe they cant be intimidated either. I’ll have to look at the super power more closely.

[Tribe of One]

@Pender: Yes, it was designed that way. It could just as easily been always-on (all of the abilities, really, by ditching the Edges, which were just flavor really) but I added the limitation because it makes sense and is more interesting than just being immune. And I can think of several occasions where the big Fear-inducing monster wasn't the first thing we ran into during a combat, so I think it would see occasional use, which is fine. Cantrell has Brave, anyway, this is just to reflect that she wouldn't worry have to roll at all when the adrenaline gets flowing.

@VV: I'm not trying to be a dick, and I don't think I'm in a position to bully anyone. I am trying to clearly express my reading of the rules as written, as well as my frustration with proposed unilateral changes to the rules to better reflect intent. This came up just a couple of weeks ago with ARES, and it bothered me then, as well. If we're going to have a group approval process, then in my mind the group approval ought to be respected. The words as written are what gets approved, and to change them ought to require the group's approval, as well. I'm just trying to state my position there.

In this case, I'm opposed to changing the rules, which I think work perfectly well, not just in this "special case" or for Signature items, but in general. I'd hate for another player to have to go through the same rigamarole to get a cybernetic item approved, or a Super-Tech vehicle or something else that isn't hand-held or wearable. As written, the rules are internally consistent (the descriptive intro refers to a little-d "device," with no mention of a limitation, unlike the later, explicit reference to big-D "Device" limitation) and also consistent with our other item creation systems, which are not limited to handheld or wearable items. I'd like to see it left that way, and have everyone on the same page as far as how that works, but that might be overly optimistic.

[Venatus Vinco]

Tribe,

You are correct, we did discuss cybernetics and even have previously approved a cybernetic super-tech item. So, that is all good.

We did also agree to remove device from the limitations list. Hence my assertions that it is a typo.

So, there is a bit of both/and happening here.

The joys of version control.

VV

[Venatus Vinco]

Removing device from limitations makes this approved sentence:

These points can be used to purchase powers, edges, and skill increases as if the item granted super powers with the “device” limitation.

The core of the quandary. That is pretty clear that these are devices in the limitation sense - and I know that was the intent cause I authored it.

It doesn't matter much in this instance but since you are against editing after the fact. Both glaring inconsistencies will have to remain.

VV

[Tribe of One]

Removing device from limitations makes this approved sentence:

These points can be used to purchase powers, edges, and skill increases as if the item granted super powers with the “device” limitation.

The core of the quandary. That is pretty clear that these are devices in the limitation sense - and I know that was the intent cause I authored it.

It doesn't matter much in this instance but since you are against editing after the fact. Both glaring inconsistencies will have to remain.

VV

A vote of the GMs to remove one or the other seems like it would be simple enough. If the group wants to prohibit cyberware (or leave the contradiction), that's fine, I'll pull the proposed item and come back with an Enchanted version.

[Venatus Vinco]

No need to withdraw,

We have already approved cybernetic super items before (Soren's Lance which is a cybernetic drilling attachment). So, as I said, all good.

VV

[Freemage]

Yeah, I'm fine with undoing the Typo (just delete "Device" from the list of available mods, whcih I don't believe affects any existing approved items). That leaves both this item, and future cybernetic submissions, unaffected. In fact, cybernetics becomes the most sensible application of supertech (since it's harder to steal), which makes sense in setting, since that's where a lot of the cutting-edge research is still going to be.