Signature Items

The place for proposals for Custom Races, Edges, Hindrances, Trappings, TW Modifications, and Iconic Frame Works

Also See Community Projects.
Forum rules
New Procedures

1. Have all the lead-up discussion and inquiry in the "Community Projects" Forum. If general agreement is reached there, formalize the idea as a proposal.
2. All GMs will vote yay or nay. Administrator has veto rights and also breaks ties.
3. Even proposals that are allowed are subject to editing by the Administrator or GMs.
4. Anyone may comment on a proposed rule.
5. Less is more: Players are reminded that when in doubt, renaming or retrapping is always better than new rules.
6. If the proposal only applies to a very limited case (one PC/player) then take it up with your GM. This forum is for rules which will be adopted site wide. Frame proposals with that in mind.
7. New rule: Disagree but propose an alternative. People work hard to write these things and think them through, it is up to those of us with alternate views to present them with as much consideration.
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What Counts as a Signature Item?

Only personal items (weapons, body armor, adventuring gear, items that can be acquired via Hero's Journey rolls, etc.), but not vehicles, Power Armor, or Robot Armor
1
8%
Any item (including all of the above)
0
No votes
Personal items AND vehicles, Power Armor or Robot Armor, provided that any vehicle, Power Armor or Robot Armor must be part of a character's Iconic Framework or MARS Framework in order to turn it into a Signature Item
6
50%
Personal items AND vehicles, Power Armor or Robot Armor, provided that the character must already own any vehicle, Power Armor or Robot Armor to turn it into a Signature Item (but the vehicle, Power Armor or Robot Armor need not be part of the character's Iconic Framework or MARS Framework)
5
42%
 
Total votes: 12

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Signature Items

Post by RFT » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:18 am

Venatus Vinco wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:38 pm
SavageRifts.com Explorer Points Menu...
(10 EP) Gain a Signature Item. This custom unique piece of gear could be an enchanted, TW, or technological item that grants a benefit fitting with your character concept. This will be created using existing house rules for TW, echanted, and Super Tech in discussion with your GM. For power level use a Heroic level Techno-Wizard item as a guide. Limit one per character.
Is it desired for vehicles, power armor, and robots be signature items?

If so any considerations or special clauses?

OOC Comments
We where chattering about this on that fancy dancy hangouts and I figured it needed to be a little more formal.
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[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
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[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:21 am

I am inclined to say "gear" refers to personal items. However I do not know if that is because I was told the same thing when i wanted to make a Signature Power Armor for a power armor pilot or if it is just my understanding of the word. That said I would allow exceptions in some cases, for example if the Iconic Framework already comes with the advanced mecha or vehicle I would see allowing upgrades. Or in the case of someone wanting a Behemoth for their TW I would simply allow it without upgrades and think what an awesome idea.


Reference (why I think gear is personal items): https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gear
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Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:22 am

Thanks for putting this in the forum, Rob.

I think Sig Items should include vehicles, PA, RA, etc., but I’d be fine setting some kind of limitations on them. Maybe a player can choose an unmodified RA, for example, or one with only a minor upgrade or two (instead of a Heroic level RA).

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:35 am

For reference, this question came up because the TW in the 32nd wants a Behemoth as a mobile workshop/lab, and I suggested to the player that such a thing would make a cool signature item.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:36 am

Well... Well... Looks like an interesting conversation. Let me just ask how much for a sig item that includes a Glitter Boy? Or how much for a sig item that turns you into a full conversion borg? Or how much for a sig item that replicates major parts of another iconic framework?

Seems to me RA and PA are big pieces of two MARS frameworks. Sure they are equipment but with their exorbitant prices(RA) surely they are mostly meant as options for those two IFs.

Weapons, items, personal armor everyone has access to them so I think it fine to let those be sig items but to get a RA or to some extent a PA either it is starting as those characters or saving up.

I say this with an eye on a flying power armor sig item myself. So hopefully you guys will tell me I am wrong.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:57 am

Pender Lumkiss wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:36 am
Seems to me RA and PA are big pieces of two MARS frameworks. Sure they are equipment but with their exorbitant prices(RA) surely they are mostly meant as options for those two IFs.

Weapons, items, personal armor everyone has access to them so I think it fine to let those be sig items but to get a RA or to some extent a PA either it is starting as those characters or saving up.
I can honestly see this argument. I’d still lean in favor of allowing them (it all seems like “items” to me), but I can get not wanting to step on the toes of IFs.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:11 am

As I said in the Hangout I think the specific case of the Behemoth I would allow. But i would not let it be modded up and I would only allow it because the Behemoth is a completely non-combat option.

If a player wanted a signature Power Armor, I would only allow that for a character who was playing a power armor pilot, if they wanted signature robot, likewise I would only allow that for a robot pilot.

Even in my case my own Power Armor signature item for a Warlock Marine MARS power Armor Pilot was declined saying it needs to be a personal item, but we have gone way beyond that with people now having tattoos. But still this gets to the point of simply pay to win. A character can literally harness two full iconic frameworks if there is no restriction by playing any other Iconic and then paying for a Glitter Boy, UAR1, or SAMSON signature item.


I am not opposed to special GM fiats allowing stuff well above the keel. But I am opposed to it just being openly approved.
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Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by John Smith » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 am

I think my main concern is in the ratio of the "value" of the base item to relative to the TW mods.

In my very limited opinion, for most sig items, the majority of the benefit of the item comes from the TW mods that are applied to them. In the case of Robot and/or power armor, the value of the item to the character likely derives as much, if not more so, from the item used as a base than the TW upgrades applied to it. The main benefit from a sig item at the point is you get a very expensive thing for free, rather than you get a super unique item customized to your character with specific limited benefits (limited by what TW mods, or enchantment mods or Supertech mods do or don't allow).

For these cases (which are probably unique to Power Armor, Vehicles and Robot Armor), I think it would be reasonable to allow someone to make the item a sig item, but to have to possess the item first. IE "You've got a Robot armor that you want to be your sig item? Awesome, apply the TW advances (or equivalent) to it".

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:33 am

John Smith wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 am
I think my main concern is in the ratio of the "value" of the base item to relative to the TW mods.

In my very limited opinion, for most sig items, the majority of the benefit of the item comes from the TW mods that are applied to them. In the case of Robot and/or power armor, the value of the item to the character likely derives as much, if not more so, from the item used as a base than the TW upgrades applied to it. The main benefit from a sig item at the point is you get a very expensive thing for free, rather than you get a super unique item customized to your character with specific limited benefits (limited by what TW mods, or enchantment mods or Supertech mods do or don't allow).

For these cases (which are probably unique to Power Armor, Vehicles and Robot Armor), I think it would be reasonable to allow someone to make the item a sig item, but to have to possess the item first. IE "You've got a Robot armor that you want to be your sig item? Awesome, apply the TW advances (or equivalent) to it".
Makes a ton of sense.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:38 am

John Smith wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:29 am

For these cases (which are probably unique to Power Armor, Vehicles and Robot Armor), I think it would be reasonable to allow someone to make the item a sig item, but to have to possess the item first. IE "You've got a Robot armor that you want to be your sig item? Awesome, apply the TW advances (or equivalent) to it".
I could get behind this.

I'd maybe want to make an exception for some of the more personal vehicles (motorcycles, hovercycles, big boss ATVs and the like), but this makes sense.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:53 am

I don't think I'd go past Hovercycles, at most, honestly--not the Big Boss.

I am open to the notion of specific IFs being allowed to customize their Iconic Feature with the Signature Item rules, though. So--PA Jock can mod their Power Armor, RA Jocks can mod their Robot Armor, Operators can mod their Vehicle... and yes, if we went this way, I'd say that GBs should be able to mod their suit.

And Combat Cyborgs should be able to SigItem their cyberware, which is something we've been hesitant on before. Maybe Headhunters and City Rats, too (since they all start with pre-installed cyberware).

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:54 am

My thoughts, based on how this has been approached in practice/prior conversations, etc:
  • The base item for a sig item can be any piece of "gear" -- generally defined as a not-previously modded/enchanted personal weapon, suit of personal armor, cybernetic system or item from the "Adventuring Gear" section (or similar sections in Sci-Fi Companion, etc.) -- whether or not the player already has it in their possession from character generation
    • If you want this to be Coalition/restricted gear, you need to spend 3 EP to obtain access for your sig item
    • Items with very minor mods (like the patron jacket) are an exception, and can be used as a base item
  • Vehicles, power armor and robots (which are typically gained only as part of an IF) can be the basis for a signature item, but the character needs to already possess them (ie., you can't pick them up solely with the Signature Item benefit)
    • I'd probably make an exception for a very low-powered vehicle like a motorcycle, hovercycle, unarmed Big Boss or jetpack, and allow a player to pick one of those up without burning an Edge on Rich, etc.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:56 am

Freemage wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:53 am
I don't think I'd go past Hovercycles, at most, honestly--not the Big Boss.
Really? But the Big Boss is so cheapo. I'm surprised that's where you'd draw the line.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:01 am

Because it was elaborated on in Hangouts, I'm bringing it back here: what would folks think of a credit cap on the base item? And, if so, what would that credit cap be? 50k? 100k?

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:06 am

Pursuit wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:56 am
Freemage wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:53 am
I don't think I'd go past Hovercycles, at most, honestly--not the Big Boss.
Really? But the Big Boss is so cheapo. I'm surprised that's where you'd draw the line.
It's less about base cost (which I think is a bad basis for this), and mostly that once you get to the Big Boss, you're talking about a vehicle that can carry (almost) an entire team. Meaning that the entire team gets the benefits of the mods. There's a power scale that comes into that.

I really think for Modding things like Robot Armor, multipassenger vehicles and Power Armors, we should stick to the IFs. For non-IF acquisitions, I'm still in line with the TW just getting a baseline Behemoth, for instance.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:08 am

If a change is needed, I think John has the right idea.

Nearly everything can be acquired at char gen depending on if choices. Johns suggestion knocks out just randomly finding a super-souped up vehicle while also letting certain IFs have a “signature” ride.

Cuts the potential for abuse while keeping the “signature” intent, imo.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:09 am

Pursuit wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:01 am
Because it was elaborated on in Hangouts, I'm bringing it back here: what would folks think of a credit cap on the base item? And, if so, what would that credit cap be? 50k? 100k?
Given that we have modded Gladius Armors on site already, you'd have to make it at least 150K. And honestly, I'm still not fond of the price-cap approach. It's conceptual, for me. We have gear-based IFs; if you want a special piece of gear of that sort, you should have to be in the IF. Otherwise, just being a TW who stomps around town in a Behemoth is enough of a 'special' factor already.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:12 am

I dislike the thought of bringing credit or edge-based criteria. The rule would turn wonky, and disallow things that shouldn’t be a problem. Johns idea, imo, solves the same issue with a simpler ruling.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:31 am

Koshnek wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:12 am
I dislike the thought of bringing credit or edge-based criteria. The rule would turn wonky, and disallow things that shouldn’t be a problem. Johns idea, imo, solves the same issue with a simpler ruling.
I'm still not fond of "Oh, hey, we just captured this off-the-rack Behmoth in a fight, now I'm gonna declare it my Signature Item for my Ley Line Walker and get it a whole mess of free mods."

I don't see any wonkiness in tying it to IFs for the 'big gear', personally.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:01 am

@Freemage mage I could be wrong, but I think you’re saying the exact same thing as I am? :D

No, you’re not. But I can get behind your idea too.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:08 am

Actually, why not, @Freemage ? Presumably, the char still has to find a supertech or TW to convert the item. That in itself could be a quest. It shouldn’t just magically acquire mods all of a sudden. Or at the very least a trip back to castle refuge or a similar home base.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:40 pm

For armed vehicles, PA and RA, I'm good with requiring them to be "paid for" via an IF somehow, and disallowing any "found" or GM-granted vehicles from being made into Signature Items.

If a GM through fiat wants to gift players with vehicles -- even modded/Super-Teched vehicles -- that's their prerogative. But those things don't necessarily transfer from game to game. Signature Items, in theory, should transfer game to game and are treated as a base part of the character that is not subject to GM whim. (I know, we do let GM's exercise some discretion over individual items, and in some cases Sig Items have been prohibited from certain games. But that's the exception. Generally, becoming a Patron gives you the "right" to have a Sig Item.)

I think we want some standardization, rather than getting into situations where players in one game can get Signature Items that are vastly more powerful than those in other games. Saying "You get one item (limited to the sort of thing you could acquire via Rich) with heroic-tier mods on it, or you can add heroic mods to any one thing you already have as part of your IF/build" keeps everyone on a level-ish playing field.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:51 pm

As long as you can sig your starting gear or something you acquire that is in line with your IF I’m fine with it.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:18 pm

Koshnek wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:08 am
Actually, why not, @Freemage ? Presumably, the char still has to find a supertech or TW to convert the item. That in itself could be a quest. It shouldn’t just magically acquire mods all of a sudden. Or at the very least a trip back to castle refuge or a similar home base.
That's just it--most sig items get handwavium to be acquired--sometimes it's a brief inconvenience or delay, but just about all of them end up in play the same session/quarter they get approved. And you don't have to pay for them or perform a quest to get them.

Frankly, if you have to go through all that, then it's not a Signature Item, it's a GM story reward, which is a completely different matter.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:22 pm

I'm going to propose a slightly different wording, but similar in concept to Tribe's:

"You get one item (limited to the sort of thing you could acquire via HJ Table rolls) with heroic-tier mods on it, or you can add heroic mods to any one thing you already have as part of your IF/build."

Thus, you can get a tricked-out Shadowcloak, or any suit of body armor, but Vehicles proper would be for Operators, giving them the same sort of niche protection we're affording to PA and RA jocks.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:35 pm

Freemage wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:22 pm
"You get one item (limited to the sort of thing you could acquire via HJ Table rolls) with heroic-tier mods on it, or you can add heroic mods to any one thing you already have as part of your IF/build."
I do like this resolution and would vote for it.
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  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:38 pm

Freemage wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:22 pm
I'm going to propose a slightly different wording, but similar in concept to Tribe's:

"You get one item (limited to the sort of thing you could acquire via HJ Table rolls) with heroic-tier mods on it, or you can add heroic mods to any one thing you already have as part of your IF/build."

Thus, you can get a tricked-out Shadowcloak, or any suit of body armor, but Vehicles proper would be for Operators, giving them the same sort of niche protection we're affording to PA and RA jocks.
Anything we can do to add in a bit of what John Smith was laying down for folks that have skimped and saved 40 million creds over 5 years and would like to make that titan robot armor they just bought their sig item and trick it out with the tow package?

Also what do you mean tricked out shadow cloak?
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:15 pm

The idea of pimping your newly acquired ride as your sig item seems to be an unpopular one. Although if you’ved saves that many creds, you can probably pimp your own ride :p.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:29 pm

Pender Lumkiss wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:38 pm

Anything we can do to add in a bit of what John Smith was laying down for folks that have skimped and saved 40 million creds over 5 years and would like to make that titan robot armor they just bought their sig item and trick it out with the tow package?

Also what do you mean tricked out shadow cloak?
I hope not. That is specifically what I am against as a player and GM this just sounds like a bad way to go.
Shaping Worlds Together
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The 99's Game Master Bennies 6
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Recurring NPCs (all but Grimm reset to 0 at end of each Quarter)
  • Danielson 0 (spent to set the stage)
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Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
Castruccio and the Naruni
Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by John Smith » Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:59 pm

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of signature items in general. I think they are just an unnecessary instance of power creep. But I don't see the difference in applying TW mods to a vehicle vs a piece of gear. The allowable mods are the same. On a scale of 1 to 10 on how much I really care though, my opinion is only like a 3

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:09 pm

John Smith wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:59 pm
To be honest, I'm not a big fan of signature items in general. I think they are just an unnecessary instance of power creep. But I don't see the difference in applying TW mods to a vehicle vs a piece of gear. The allowable mods are the same. On a scale of 1 to 10 on how much I really care though, my opinion is only like a 3
Not a fan of them as a player or a GM. I care at lvl 10.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:14 pm

RFT wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:29 pm
Pender Lumkiss wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:38 pm

Anything we can do to add in a bit of what John Smith was laying down for folks that have skimped and saved 40 million creds over 5 years and would like to make that titan robot armor they just bought their sig item and trick it out with the tow package?

Also what do you mean tricked out shadow cloak?
I hope not. That is specifically what I am against as a player and GM this just sounds like a bad way to go.
So only folks that have the items intrinsically within their IF can have those items as sig items no matter what? Or that RA, PA, vehicles are outside the term items when it comes to a sig item and cannot be modified as a sig item?
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:16 pm

My thing is with Signature items they have a sort of plot immunity to them. For example the 99 have just spent 5 months real time and three battles without most of their awesome gear because I arranged an awesome deal for them by giving them a million credits. While a signature item would not be parted from the players like that, so now a player has a giant piece of signature gear that belongs to another IF. It is wiggy IMHO
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The 99's Game Master Bennies 6
  • +6 Players
Nightbane Game Master Bennies 4 +1 Golden Benny
Recurring NPCs (all but Grimm reset to 0 at end of each Quarter)
  • Danielson 0 (spent to set the stage)
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    -1 For Grudge Match Reroll Damage
    -1 For Grudge Match to EE Agility
    -1 Extra Effort dramatic Task to stop hackers
    +1 Joker for Grudge Match
    -1 Grudge Match - that little bastard was fast
    -1 Grudge Match - perhaps unfairly fast
Nemesis and The Pursuit
Nemesis (Captain - Temporal Wizard) 2
Royce (Second Officer - Charmer) 4 Elan
Grudge (Security - Brute) 1 Unlucky -1 for Grudge Match Extra Effort
Hiesh (Tactical - Illusionist) 2
Iasah (Ally - Godling) 4 Elan
Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
Castruccio and the Naruni
Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pender Lumkiss » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:56 pm

RFT wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:16 pm
My thing is with Signature items they have a sort of plot immunity to them. For example the 99 have just spent 5 months real time and three battles without most of their awesome gear because I arranged an awesome deal for them by giving them a million credits. While a signature item would not be parted from the players like that, so now a player has a giant piece of signature gear that belongs to another IF. It is wiggy IMHO
I get that and it makes sense. Really if you are going to have a PA, RA, vehicle I would expect you to be those types of IFs
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:30 pm

Being it's been semi-brought up. I'd be fine if there weren't any sig items. The one I have is actually pretty integral to the character, but for roleplay reasons. It's half his reason to be on the team he's on, and I love the story behind it and the interaction with it. On the other hand, I've been considering getting another one, but just because they're big and shiny and would make my character that much stronger. Which, in hind sight, may not be very fun for the other players who may not have them or may not be able to afford them any time soon.

I'd honestly rather have an edge or edge tree to acquire "special items" like in Shaintar than to have Sig Items. I would have used a system like that to get the first item described above. I'm probably just obsessed, but I take those type of edges...every time.

Sig items are pretty dang strong, too. To give a way 2 minors (together probably worth an edge) and 4 major's (4 edges)...That's kind of like selling an entire rank-up (4 advances). Granted they can be broken, temporarily taken away, blah, blah...Still. They come back. Add that onto patron items which are also pretty strong...

I would rather just have edges.

Assuming the above is another unpopular opinion; I support Soren's or John's proposal.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by John Smith » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:36 pm

Haha I'm gonna laugh if the result of this discussion is we shouldn't have sig items, but that's my vote :D

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:08 am

John Smith wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:36 pm
Haha I'm gonna laugh if the result of this discussion is we shouldn't have sig items, but that's my vote :D
John, so help me if you get my sig items banned...

In all seriousness, I don't think we want to go back to this particular debate. We hashed all of this out over a year ago when we added Sig Items to the EP menu (in part to give non-patrons the option of getting one of the biggest benefit of being patrons, just via EP instead of money) and I have 0 desire to reopen that particular Pandora's Box.

As far as how to handle Sig Items, I think it's probably a good time for a poll. I'd vote in favor of allowing players to Sig Item-ify vehicles, robot armors, or power armors if their characters already own the items, whether by virtue of gaining them as part of their frameworks or by adventuring. This would exclude party vehicles awarded by GMs (those would belong to the groups, not any individual character), but could allow for individual characters who capture enemy vehicles to make them into signature aspects of those characters going forward. Keep in mind that characters outside of certain IFs are not likely to have the requisite skills to use signature vehicles effectively, requiring the investment of Advances or upgrade slots in order to make the most of their sig items, which I think balances some of the concerns raised above.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:16 am

While this was brought up in the past it caused a lot of issue, because Patreons usually pay for two things; Extra Character slot, and Signature Items.

Without the EP option it becomes a pay-to-win situation instead of pay-to-advance situation which would cause all non-patrons to leave. Right now being a patron patron gives you a 3 to 6 month edge. But then it would be an absolute edge that could not be matched and would cause people to leave.



PS: I STILL LIKE SOREN'S LAST WRITE UP
Shaping Worlds Together
.
The 99's Game Master Bennies 6
  • +6 Players
Nightbane Game Master Bennies 4 +1 Golden Benny
Recurring NPCs (all but Grimm reset to 0 at end of each Quarter)
  • Danielson 0 (spent to set the stage)
    Grimm 1 (luck) elan, Against the Odds, The Winning Side
    Harvest 0
    Marry Against the Odds 0
    Michael Against the Odds 0
Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 5
  • +7 Players
    +2 Sidekicks
    +1 Joker for Grudge
    -1 For Grudge Match Reroll Damage
    -1 For Grudge Match to EE Agility
    -1 Extra Effort dramatic Task to stop hackers
    +1 Joker for Grudge Match
    -1 Grudge Match - that little bastard was fast
    -1 Grudge Match - perhaps unfairly fast
Nemesis and The Pursuit
Nemesis (Captain - Temporal Wizard) 2
Royce (Second Officer - Charmer) 4 Elan
Grudge (Security - Brute) 1 Unlucky -1 for Grudge Match Extra Effort
Hiesh (Tactical - Illusionist) 2
Iasah (Ally - Godling) 4 Elan
Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
Castruccio and the Naruni
Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:26 am

I can see that...

And it looks good on paper, but I don’t think it really has that effect. Getting all my char slots was a slog, and that was with using diamond coupons and free EP. (including that 50 and an erroneous 35).

I imagine it would be much harder to get half of the slots I have, much less a single sig item without being a patron. Not to mention not being able to pay even for extra bennies or the extra little cool bonuses you can snag through EP.

If I had stopped getting char slots sooner, I could have a sig item + patron item on each of my chars and still probably have enough EP left over to get buck wild with the EP menu. Whereas a non patron (or even maybe a bronze or silver) in the same timeframe would still be unlocking those slots.

I think it widens a the gap it’s meant to bridge.

But, apparently my opinion is more than unpopular: totally support Soren’s proposed fix.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:59 am

Koshnek wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:26 am
blah blah blah...
I imagine it would be much harder to get half of the slots I have, much less a single sig item without being a patron. Not to mention not being able to pay even for extra bennies or the extra little cool bonuses you can snag through EP.

If I had stopped getting char slots sooner, I could have a sig item + patron item on each of my chars and still probably have enough EP left over to get buck wild with the EP menu. Whereas a non patron (or even maybe a bronze or silver) in the same timeframe would still be unlocking those slots.

I think it widens a the gap it’s meant to bridge.

more blah...
Yep, I was just thinking without being a Patron it takes 6 months to get a second character slot. The gap stays there after that and widens as more slots open up for you.

I know when I first came I did a lot of recruiting and a lot of projects offered up to snag EP also. I would guess from stuff like that I gained about 10 or maybe 15. So there are ways to earn EP without being a patron. Players have to decide to contribute through either GMing, projects, or patron. Honestly I think that is fine, it is capitalism. Those who contribute are rewarded, those who use the services without contributing only gain basic income and options.
Shaping Worlds Together
.
The 99's Game Master Bennies 6
  • +6 Players
Nightbane Game Master Bennies 4 +1 Golden Benny
Recurring NPCs (all but Grimm reset to 0 at end of each Quarter)
  • Danielson 0 (spent to set the stage)
    Grimm 1 (luck) elan, Against the Odds, The Winning Side
    Harvest 0
    Marry Against the Odds 0
    Michael Against the Odds 0
Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 5
  • +7 Players
    +2 Sidekicks
    +1 Joker for Grudge
    -1 For Grudge Match Reroll Damage
    -1 For Grudge Match to EE Agility
    -1 Extra Effort dramatic Task to stop hackers
    +1 Joker for Grudge Match
    -1 Grudge Match - that little bastard was fast
    -1 Grudge Match - perhaps unfairly fast
Nemesis and The Pursuit
Nemesis (Captain - Temporal Wizard) 2
Royce (Second Officer - Charmer) 4 Elan
Grudge (Security - Brute) 1 Unlucky -1 for Grudge Match Extra Effort
Hiesh (Tactical - Illusionist) 2
Iasah (Ally - Godling) 4 Elan
Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
Castruccio and the Naruni
Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:01 am

@RFT , this is your party (you're the original poster). Do you want to put up a poll, or shall I?

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:10 am

@RFT, that’d be fine, but I hardly see many ep bounties available for players any more. Then again I was also mostly Mia for a quarter.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:23 am

Pursuit wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:01 am
@RFT , this is your party (you're the original poster). Do you want to put up a poll, or shall I?
Sure, please do.

Koshnek wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:10 am
@RFT, that’d be fine, but I hardly see many ep bounties available for players any more. Then again I was also mostly Mia for a quarter.
Usually just asking works. I asked for opportunities then @venatus vinco and @High Command generated them. Plus GMing is the single best way to earn EP
Shaping Worlds Together
.
The 99's Game Master Bennies 6
  • +6 Players
Nightbane Game Master Bennies 4 +1 Golden Benny
Recurring NPCs (all but Grimm reset to 0 at end of each Quarter)
  • Danielson 0 (spent to set the stage)
    Grimm 1 (luck) elan, Against the Odds, The Winning Side
    Harvest 0
    Marry Against the Odds 0
    Michael Against the Odds 0
Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 5
  • +7 Players
    +2 Sidekicks
    +1 Joker for Grudge
    -1 For Grudge Match Reroll Damage
    -1 For Grudge Match to EE Agility
    -1 Extra Effort dramatic Task to stop hackers
    +1 Joker for Grudge Match
    -1 Grudge Match - that little bastard was fast
    -1 Grudge Match - perhaps unfairly fast
Nemesis and The Pursuit
Nemesis (Captain - Temporal Wizard) 2
Royce (Second Officer - Charmer) 4 Elan
Grudge (Security - Brute) 1 Unlucky -1 for Grudge Match Extra Effort
Hiesh (Tactical - Illusionist) 2
Iasah (Ally - Godling) 4 Elan
Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
Castruccio and the Naruni
Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:45 am

The maybe we should post that somewhere? It doesn’t take much effort and might help someone. “If you would like to earn extra EP, contact your gm or an administrator to see if there are any tasks you can assist with.”

I don’t disagree about your GMing point, but...

1) Not everyone wants to, is comfortable with, or necessarily even enjoys GMing, so that is not a good scale to base the situation against.

2) we can only have so many GMs. There’s a limited number of players and many of those players are already GMs.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:26 am

Koshnek wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:45 am
The maybe we should post that somewhere? It doesn’t take much effort and might help someone. “If you would like to earn extra EP, contact your gm or an administrator to see if there are any tasks you can assist with.”

blah, blah, blah...
Yeah. That is a really good idea. Go do that, maybe in the Recruitment forum.
Shaping Worlds Together
.
The 99's Game Master Bennies 6
  • +6 Players
Nightbane Game Master Bennies 4 +1 Golden Benny
Recurring NPCs (all but Grimm reset to 0 at end of each Quarter)
  • Danielson 0 (spent to set the stage)
    Grimm 1 (luck) elan, Against the Odds, The Winning Side
    Harvest 0
    Marry Against the Odds 0
    Michael Against the Odds 0
Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 5
  • +7 Players
    +2 Sidekicks
    +1 Joker for Grudge
    -1 For Grudge Match Reroll Damage
    -1 For Grudge Match to EE Agility
    -1 Extra Effort dramatic Task to stop hackers
    +1 Joker for Grudge Match
    -1 Grudge Match - that little bastard was fast
    -1 Grudge Match - perhaps unfairly fast
Nemesis and The Pursuit
Nemesis (Captain - Temporal Wizard) 2
Royce (Second Officer - Charmer) 4 Elan
Grudge (Security - Brute) 1 Unlucky -1 for Grudge Match Extra Effort
Hiesh (Tactical - Illusionist) 2
Iasah (Ally - Godling) 4 Elan
Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
Castruccio and the Naruni
Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:31 am

Dang it, who ever voted for four needs to change their vote to 3.
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Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:33 am

RFT wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:31 am
Dang it, who ever voted for four needs to change their vote to 3.
Respect the democratic process!! :D

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:35 am

Is the idea that #4 would allow you to add Sig Item abilities to vehicles/PA/RA that a GM gave you outside of character generation?
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:38 am

Tribe of One wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:35 am
Is the idea that #4 would allow you to add Sig Item abilities to vehicles/PA/RA that a GM gave you outside of character generation?
Yes, or that your character managed to scrounge the funds together to buy (which is more likely for a vehicle, obviously, than for a suit of PA or RA).

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Stoic » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 am

If someone uses the Rich edge to buy a vehicle at character creation, can it be used for a signature item?
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:12 am

Stoic wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 am
If someone uses the Rich edge to buy a vehicle at character creation, can it be used for a signature item?
My reading of #3 is that yes, that would be allowed.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Venatus Vinco » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:19 am

Stoic wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 am
If someone uses the Rich edge to buy a vehicle at character creation, can it be used for a signature item?
Works for me.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:40 am

Stoic wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 am
If someone uses the Rich edge to buy a vehicle at character creation, can it be used for a signature item?
I had figured that would fall under #4 (buying the vehicle).

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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:53 am

Pursuit wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:40 am
Stoic wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:58 am
If someone uses the Rich edge to buy a vehicle at character creation, can it be used for a signature item?
I had figured that would fall under #4 (buying the vehicle).
I think that would fall under #4.
But in the case of a MARS who rolled F&G roll it would be allowed in 3 & 4. As F&G is part of your framework.
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Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:59 am

RFT wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:53 am

I think that would fall under #4.
But in the case of a MARS who rolled F&G roll it would be allowed in 3 & 4. As F&G is part of your framework.
Yup. That’s how I was thinking of it, too.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:35 am

A Vehicle obtained via Rich could be a Sig Item under Option 3, although it would probably be clearer if the language was cleaned up to just say "items and vehicles you obtain during character creation," instead of referring to IF and MARS.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:04 pm

Tribe of One wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:35 am
A Vehicle obtained via Rich could be a Sig Item under Option 3, although it would probably be clearer if the language was cleaned up to just say "items and vehicles you obtain during character creation," instead of referring to IF and MARS.
#3 was drafted specifically to protect the “iconic” nature of vehicles gained from frameworks, as that seemed to be the concern of the folks who posted above. #4 would cover the Rich Edge.

If you can use Rich to get a vehicle and qualify for #3, is it limited to character generation? And if so, why (or why not)? A character could take Rich at Seasoned or Veteran and get a vehicle, after all. Would that still work for a Sig Item? And, if so, why would that work but not a mountaineer he acquired from gameplay?

Personally, I’m in #4 camp, so I don’t have an issue with using Rich to buy a vehicle and then Sig Item-ing it. I just don’t follow the logic as to why that would fall under option #3.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:27 pm

If you spend an Edge during character generation to get a vehicle, it's part of your IF/MARS, because you got the Edge as a part of your IF (which encompasses all of the character benefits/assets you get at creation). So, Rich taken at character creation = part of the IF. That would all be clearer if the language for Option 3 simply said items/vehicles/PA/RA "obtained through character creation."

I don't have a lot of heartburn over someone taking Rich later to get a vehicle to turn into a Sig Item (although if it's so "signature" why not take it at creation?) ... what I'm opposed to (and will vote against/disallow as a GM) is turning GM-derived vehicles/PA/RA into Sig Items. Whether they are handed out directly or paid for with credits the GM handed out.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:47 pm

Tribe of One wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:27 pm
If you spend an Edge during character generation to get a vehicle, it's part of your IF/MARS, because you got the Edge as a part of your IF (which encompasses all of the character benefits/assets you get at creation). So, Rich taken at character creation = part of the IF. That would all be clearer if the language for Option 3 simply said items/vehicles/PA/RA "obtained through character creation."

I don't have a lot of heartburn over someone taking Rich later to get a vehicle to turn into a Sig Item (although if it's so "signature" why not take it at creation?) ... what I'm opposed to (and will vote against/disallow as a GM) is turning GM-derived vehicles/PA/RA into Sig Items. Whether they are handed out directly or paid for with credits the GM handed out.
I don’t buy the logic that your IF extends to Edges purchased with Hindrances or for the free Human Edge, but, again, I’m in camp #4, so this isn’t really my fight. Someone who feels strongly about this want to weigh in?

As far as not taking an Edge at creation, some characters grow in ways you don’t expect when you sit down to first stat them up. No reason they can’t find their Signature Item later in their adventuring life, right?

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:11 pm

If you go #3, go #3. If you go #4 go #4.

If anyone can get a signature vehicle by taking rich at any point then there’s no reason to go operator.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:21 pm

Koshnek wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:11 pm
If you go #3, go #3. If you go #4 go #4.

If anyone can get a signature vehicle by taking rich at any point then there’s no reason to go operator.
Anyone willing to spend a starting (Born a Hero) Edge on Rich for an unarmed vehicle could turn it into a Sig Item under #3. They're spending limited, non-fiat resources to make it part of their character. There's still plenty of reason to go operator, as that's the only way AFAIK to get an armed vehicle at creation. (At least well-armed -- one or two of the bikes/hovercycles might come with a light laser or something.)
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:38 pm

Tribe of One wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:21 pm
Anyone willing to spend a starting (Born a Hero) Edge on Rich for an unarmed vehicle could turn it into a Sig Item under #3. They're spending limited, non-fiat resources to make it part of their character.
That’s #4. If you like this idea, vote #4! #4 for more!

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:51 pm

Pursuit wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:38 pm
Tribe of One wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:21 pm
Anyone willing to spend a starting (Born a Hero) Edge on Rich for an unarmed vehicle could turn it into a Sig Item under #3. They're spending limited, non-fiat resources to make it part of their character.
That’s #4. If you like this idea, vote #4! #4 for more!
That is not, in any way, shape or form, #4.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:30 pm

The whole point of Option 3 is it specifically excludes Vehicles, PA and RA unless they are part of your IF.

Racial edges and Hindrance points are not part of a Iconic Framework, they are separate steps in the creation process.
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Rick 2 [/list]
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Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:31 pm

As it stands, #3 is not written to cover vehicles purchased with the Rich Edge: just stuff from an IF or a MARS framework (which would include things from HJ or F&G rolls). That was intentional, in order to protect the iconic nature of that stuff for the folks who care about that.

If what you want is to change the poll wording, then get people to agree on the poll wording and we can do all this again with different options. But, as written, if you want to use Rich to buy a vehicle and then Sig Item it, your only option is #4.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:53 pm

Pursuit wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:31 pm
As it stands, #3 is not written to cover vehicles purchased with the Rich Edge: just stuff from an IF or a MARS framework (which would include things from HJ or F&G rolls). That was intentional, in order to protect the iconic nature of that stuff for the folks who care about that.

If what you want is to change the poll wording, then get people to agree on the poll wording and we can do all this again with different options. But, as written, if you want to use Rich to buy a vehicle and then Sig Item it, your only option is #4.
I don't think your poll language accurately captured the conversation that preceded it, then. The ideas discussed were vehicles/PA/RA gained during character creation, vs. those gained from a GM during play.

And no, even under your overly-narrow reading of #3, you could pick up Rich from an HJ roll (several give a choice of Background Edge) or open Edge (from the PCO MARS package, etc.) and it would be fine.

Regardless, I think the lack of consensus illustrates that we have some significant divisions. It may be best to just leave it alone (status quo, as far as what's been approved, limiting Sig Items to personal weapons/personal armor/Adventuring Gear/cybernetics). If someone wants a modified vehicle, PA or RA, they can just work with their GM on that, with the understanding that it likely wouldn't transfer to another game.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:10 pm

Anybody else think the language of the poll fails to adequately capture the discussion above? We can change it, if so.

I don’t see a need to table this. The majority agree that vehicles, PA and RA should be included in some capacity, and the narrower application of the proposed rule is ahead. I’d say give that a whirl for a Q or two and see if it needs revisiting.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:54 pm

I think it is 100% clear. You would have to ignore the normal definition of words to think it includes Rich.

"provided that any vehicle, Power Armor or Robot Armor must be part of a character's Iconic Framework or MARS Framework in order to turn it into a Signature Item"
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Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
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  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:04 pm

RFT wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:54 pm
I think it is 100% clear. You would have to ignore the normal definition of words to think it includes Rich.

"provided that any vehicle, Power Armor or Robot Armor must be part of a character's Iconic Framework or MARS Framework in order to turn it into a Signature Item"
Does that accurately reflect what you folks in camp #3 understood the conversation above to mean?

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Re: Signature Items

Post by John Smith » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:27 pm

So iconic framework includes anything defined by the iconic framework you choose yes? HJ or FG rolls? Just not free edges for humans or hinderance point selections.

Unfortunately I evened out the votes. Just don't get why it matters where the item comes from. Either you have one or your don't. The argument against seems to be more around that a ley line walker shouldn't have robot armor. Not that the robot armor they get shouldn't have a couple extra bonuses.

And I fundamentally disagree with the concept that characters can free move between games. There is too much hand waving toeing the line of what's allowed during creation of many characters that I really don't think most are interchangable between games. Especially when you add all the bonuses they get granted in big advancements and edges.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:52 pm

John -- it's the handwaving I want to avoid.

As it is, characters on site basically have two sets of "stuff" -- stuff they're entitled to, and stuff you get as a result of GM fiat/generosity.

"Stuff you're entitled to" includes racial abilities, Hindrances and related Edges/stat bumps, an IF, one advance (from the +5 XP) and, if you qualify, a Signature Item and patron items. That's the standard assumption, barring special circumstances/prohibitions for a specific campaign.

"Stuff the GM gives you" is everything else -- XP and related advances, loot, money to buy other loot, bonus table rolls, etc.

I'm simply opposed to crossing the streams, because I think it invites trouble, both in terms of setting expectations and any transitions between games/GMs. Whether a particular GM is generous or stingy shouldn't come into play with regard to "stuff you're entitled to." So the Sig Item should be limited to things you've obtained that way. Otherwise, folks are going to be unpleasantly surprised when the special snowflake item they wheedled out of one GM either doesn't pass muster in the Sig Item approval process or when they try to take it into another game.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:18 pm

Very good points Tribe.
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.
The 99's Game Master Bennies 6
  • +6 Players
Nightbane Game Master Bennies 4 +1 Golden Benny
Recurring NPCs (all but Grimm reset to 0 at end of each Quarter)
  • Danielson 0 (spent to set the stage)
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    Harvest 0
    Marry Against the Odds 0
    Michael Against the Odds 0
Phase World - The Remorseless Game Master Bennies 5
  • +7 Players
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    +1 Joker for Grudge
    -1 For Grudge Match Reroll Damage
    -1 For Grudge Match to EE Agility
    -1 Extra Effort dramatic Task to stop hackers
    +1 Joker for Grudge Match
    -1 Grudge Match - that little bastard was fast
    -1 Grudge Match - perhaps unfairly fast
Nemesis and The Pursuit
Nemesis (Captain - Temporal Wizard) 2
Royce (Second Officer - Charmer) 4 Elan
Grudge (Security - Brute) 1 Unlucky -1 for Grudge Match Extra Effort
Hiesh (Tactical - Illusionist) 2
Iasah (Ally - Godling) 4 Elan
Slip (Partial Cyborg - Pilot) 2
Rick 2 [/list]
Castruccio and the Naruni
Castruccio (Uteni - Contract Holder) 3 elan
  1. Opserv (Security - Repobot) 2
  2. Ultor (Security - Repobot) 2
  3. Indohc (Security - TW) 2
[/list]
Initiative Copy and Paste

Code: Select all

[b][color=#BF0000]Initiative in alphabetical order with players at the top, the in the same order with NPCs.
I will roll 1d56 for each of your initiative cards. I do not reroll duplicates, instead there are 2 extra Joker positions.
[list][*]Quick rerolls 20 or less
[*]Quickness with a Raise rerolls 28 or less
[*]53, 54, 55, 56 are considered Jokers
[*]Cards divisible by 4 are considered Clubs for hindrances affected by Clubs (excepting 56 which is a joker).[/list][/color][/b]
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:47 pm

Tribe of One wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:52 pm
John -- it's the handwaving I want to avoid.

As it is, characters on site basically have two sets of "stuff" -- stuff they're entitled to, and stuff you get as a result of GM fiat/generosity.

"Stuff you're entitled to" includes racial abilities, Hindrances and related Edges/stat bumps, an IF, one advance (from the +5 XP) and, if you qualify, a Signature Item and patron items. That's the standard assumption, barring special circumstances/prohibitions for a specific campaign.

"Stuff the GM gives you" is everything else -- XP and related advances, loot, money to buy other loot, bonus table rolls, etc.

I'm simply opposed to crossing the streams, because I think it invites trouble, both in terms of setting expectations and any transitions between games/GMs. Whether a particular GM is generous or stingy shouldn't come into play with regard to "stuff you're entitled to." So the Sig Item should be limited to things you've obtained that way. Otherwise, folks are going to be unpleasantly surprised when the special snowflake item they wheedled out of one GM either doesn't pass muster in the Sig Item approval process or when they try to take it into another game.
While I am less concerned with some of the potential issues you raise than you are, I can appreciate the “what you’re entitled to” vs “what you get from the GM” distinction you’re making, here. It’s a bit different from how the rest of us were talking around the issue.

If the folks in camp #3 are comfortable adding stuff you get from the Rich Edge to the list of allowable vehicles, PA, and RA based on Tribe’s reasoning here, we can update the poll. I’d even consider switching my vote to that if we needed a tiebreaker so we could get this done. I think the idea of signature armor is cool and that some folks on the site would benefit from it, even if it wouldn’t work for the player whose character inspired this discussion.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by RFT » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:32 pm

I do not want rich edge vehicles included. But this is not a hill I will fight on as I reserve the awesome power of 'nope'.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by John Smith » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:34 am

Tribe of One wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:52 pm
John -- it's the handwaving I want to avoid.

As it is, characters on site basically have two sets of "stuff" -- stuff they're entitled to, and stuff you get as a result of GM fiat/generosity.

"Stuff you're entitled to" includes racial abilities, Hindrances and related Edges/stat bumps, an IF, one advance (from the +5 XP) and, if you qualify, a Signature Item and patron items. That's the standard assumption, barring special circumstances/prohibitions for a specific campaign.

"Stuff the GM gives you" is everything else -- XP and related advances, loot, money to buy other loot, bonus table rolls, etc.

I'm simply opposed to crossing the streams, because I think it invites trouble, both in terms of setting expectations and any transitions between games/GMs. Whether a particular GM is generous or stingy shouldn't come into play with regard to "stuff you're entitled to." So the Sig Item should be limited to things you've obtained that way. Otherwise, folks are going to be unpleasantly surprised when the special snowflake item they wheedled out of one GM either doesn't pass muster in the Sig Item approval process or when they try to take it into another game.
This is an interesting statement. So if a person wanted to join my game with character from another game, it would be within the realm of expectation that I would say, great, but you have to remove all the advances you've taken since you started playing in that other game, since that XP was granted by another GM, along with any bonuses and interesting gear you've picked up? I see that being a very hard pill for most people to swallow already, and dont see why Sig items are somehow holier than the rest of that stuff (I get that they are purchased with EP, but that's really just a form of experience, and represents the time and effort I've put in playing the character, just like XP does). The "create a new sig item" option when switching games seems to properly handle that if necessary.

But in truth, I guess I'm fundamentally disagreeing with the concept that characters are mobile between games. There is too much negotiating between players and their GM when they create characters (in some cases) to think that a new GM would automatically approve any character as previously created.

Honestly, I think we are debating the very rare situations anyway. Who here gives up the opportunity to make a new character and instead moves a character from one game to a new game?

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:39 am

Looks like we're going to need a fresh vote, with a focus on the varied options. I THINK this list covers all the different choices:

"Power Armor, Robot Armor and vehicles may be chosen as Signature Items if--"

A: "--the PC is from an IF that explicitly lists the desired item as part of its features."
B: "--the PC is from an IF that explicitly lists the desired item, OR acquired it from a Fortune & Glory roll, or who took Rich as part of their free PCO Edges."
C: "--the PC is from an IF that explicitly lists the desired item, OR acquired it from a Fortune & Glory roll, or took Rich as one of their creation Edges and selected to trade two HJ rolls for a vehicle."
D: "--the PC has the gear already, regardless of how it was acquired."

(I don't see any reason to draw a difference between someone who gets it in salvage, someone who saves the money and buys it outright, or someone who takes the Rich Edge after creation to get a vehicle.)

To clarify the thinking on B & C:

B makes it so that the Vehicle or Armor unit is part of the character's Iconic Role--if you do a PCO build to get Rich and thus get a free vehicle, that's part of your character's professional identity as much as any Fortune & Glory roll. It's story-based thinking.

C is more of a game-balance rather than story role approach--since the options listed are all ones that would entail burning a 'Born a Hero' Edge-slot to take Rich (as opposed to taking the HJ table result that gives you a Background Edge, or taking it as part of an Advance, either as part of MARS or later in the game), there's an actual opportunity-cost to taking this build.

D basically is the 'screw it, let the players do what they want, so long as they got the thing legitimately' option. I don't care for it, personally, but obviously it was popular enough to win half the votes the first time through, so it should still be included.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:57 am

Freemage wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:39 am
Looks like we're going to need a fresh vote, with a focus on the varied options. I THINK this list covers all the different choices:

"Power Armor, Robot Armor and vehicles may be chosen as Signature Items if--"

A: "--the PC is from an IF that explicitly lists the desired item as part of its features."
B: "--the PC is from an IF that explicitly lists the desired item, OR acquired it from a Fortune & Glory roll, or who took Rich as part of their free PCO Edges."
C: "--the PC is from an IF that explicitly lists the desired item, OR acquired it from a Fortune & Glory roll, or took Rich as one of their creation Edges and selected to trade two HJ rolls for a vehicle."
D: "--the PC has the gear already, regardless of how it was acquired."

(I don't see any reason to draw a difference between someone who gets it in salvage, someone who saves the money and buys it outright, or someone who takes the Rich Edge after creation to get a vehicle.)

To clarify the thinking on B & C:

B makes it so that the Vehicle or Armor unit is part of the character's Iconic Role--if you do a PCO build to get Rich and thus get a free vehicle, that's part of your character's professional identity as much as any Fortune & Glory roll. It's story-based thinking.

C is more of a game-balance rather than story role approach--since the options listed are all ones that would entail burning a 'Born a Hero' Edge-slot to take Rich (as opposed to taking the HJ table result that gives you a Background Edge, or taking it as part of an Advance, either as part of MARS or later in the game), there's an actual opportunity-cost to taking this build.

D basically is the 'screw it, let the players do what they want, so long as they got the thing legitimately' option. I don't care for it, personally, but obviously it was popular enough to win half the votes the first time through, so it should still be included.
What if a character gets a free Background Edge on an HJ table and chooses Rich (per your note on C, above)? Where would that fall?

Thanks for putting this together.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Alecto » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:33 am

I'm not officially part of this discussion, but just wanted to say that characters do sometimes migrate. I did...and in fact probably will again.

Sometimes games end before I'm 'done' with a character.

That said, when I migrate a character, I do so with the full expectation that modifications to suit the new game will most likely have to be made. What I'm interested in preserving is the 'spirit' of the character. The specific mechanics are often malleable. For example, I was initially going to transfer Whisper from the Nameless to the 3rd SET. When I was planning that, I changed IF and basically rebuilt Whisper from the ground up, because the GM of the 3rd SET doesn't like the ARES IF. This was not upsetting to me. In the end I went with a new character, but it wasn't because of the redesign work.

So if I had a character with GM-granted perks or even experience, and switched games, my first question for the new GM would be...is this stuff ok? Do I need to respec?

It's not a huge deal, for me at least. Just wanted to add a little player perspective here.
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The Fury - Signature Item
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Full environment
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Tribe of One » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:03 am

This is getting exhausting -- I'm edging closer and closer to Jon's position of "get rid of Signature Items altogether."

Regardless, the current poll needs to finish before you start carving up the "stuff gained at creation" into multiple variations, otherwise you're diluting the vote and handing it to the "put it on anything" crowd, who have, as of now, lost the popular vote. As shown, the majority want it limited in some fashion to items gained either through an IF or otherwise at creation. Once we're set on that, you can debate the minor permutations ...

TLDR: Option D needs to be tossed, because that idea failed before you started carving up the "limits" option.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by John Smith » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:16 am

Alecto wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:33 am
I'm not officially part of this discussion, but just wanted to say that characters do sometimes migrate. I did...and in fact probably will again.

Sometimes games end before I'm 'done' with a character.

That said, when I migrate a character, I do so with the full expectation that modifications to suit the new game will most likely have to be made. What I'm interested in preserving is the 'spirit' of the character. The specific mechanics are often malleable. For example, I was initially going to transfer Whisper from the Nameless to the 3rd SET. When I was planning that, I changed IF and basically rebuilt Whisper from the ground up, because the GM of the 3rd SET doesn't like the ARES IF. This was not upsetting to me. In the end I went with a new character, but it wasn't because of the redesign work.

So if I had a character with GM-granted perks or even experience, and switched games, my first question for the new GM would be...is this stuff ok? Do I need to respec?

It's not a huge deal, for me at least. Just wanted to add a little player perspective here.
Appreciated!

Yeah I'm sure it happens. Just seems like the exception more than the rule. Our COO said something a while back that I loved about making rules for the norm, and making exceptions for the rules when needed. If tweaks are needed, I don't see why SIG item tweaks couldn't be included.
Tribe of One wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:03 am
This is getting exhausting -- I'm edging closer and closer to Jon's position of "get rid of Signature Items altogether."
New goal! Drag this out until everyone wants to get rid of Signature items :).

Lol JK.

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Koshnek » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:10 am

@Tribe of One Yes! Join the team. No sig items, no need to vote for how to apply a signature to which items.

@Alecto everyone has a voice in house rules proposals! Thank you for sharing your opinion. Feel free to chip In to any proposals put forth.

Edit: So are we making a new poll with updated options? Because if we are let’s get it over with and re-voted upon.
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Re: Signature Items

Post by Pursuit » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:04 am

Koshnek wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:10 am

Edit: So are we making a new poll with updated options? Because if we are let’s get it over with and re-voted upon.
Such a rush. It's been less than two days!

And, yes, I believe @Freemage is going to make a new poll in a new thread. He just wanted to get the language in front of folks beforehand in case anyone had differing opinions about what the poll should say (which, of course, they did).

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Re: Signature Items

Post by Freemage » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:36 am

Tribe of One wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:03 am
This is getting exhausting -- I'm edging closer and closer to Jon's position of "get rid of Signature Items altogether."

Regardless, the current poll needs to finish before you start carving up the "stuff gained at creation" into multiple variations, otherwise you're diluting the vote and handing it to the "put it on anything" crowd, who have, as of now, lost the popular vote. As shown, the majority want it limited in some fashion to items gained either through an IF or otherwise at creation. Once we're set on that, you can debate the minor permutations ...

TLDR: Option D needs to be tossed, because that idea failed before you started carving up the "limits" option.
At the time I wrote the list of options, the last time I checked, "Put it on anything" and "restricted" were pretty much tied. Now it's 8/5, and I agree, "put it on anything" is dead.

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